Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

All one inquiry


Displaying posts 871 - 882 of 882 in total
Wed, 07 Aug 2019 #871
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

I have not kept up with all of the conversation here but I will write something about something just now discovered.

Without sentience there is no experiencing. As seen here sentience is not material. Psychological suffering is something when present that is being experienced. So it is a qualia just as the color red when it is being experienced is a qualia. Qualae are unexplainable, as is sentience though these have some connection with mater in the brain. Physical pain is a qualae. The origin of its material aspect is in the process of biological evolution. Without physical pain complex organisms would not survive. Organisms without self identity would also not survive. So can we discover how these qualities are functional for individual survival? How is it that psychological suffering has come to exist?

That human beings are tribal and that there is a strugle for dominence so that one leader can control the tribe, the drive for status, the pain in loosing status , these are involved. The loss of belonging and the loss of status involve psychological suffering, pain.

Recently experienced these., but seeing all of this has cleared it.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 07 Aug 2019 #872
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
And this image-making depends on the separation between a 'thinker' and the 'thoughts'

It may sound odd, but it seems that I have never actually made this precise connection. But now I see it as true. I see it not by making some effort to see it, but by pausing, by letting space (silence) be, so the seeing can take place. And we shall see, perhaps, what comes of this seeing.

Dan McDermott wrote:
It seems to me that there has to be some sort of 'initiation' for someone to become interested in these 'ideas'. Why some and not others, I have no idea,

I feel everyone is trapped in thought. And all effort to escape from this prison is also thought, and so a continuation of the prison, but this is not generally seen.

I came upon this analogy recently. A house is the walls, the roof, the frame, the floor, etc. Is there a house apart from all the components? i think it is obvious that there is nothing that has an independent existence, separate from all the parts. And is it not the same with mind? There is thought, feeling, fear, desire, pain, pleasure ....... and there is no "me" separate from all these things.

But somehow the mind has convinced itself that there IS a separate being (that somehow having much to do with the mind's desire for security), with the consequence that we think that we can act ON the mind. So much this is taken for granted, and this makes up so much of people's lives. But as we have said, all the effort, all the struggle, gets nowhere - except for producing conflict.

To really see this is truly revolutionary.

Dan McDermott wrote:
Seeing through the falseness of that separation again and again is as has been said a sort of "death". And I don't see any of this having an effect on anyone else except possibly myself...but that doesn't matter because for me, it is the 'right' thing to do.

I understand, Dan. But this seeing might be having an effect, directly in human consciousness. Of course one doesn't act with this in mind. In fact one doesn't act at all, not deliberately, not with will.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 08 Aug 2019 #873
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Peter: >Peter Kesting wrote:
Organisms without self identity would also not survive.

This doesn’t seem correct Peter. An insect or a mollusk has self identity?

So can we discover how these qualities are functional for individual survival? How is it that psychological suffering has come to exist?

K. as most of us know, relates this to thought.

That human beings are tribal and that there is a strugle for dominence so that one leader can control the tribe, the drive for status, the pain in loosing status , these are involved.

Isn’t this related to thought....images which divide....the self image and my image of you? Not all animal species are tribal. But in humans there’s the image of the leader who gives physical security to the members of the tribe. I need to look further into this issue as it’s always interested me. How violence begins....war. K related ALL violence to thought...the outer as well as the inner conflict/violence. Here’s the QOTD which perhaps touches on this: “When the mind seeks safety, security - i.e. something concrete on which it can anchor - it has recourse to a conclusion or to a hypothesis.” (K)

The loss of belonging and the loss of status involve psychological suffering, pain.

True, but this is ultimately due to thinking, as I see it.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 08 Aug 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 08 Aug 2019 #874
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

Tom,

Organisms don't eat themselves or intentionally damage their parts. They need to act as if they can distinguish what is self from what is exterior to self. A robot with advanced capacities would be designed to do the same even though any of these, robot, mollusk, insect, worm, might not be sentient.

K relates this to thought.

Hunger and sexual activity, mothers love, prejudice etc. are not just thought. Many behaviors are in part wired in.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 08 Aug 2019 #875
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Organisms don't eat themselves or intentionally damage their parts. They need to act as if they can distinguish what is self from what is exterior to self.

But this is instinct, no? A clam is not aware of itself or anything external to itself, is it? What about the cat who attacks his own tail as if it’s another animal, separate from himself?

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 08 Aug 2019 #876
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette wrote @844:
You and I see and understand that thought is suffering, don't we?

Yet thought does not see this, otherwise it would not enter into the problem - the problem that is itself, in fact. Is this what K calls "ignorance"?

Huguette . wrote:
Why does it follow that “we” (thought) can’t see that thought has no value in terms of ending suffering? Can’t thought legitimately correctly appropriately rightly say, “I can teach you how to swim, I can sweep the floor, I can’t flap my arms and fly, I can’t end suffering/thought”, and so on?

What is your own answer to this question, Huguette, if you have one?

Huguette . wrote:
We were educated to thinking that I and thought and suffering were all separate things.

We were indeed. Probably this conditioning goes deeper that just our education. Whatever the cause, the unconscious assumption is there, always acting, so that "I" keep on trying to act on thought, act on suffering.

Yes, feeling this is the essence of ignorance.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 08 Aug 2019 #877
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Hunger and sexual activity, mothers love, prejudice etc. are not just thought. Many behaviors are in part wired in.

Prejudice is related to thought and memory. Dogs and cats, or cows or horses, don’t experience prejudice do they? Do the slim cows make jokes about the fat ones....or the brown ones hate the black ones?

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 09 Aug 2019 #878
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote @846:
At the center there is always this ‘I’ who wants to act upon the disorder...the problem. And we can see, I think, that this ‘I’ is thinking itself....nothing more. I need to explore this further before continuing. It’s probably the crucial part of Ks ‘teaching’..

Yes. I feel no doubt about the I being thinking itself. And yes, I also feel it is the crucial part of K's teachings. It is crucial to the transformation he spoke of; seeing the fact of it seems to be the key to freedom. But the mere description means very little. It has to be experienced, more and more deeply.

This is meditation throughout the day and night. Something with tremendous urgency.

Here is something K said in Greece 1956 - not that the truth of it depends on K:

What happens when we think? Without realizing it, the mind divides itself, and then one section of the mind investigates the other, giving an answer out of its own accumulated experience, or according to the accepted experiences of others. This effort makes up what we call thinking, and the resulting answer is but the projection of a conditioned mind.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Fri, 09 Aug 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 09 Aug 2019 #879
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

Tom

Don't we need to discover, or to distinguish what part of behavior is instinct (wired in) and what part is thought?

I think there have been experiments that show that human beings to some extent unconsciously prefer others that are most like them over others that are different. A part of that is instinctive. Boys hang with boys, girls hang with girls.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 09 Aug 2019 #880
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

Predominately, boys prefer boy toys, girls prefer girl toys

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 09 Aug 2019 #881
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Peter: I think there have been experiments that show that human beings to some extent unconsciously prefer others that are most like them over others that are different.

Probably why K spoke about the awakening of intelligence. I may prefer pizza over a salad , but if you serve me a salad at dinner I don’t have to shoot you ;)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 09 Aug 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 16 Aug 2019 #882
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5194 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti has said that "Thought is outside". He sometimes mentions that the esquimaux word for thought means "outside". Here is the one specific quote I have found on this:

Thought is the very essence of fragmentation. Thought is from the outside. It can turn inward, but it is still outside.

At first glance, it might seem that thought is very much inside, although clearly it spreads outside, and in fact creates the world that we know. Does anyone have any suggestion about what K meant by "thought is outside"?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 871 - 882 of 882 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)