Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Krishnamurti's influence in human conscousness


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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

From chapter 8 of "The Ending of Time", entitled "Can insight be awakened in another"

In the extract below, generally "Y" represents the ordinary man, and "X" K himself.

DB: Yes. So what happens?

K: How is that immensity operating on `Y'?

DB: Are you saying that there is some more direct action?

K: Either there is more direct action, or `X' is doing something totally different to affect the consciousness of man.

DB: What could this be?

K: Because "X' is not"satisfied' with merely preaching and talking. That immensity which he is must have an effect, must do something.

DB: Are you saying "must' in the sense of the feeling of needing to do it, or are you saying"must' in the sense of necessity?

K: It must.

DB: It must necessarily do so. But how will it affect mankind? You see, when you say this, it would suggest to people that there is some sort of extrasensory effect that spreads.

K: That is what I am trying to capture.

DB: Yes.

K: That is what I am trying to convey.

DB: Not merely through the words, through the activities or gestures.

K: Let's leave the activity alone. That is simple. It is not just that, because that immensity must...

DB: ...Necessarily act? There is a more direct action?

K: No, no. All right. That immensity necessarily has other activities.

DB: Other activities at other levels?

K: Yes, other activities. This has been translated in the Hindu teachings as various degrees of consciousness.

DB: There are different levels or degrees of acting. K: All that too is a very small affair. What do you say, Sir?

DB: Well, since the consciousness emerges from the ground, this activity is affecting all mankind from the ground.

K: Yes.

DB: You see many people will find this very difficult to understand.

K: I am not interested in many people. I want to understand you, "X' and me,"Y'. That ground, that immensity, is not limited to such a petty little affair. It couldn't be.

DB: The ground includes physically the whole universe.

K: Yes, the whole universe, and to reduce all that to...

DB: ...these little activities...

K: ...is all so silly.

DB: I think that raises the question of what is the significance of mankind in the universe, or in the ground?

K: Yes, that's it.

DB: Because even the best of these little things that we have been doing have very little significance on that scale. Right?

K: Yes, this is just opening the chapter. I think that `X' is doing something - not doing, but by his very existence...

DB: ...he is making something possible?

K: Yes. When you read of Einstein, he has made something possible, which man hadn't discovered before.

DB: We can see that fairly easily because it works through the usual channels of society.

K: Yes, I understand that. What is "X' bringing apart from the little things? Putting it into words makes it sound wrong."X' has that immense intelligence, that energy, that something, and he must operate at a much greater level than one can possibly conceive, which must affect the consciousness of those who are living in darkness. DB: Possibly so. The question is, will this effect show in any way? You know, manifestly.

K: Apparently not. If you hear the television or radio news, and know what is happening all over the world, apparently it is not doing so.

DB: That is what is difficult, and a matter of great concern.

K: But it must have an effect. It has to.

DB: Why do you say it has to?

K: Because light must affect darkness.

DB: perhaps `Y' might say that, living in darkness, he is not sure that there is such an effect. He might say perhaps there is, but I want to see it manifest. Not seeing anything and still being in darkness, he then asks, what shall I do?

K: I understand that. So are you saying that `X's' only activity is just writing, teaching etc?

DB: No. Merely that it may well be that the activity is much greater, but it doesn't show. If only we could see it!

K: How would it be shown? How would `Y', who wants proof of it, see it?

DB: `Y' might say something like this: many people have made a similar statement, and some of them have obviously been wrong. But one wants to say it could be true. You see, until now, I think the things we have said make sense, and they follow to a certain extent.

K: Yes, I understand all that.

DB: And now you say something which goes much further. Other people have said things like that and one feels that they were on the wrong track, that they, or at least some of these people, were fooling themselves.

K: No. `X' says, we are being very logical.

DB: Yes, but at this stage logic will not carry us any further.

K: It is very reasonable! We have been through all that. So "X's, mind is not acting in an irrational way. DB: You could say that, having seen the thing was reasonable, so far,"Y' may have some confidence that it could go further.

K: Yes, that is what I am trying to say.

DB: Of course, there is no proof.

K: No.

DB: So could we explore?

K: That is hat I am trying to do.

Q: What about the other activities of "X'? We said he has the function of teaching, but also that"X' has other activities.

K: He must have. Necessarily must.

Q: But what?

K: I don't know; we are trying to find that out.

DB: You are saying that somehow he makes possible an activity of the ground in the whole consciousness of mankind which would not have been possible without him.

K: Yes.

Q: His contact with "Y' is not only verbal."Y' listens but there is some other quality...

K: Yes, but "X' says all that is a petty little affair. That is, of course, understood, but"X' says there is something much greater.

Q: The effect of `X' is perhaps far greater than can be put in words.

K: We are trying to find out what that greater is that must necessarily be operating.

Q: Is it something that appears in the daily life of `X'?

K: Yes. In his daily life `X' is apparently doing fairly small things - teaching, writing, book-keeping, or whatever. But is that all? It seems so silly.

DB: Are you saying that in the daily life `X' does not look so different from anybody else?

K: No, apparently not. DB: But there is something else going on which does not show. Right?

K: That's it. When `X' talks it may be different, he may say things differently but...

DB: ...That is not fundamental, because there are so many people who say things differently from others.

K: I know. But the man who has walked through all that right from the beginning! If such a man has the whole of that energy to call upon, to reduce it all to these petty little things seems ridiculous.

DB: Let me ask a question: Why does the ground require this man to operate on mankind? Why can't the ground, as it were, operate directly on mankind to clear things up?

K: Ah, just a minute, just a minute. Are you asking why the ground demands action?

DB: Why does it require a particular man to affect mankind?

K: Oh, that I can easily explain. It is part of existence, like the stars.

Q: Can the immensity act directly on mankind? Does it have to inform a man to enter the consciousness of mankind?

K: We are talking about something else. I want to find out if `X' says, I am not going to be reduced only to writing and talking; that is too small and petty. And the other question is, why does the ground need this man? It doesn't need him.

DB: But when he is here, the ground will use him.

K: That is so.

DB: Well, would it be possible that the ground could do something to clear this up?

K: That is what I want to find out. That is why I am saying, in different words, that the ground doesn't need the man, but the man has touched the ground.

DB: Yes. K: So the ground is using him, let's say employing him. He is part of that movement. Is that all? Do you follow what I mean? Am I asking the wrong questions? Why should he do anything? Except this?

DB: Well, perhaps he does nothing.

K: That very doing nothing, may be the doing.

DB: Doing nothing makes possible the action of the ground. It may be that. In doing nothing which has any specified aim...

K: That's right. No specified content which can be translated into human terms.

DB: Yes, but still he is supremely active in doing nothing.

Q: Is there an action which is beyond time, for that man?

K: He is that...

Q: Then we cannot ask for a result from that man.

K: He is not asking for results.

Q: But `Y' is asking for a result.

K: No. Perhaps `X' says, I am concerned to talk, etc., which is a very small thing. But there is a vast field which must affect the whole of mankind.

DB: There is an analogy which may not be very good but we can consider it. In chemistry, a catalyst makes possible a certain action without itself taking part, but merely by being what it is.

K: Yes, is that what is happening? Even that is a small affair.

DB: Yes.

Q: And even there `Y' would say it isn't happening, because the world is still in a mess. So is there a truth in the world for the activity of that man?

K: "X' says he is sorry, but that is no question at all I am not interested in proving anything. It isn't a mathematical or a technical problem to be shown and proved.X' says that he has walked from the beginning of man to the very end of man, and that there is a movement which is timeless. The ground which is the universe, the cosmos, everything. And the ground doesn't need the man, but the man has come upon it. And he is still a man in the world, who says, I write and do something or other,' not to prove the ground, not to do anything."X' does that just out of compassion. But there is a much greater movement which necessarily plays a part in the world.

Q: Does the greater movement play a part through `X'?

K: Obviously, "X' says that there is something else operating which cannot possibly be put into words. He asks,What am I to do?' There is nothing which a man like Y' will understand. He will iMmediately translate it into some kind of illusory thing. But"X' says there is something else. Otherwise it is all so childish.

DB: I think the general view which people are developing now is that the universe has no meaning, that it moves any old way, things just happen, and none of them has any meaning.

K: None of them has meaning for the man who is here, but the man who is there, speaking relatively, says it is full of meaning, and not invented by thought.

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Thu, 02 Aug 2018 #2
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

X' has that immense intelligence, that energy, that something, and he must operate at a much greater level than one can possibly conceive, which must affect the consciousness of those who are living in darkness.

DB: Possibly so. The question is, will this effect show in any way? You know, manifestly.

K: Apparently not. If you hear the television or radio news, and know what is happening all over the world, apparently it is not doing so.

Interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing, Clive. So whatever the effect of ‘X’ on the world of man...the mind of man living in ‘the stream’, K admits that it doesn’t show. I’ll have to leave it at that. For me, K’s words and talks have had an immense effect. I can’t speak about any other effect. It’s simply unknown, and we only have K’s word that it is something real.

Let it Be

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