Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Living and Dying in the same moment


Displaying posts 31 - 45 of 45 in total
Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #31
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So, you are suggesting that perhaps I deliberately mislead people, Vikram, and you do not hesitate to post this suggestion on a public forum. As I have asked you previously, how do you “know” this? On what basis do make what amounts to an accusation, or at least a speculation?

Sir, my response is still going to be the same; as it was the last time you asked this.

Clive Elwell wrote:
And once again you turn a discussion from an inquiry into human consciousness, the human mind, into something personal. To me that is an utter waste of time, a waste of human energy. The energy that is needed for inquiry and understanding, rather than the accusing and rather childish “you’re wrong”, "you did that", "it's your fault".

And if one turns an inquiry into personal accusations, the forum degenerates into a confused mess of conflict – as one can see one most other forums on the internet. I started this particular forum, with moderation, to see if that energy-dissipating conflict could be eliminated.

If i was to use your words, i will say all that you say are conclusions. There were no accusations made towards anyone and one was simply trying to state some general insights without being particular; as evidenced throughout the thread (linguistic markers) except in cases where it was required to meet certain responders...at their own level. You weren't one of them. Maybe a second glance with a clearer head might make it clear.

Clive Elwell wrote:
I have to finish there, no more time.

I agree with you sir....and Thank You.

This post was last updated by Vikram P Tue, 14 Aug 2018.

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Tue, 11 Sep 2018 #32
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

Do not try to protect it, your mirror is that mirror,
Which would be dearer in the Maker's eye if it is broken.

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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 #33
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

"The observer is the observed":

i findeth not me
at which hour i findeth thee

i findeth not thee
at which hour i findeth me

i findeth not myself, at which hour i findeth yourself?

at which hour i findeth myself i loseth myself?
finding and losing?finding... ...not-finding?
what is this bewild'rment?!

The exquisite teen of the th'rn
hast to beest hath felt and und'rstood
bef're the appreciation of the did rise

intelligence cometh to the rescueth and sayeth, eith'r i loseth myself; 'r; madeth to loseth myself,
eith'r i kicketh the bucket 'r madeth to kicketh the bucket

liketh a mirr'r at which hour i cometh clos'r to t,
i seeth mine own reflection and revel in its gl'ry

anon i can breaketh the mirr'r.

th'ref're that gent sayeth, "selleth thy clev'rness and buyeth bewild'rment"!

This post was last updated by Vikram P Sat, 15 Sep 2018.

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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 #34
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

The riv'r of loveth moves in strange ways, goeth upstream. One who is't escapes drowns and one who is't drowns is did save. "

t ent'rs the heart but doesn't ent'r comprehension

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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 #35
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

There is nothing that can be done to reduce the chasam between knowing and un-knowing. There is nothing anywhere; or in anything; that will build a bridge between knowing and un-knowing. Neither knowing nor un-knowing can ever “tap into” the un-knowable. The un-knowable can never be known; much less be used as a means to an end; which is what most are hoping for in their present pursuits.

Death is in facing these facts...one of the fact being the un-knowable.

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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 #36
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

Thee who is't is dying ev'ryday 'f'r' life,
wherefore thee not kicketh the bucket 'in' life?

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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 #37
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4474 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
There is nothing that can be done to reduce the chasam between knowing and un-knowing.

Yes, because any action is action of the psyche, and the psyche is fundamentally the known, isn’t it? And so all its actions – our actions – its attempts at action - must be the continuation of the known.

Vikram P wrote:
There is nothing anywhere; or in anything; that will build a bridge between knowing and un-knowing.

What do you mean by this term “ub-knowing”, Vikram?

Vikram P wrote:
Death is in facing these facts...one of the fact being the un-knowable.

Yes, it is true Vedanta. How strange – I thought that Sanskrit term simply meant the ending or death of knowledge. But on an impulse I just googled the term, and found vast amounts of text about it – ie vast amounts of knowledge.

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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 #38
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

Musing: One wonders why the lack of responses on poetry but not on prose....is it because it is easier to parrot prose while one has to understand symbolic poetry on their own if no explanation is provided? A far cry for most....perhaps. That said:

Clive Elwell wrote:
Yes, because any action is action of the psyche, and the psyche is fundamentally the known, isn’t it? And so all its actions – our actions – its attempts at action - must be the continuation of the known.

That is a start; but there is more to it; as in what is being pointed to.

Clive Elwell wrote:
What do you mean by this term “ub-knowing”, Vikram?

I am not sure what you are asking; I have not used that word “ub-knowing”; is that a typo?

Clive Elwell wrote:
Yes, it is true Vedanta. How strange – I thought that Sanskrit term simply meant the ending or death of knowledge. But on an impulse I just googled the term, and found vast amounts of text about it – ie vast amounts of knowledge.

How strange—your words seem to echo K’s; in his discussion with the Indian Swami. Sounds like you must have heard that dialogue or read it. In any case; it is strange;I am baffled and not sure why you brought up the word “Vedanta”; as it wasn’t used or even referred to in my comment. Perhaps you are under the assumption or making a point that I or my words are influenced by Vedanta (there is nothing wrong in that if that be the case), but that would be incorrect.Any reasonably informed person can deduce that to not be the case if they read my prior comments. That is if they have the capacity and the qualifications. Vedanta doesn’t speak in those terms. On a side note; one wonders about the motive, intent and the need for such an accusatory statement; if the motive is one of accusation that is; and yet miss the beauty in what was being shared.

But since you brought it up and felt compelled to make that comment/conclusion “i.e. vast amounts of knowledge”; presumably without a serious and sincere study of the same/Vedanta, I will respectfully ask you to do so in interest of not looking like someone that is throwing half-baked conclusions or looking foolish. Google is hardly a citation for the intelligent or the informed eh? Certainly not on something that requires specialized expertise. Once one has done their due diligence then they will refrain from jumping into the misinterpreted K’s bandwagon and will then find; that the body of pointers called “Vedanta” ISN”T a body of knowledge and it is a critical error to approach those as such. A similar critical error is to approach K’s pointers as “knowledge”; as it is being done.

However it is highly unlikely that this error can be corrected without a transformation in the fundamentals/defects of the person such as their “eyes” or their “lens” or in their tendency to pigeonhole all ‘information’ as knowledge and to function from that base etc.

One wonders if anyone really understands what is being implied in the word "un-knowable"? Most likely not...

This post was last updated by Vikram P Wed, 19 Sep 2018.

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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 #39
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
It would be useful VP to one day hear yourself as some others hear you. Shocking for all of us I suppose. Face humiliation and see what we 'do' with it. A "jewel" we would soon be rid of, but that is the 'game' here. To not escape, but to stay.

DM, as of the writing of these responses I am not impressed by anything that anyone has to say here or for that matter anywhere else in the world. Why? Rather simple, they are empty words and empty of the potency of translation/conduct. Come back and have a civil discourse with me when you can get over the numerous peculiarities; one being your habit of deleting comments as an “escape” and another being the habit of paraphrasing K's words and trying to pass it as verbatim and without citations.

Now; i can suggest many things that might be "useful" to you and to others but i am not in the habit of giving unsolicited advice. As to the forum and its inhabitants, I see what goes in here and that isn't a surprise either. As to “the game”; I will let you and others play them. These matters are serious business to me and not a form of entertainment, or steps to ward off senility or whiling away time.

So if you folks can turn your attention from me and would like to focus on what’s being discussed then I welcome your contribution. Meet me on a topic and i will show you how quick you will like to escape. I think most of you already know that don't you?

BTW, the voice of truth is always humiliating and if you can stay with it; as you seem to indicate then its good; but not enough.....one has to keep coming back for some more humiliation...until nothing remains of that which keeps getting humiliated....for god's sake say that you get this!

This post was last updated by Vikram P Wed, 19 Sep 2018.

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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 #40
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
You remind me of that Perkins guy who finally got thrown out of here and who btw over the months has sent me (and others, I'm sure) some 40 or so personal messages which are all unread in my trash. Give it up, you're in exactly the same boat as all of us, but you just come on in a relatively more obnoxious way. (nothing personal)

DM, you can take your gossip of other people to others; and i am sure you will find more willing ears; but i am not interested in the least to listen or discuss other people. Have the courtesy not to post if you are going to be petty and small. Not sure what you mean by "give it up"...let me make a disclosure; perhaps that might help clear up some things from that ugly lens.....people's; and that includes your's; either appreciation or criticism have as much value to me as TP!

Furthermore; i accept your opinion of of me as being obnoxious as a compliment. It means that i have done it right. The reactions are indicators that the shoe fits. I expect people like you to get personal; anything different will be surprising. However i will urge you to go back and read this thread and notice how many times i have indicated to you folks to not be fixated on me but rather focus on the topic. Contribute to the topic if you can otherwise be silent, no? But see that's too much to expect from a small person... and there are many.

And yes; i am well aware of the tendency to kill the messenger;not that i am one; and have no wish to be one for these ugly vulgar violent and petty people. Don't know how the beacons of light throughout history have done it; and i am convinced that its a herculean effort to be able to do that in-spite of the stench of humanity.....but as i was saying; i am well aware of that syndrome of killing the messenger and it usually starts off with "you're in exactly the same boat as all of us" and then they add in different terminology "how dare you disturb our sleep".

This post was last updated by Vikram P Wed, 19 Sep 2018.

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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 #41
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

I readeth in the waue's fickle delicate f'rm
the preface of the sea, the windeth's footprint

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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 #42
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4474 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
I am not sure what you are asking; I have not used that word “ub-knowing”; is that a typo?

yes, a typo on my part, sorry, I was referring of course to your phrase "un-knowing". Do you mean by the term the process of seeing the limitations of knowledge, and ending it (which is the ending of the self, since the self IS knowledge)?

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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 #43
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4474 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
How strange—your words seem to echo K’s; in his discussion with the Indian Swami. Sounds like you must have heard that dialogue or read it.

I am not sure which Swami you mean. But I do not find it strange that my words echo K's, considering how much I have listened to him, read him. This is conditioning, just as watching a movie will leave certain imprints in the brain; create certain patterns.

Whether exposure to K's words brings understanding or not (understanding being something other than conditioning) is another question.

Vikram P wrote:
. Perhaps you are under the assumption or making a point that I or my words are influenced by Vedanta

No, not at all, that did not occur to me, and there was no accusation in my mail whatsoever.

All I know about Vedanta is the meaning of the word, nothing more, which is, as I have heard and as I checked on the internet, "the ending of knowledge". It struck me as ironic that so much has been written - so much knowledge - on such an action - profound as it is. K himself has used the phrase "freedom from the known", and "dying to the known", which is implied in the subject of this thread.

Vikram P wrote:
However it is highly unlikely that this error can be corrected without a transformation in the fundamentals/defects of the person such as their “eyes” or their “lens” or in their tendency to pigeonhole all ‘information’ as knowledge and to function from that base etc.

This seems right. Knowledge is always limited, and as such always seems to give rise to conflict - "My knowledge" and "your knowledge". The essential issue is one of seeing, of looking directly without the interpretation/recognition of the past. That challenge is always there.

Perhaps,Vikram, you and I are using the word "knowledge" somewhat differently, and we could explore that?

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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 #44
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
yes, a typo on my part, sorry, I was referring of course to your phrase "un-knowing". Do you mean by the term the process of seeing the limitations of knowledge, and ending it (which is the ending of the self, since the self IS knowledge)?

Clive,
I have used 3 phrases in that post that form a weave; viz “knowing”; “un-knowing”; and “un-knowable”, but since you are asking only about “un-knowing”…. I am going to start by saying that “un-knowing” is that chasm that begins or starts after the “known/knowing” ends. If I was to use an example and use K’s words “the word is not the thing”; in that phrase K is highlighting a certain chasm between the word and the thing. Similarly using another example; the chasm between the word “choice-less awareness” and the actual thing of choice-less awareness is obvious, obviously.

Putting it differently; we hear or learn a word; and subsequently hear or learn the meaning and associations of that word; and then further down the line learn to use it in various contexts; to give it various meanings….all that is within the field of knowing/the known but as K (and many others) have pointed out that the word is not the thing in actuality; so now we have a problem. The problem is that we know the word; its meaning; its associations, its use but we don’t know or have not perceived “the thing”. This gap or chasm is being referred to as the “un-knowing”. Not knowing 'the thing' is being refereed to as un-knowing.

This un-knowing is the root cause for the discrepancies between philosophy and character such as simply parroting and not walking the walk. One cannot walk the walk because one doesn’t “know” “the thing” per se; other than an intellectual appreciation at best. So wisdom/philosophy doesn’t translate into daily living because of this un-knowing. There is no translation and acquired words forever remain unconnected to the reality of the person.

Having defined “unknowing” as thus; I have said: “There is nothing that can be done to reduce the chasm between knowing and un-knowing. There is nothing anywhere; or in anything; that will build a bridge between knowing and un-knowing. Neither knowing nor un-knowing can ever “tap into” the un-knowable. The un-knowable can never be known; much less be used as a means to an end; which is what most are hoping for in their present pursuits.”

Clive Elwell wrote:
Perhaps,Vikram, you and I are using the word "knowledge" somewhat differently, and we could explore that?

Yes we can explore "knowledge" but perhaps a dedicated blog might be better?

This post was last updated by Vikram P Thu, 20 Sep 2018.

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Thu, 20 Sep 2018 #45
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 42 posts in this forum Offline

The moon stays bright at which hour t
doesn't avoideth the night

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