Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Self and environment


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Sun, 29 Jul 2018 #31
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Perhaps it does have a "cleansing effect", but it's not clear to me. For example, if hate and love interact, is hate cleansed by love? There is still a responsibility or questioning, some action that must come from hate, isn't there? The only thing that seems clear to me in this respect is that love or negative action does not contribute to the toxicity of relationship.

If in ourselves we end hatred, then we have reduced the amount of hate in the Stream, have we not? There is less hatred in the world.

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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 #32
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2335 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Or is there a more direct way, that affects the Stream directly? After all we are in that stream, we are part of that stream (I think K once objected to that phrase "part of the stream"). So every thought we have MUST be/become/affect the stream.

Are you saying that someone like K who was out of the stream (if we take his word for it) affects the stream even without acting/speaking? That just by the fact of being K, that K had an affect on the stream? Yet, someone like Trump still arises in the stream? Yet, Hitler arose in the stream? Are you maintaining that K's conscious itself changed the stream? It would't seem to be the case, since the world/society doesn't seem to have been changed one iota during the time K was living. My suffering as a child, and the suicidal depression of a loved one wasn't lessened by the fact that K was alive. He couldn't even change those close to him if you believe what he said at the end of his life that 'no one got it' or something like that. This seems pure fantasy, if I may say so.

Let it Be

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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 #33
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 760 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
He couldn't even change those close to him if you believe what he said at the end of his life that 'no one got it' or something like that. This seems pure fantasy, if I may say so.

Hi Tom,

Could 'HE' even have changed someone at all and the term 'no one got It' as if someone can hold on it, are we really understand it ?

Are not a range of people inspired by his sayings looking into themselves acting differently ?
We can't prove or disprove truth but this seems to me a huge difference, although not through cause and effect.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2335 posts in this forum Offline

Wim: Are not a range of people inspired by his sayings looking into themselves acting differently ?

Tom: I’m not questioning that Wim. I thought Clive was implying something different above. That even without speaking or acting, but simply because K was functioning from outside of the stream, that his consciousness would have an affect on the stream. Maybe I misunderstood.

Let it Be

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #35
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are you saying that someone like K who was out of the stream (if we take his word for it) affects the stream even without acting/speaking?

Clive: There is some evidence of this in K’s own words. I know it is in “The Ending of Time”, but cannot give the exact quote or location at the moment. If you want, if you ask me, I will try to find it. Basically K reveals – if one accepts his words – that he was acting as a “conduit” between The Ground and the consciousness of human kind. It was just his existence, his presence that was doing that, nothing to do with the talks, the dialogues, the books, which he described, as I remember, as a very small affair.

I know this brings up several questions, which I am not in a position to answer at all.

Yet, someone like Trump still arises in the stream? Yet, Hitler arose in the stream? Are you maintaining that K's conscious itself changed the stream?

C: I am not “maintaining” anything, Tom, I am enquiring.

It wouldn't seem to be the case, since the world/society doesn't seem to have been changed one iota during the time K was living.

C: No, it doesn’t appear so. Or since, except perhaps to deteriorate further. But who knows, maybe the world would have been destroyed by nuclear war by now WITHOUT K performing this function!

My suffering as a child, and the suicidal depression of a loved one wasn't lessened by the fact that K was alive.

C: K always insisted that he was not here to give comfort, to help anyone, did he not? He has never advocated the alleviation of suffering, rather to be aware completely of suffering. Has he not always maintained that only we ourselves can resolve our problems, transform ourselves?

He couldn't even change those close to him if you believe what he said at the end of his life that 'no one got it' or something like that. This seems pure fantasy, if I may say so.

C: There is another point that comes to me. I don’t know if you accept the notion of the Stream, The Common Human Consciousness? To me it seems a lot more reasonable, a more accurate description than the idea of separate consciousnesses. To me it feels right, and is supported by observation (I am still being tentative about it, however).

Now, if we are part of that stream, in that stream, then obviously everything we do, think, feel, act, must affect the stream. It MUST be so, no, if we are part of that stream? Everyone of us, you, me, Trump, Hitler ….. It would be impossible to be otherwise.

One needs to examine what "affect" means above.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #36
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2335 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
My suffering as a child, and the suicidal depression of a loved one wasn't lessened by the fact that K was alive.

C: K always insisted that he was not here to give comfort, to help anyone, did he not? He has never advocated the alleviation of suffering, rather to be aware completely of suffering.

But did his presence help any of us to be completely aware? His presence alone...not referring to the talks. I'm thinking of the examples above and many more. I was totally unaware of the reasons for my intense suffering when young. It was only when I came across the teaching....the 'words' of K....that I began to become aware. His presence had no effect on my consciousness, I'm quite certain. Many of my family members never questioned deeply nor were they aware of their conditioning. Obviously we can say the same for most of mankind. so what was the effect of K's presence? His presence did nothing to make mankind more aware. Obviously a Hitler could't take hold in an aware society....nor Trump.

Let it Be

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #37
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 760 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
That even without speaking or acting, but simply because K was functioning from outside of the stream, that his consciousness would have an affect on the stream.

I've taken the trouble to search for it in 'the ending of time' and found this:

Krishnamurti ......So there is only one thing, and that is to discover that all that I have done is useless – ashes! You see that doesn’t depress one. That is the beauty of it. I think it is like the Phoenix.

Bohm: Rising from the ashes.

Krishnamurti: Born of ashes.

Bohm: In a way it is freedom, to be free of all that.

Krishnamurti: Something totally new is born.

Bohm: Now what you said before is that the mind is the ground, it is the unknown.

Krishnamurti: The mind? Yes. But not this mind.

Bohm: In that case it is not the same mind.

Krishnamurti: If I have been through all that, and come to a point when I have to end all that, it is a new mind.

Bohm: That’s clear, the mind is its content, and the content is knowledge, and without that knowledge it is a new mind.

12th April 1980, Ojai, California

As far as I can see it, this means that 'Truth' can only acting trough a new mind and as such influence the whole, and yes as you said maybe I misunderstood.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 31 Jul 2018.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #38
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But did his presence help any of us to be completely aware?

Well, it is clear that K, in whatever he did or didn't, did not bring about a complete transformation of the world. With his words, what more could he say than things like "you area completely responsible for the world", "the world cannot change if you do not change" (my paraphrase). I think it is just a simple fact the no-one can bring about change in myself, only myself.

Here is an interesting quote, I don't think it is quite going off on a tangent:

"The greatness of man is that no one can help him or save him but man himself"

from Krishnamurti’s The Art of Listening #10: Talk in The Colosseum. Oslo, Norway; 10th September, 1933

He has even used the word "glory":

"I say there is no permanent source that can give one understanding. You know, to me the glory of man is that no one can save him except himself."

from Krishnamurti’s The Art of Listening#6: Talk in University Hall. Oslo, Norway; 5th September, 1933

Impressive words, I find. But if this is the case, one might well ask what is the meaning of “being a conduit between The Ground of Being and the consciousness of mankind”. I have to say I don’t know. But we cannot dismiss the possibility that there might have been SOME change effected.

I will look for the citation in “The Ending of Time”

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #39
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
I've taken the trouble to search for it in 'the ending of time' and found this:

Thanks for posting this, Wim. It has always impressed me. It is true that discovering the truth about oneself, no matter how apparently "negative" in conventional terms, cannot depress one.

However, it was not the quote I had in mind, and I will definitely have a search for that, as I said to Tom.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #40
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4651 posts in this forum Offline

I have found the extract I was thinking of. As this seems a definite tangent to the topic "Self and Environment" I have opened a new thread, entitled "Krishnamurti's influence in human conscousness"

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