Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Hypocrisy, a place to start


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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

I see that the Hungarian government announces it is going to promote Christian values (their words) by making it a crime to help refugees, punishable by up to a year in jail.

How is such double talk possible? How is it possible to be so hypercritical? Although I am not a Christian, I am familiar with what Jesus said about loving one's neighbour, compassion, etc. And he explained who is one’s neighbour in the parable of the good Samaritan. And how is it possible for enough people to accept such contradiction to elect a government which says such things?

It is beyond belief. But it is hardly a new thing. When people accost me in the streets, proselytising, and  say they are Christians, I sometimes ask, "So, you follow Jesus's words do you?". "Oh yes", they say. "So you have sold all you have and given it to the poor?", I ask. I am met either with silence, or "Ah, he didn't mean it like that".

I read there are people walking the corridors of government in the US – war mongers all - always carrying bibles openly. In that bible one of the principle commandments from God is "Thou shalt not kill". Not "thou shalt not kill except, unless ......", just "Thou shalt not kill". In fact it does not only  say that shalt not kill one's fellow man. Would that includes animals?

What is this human mind that is capable of such infinite deception? And is this reason mankind does not change, as K has asked so often? This is related to what I posted recently about my refusing to accept the evidence of my senses about damage to the hedge.

Sometimes K used to ask “Where do we start?”. Or in dialogue people would ask him that question. It seems to me that this is one place when we CAN start. This is one thing we can do. Not be a hypocrite, not be dishonest with ourselves? We can face ourselves as we are, in the sense if we tell a lie, we can admit that we have told a lie. If we are in contradiction, we can SEE that we are in contradiction, and not pretend otherwise. We can be honest about ourselves; we can recognise what the real motives behind our actions are, and not pretend.

There is no predicting where such honesty might take us.

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 737 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
If we are in contradiction, we can SEE that we are in contradiction, and not pretend otherwise. We can be honest about ourselves; we can recognise what the real motives behind our actions are, and not pretend.

Hi Clive,

Yes That's a possibility we can, but we don't, why ?

I call it 'saying the one and doing the other'.
And if we recognize inmidiatly we condemn or expel, Isn't that also the current energy in the USA, going for ones own benefit.

accepting dictators, popes or whatever to behave what is called civilisation which it is not at all.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #3
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 605 posts in this forum Offline

Clive and Dan,

The world crisis is in consciousness and consciousness is contained in, manifested through, the self. It is not immutable but, as things are presently, there is no other human consciousness than the consciousness of “me”.

If I in my daily life think/act out of fear, anger, hate, conceit, belief, conclusion, that is the consciousness of over 5000 years manifesting itself as “me”. Therein lies the crisis, in that ages old consciousness. Where that fragmented consciousness is the basis for action, then “I” am just as responsible for the crisis as those who have power, politically, financially, socially, religiously. Consciousness is either part of the problem or part of the solution. Hitler, Stalin, Caesar, could not have put their “vision” into action without the support of the masses - out of fear, out of worship or reverence, out of hate and inner violence, out of pleasure, and so on. It is up to the masses - i.e. "me" - not to be indoctrinated and misled.

Personal consciousness or thinking is shaped by the stream we are born into - the stream of time, greed, fear, selfishness, violence, desire, ambition, conformity, pleasure-seeking, security-seeking, and so on. When the old consciousness dies, it stands to reason that the human being does not become a zombie, without any sort of consciousness at all. Where there is a living human being, there must be consciousness of one sort or another, whatever the new consciousness might be, however it might manifest itself and act,

So it so or not so? Is self an illusion or is there an actual self who can fix the crisis if it is smart enough? Is the stream of consciousness the determining factor for our actions or are “we” autonomous, independent actors who can act intelligently, freely, uninfluenced by the force of time, by the movement of the stream?

So is self an illusion or not? If I end up pointing at "others", blaming them for the crisis - whether the “others” are the powerful few or the masses - my blaming them is fully the action of thought. Whover I blame - the Bible thumpers promoting fear and violence, or the Bible thumpers promoting their greed and demanding $54 million jets from their followers, or the shadowy powerful figures who plot against the masses in order to enrich and secure themselves - “I” am acting under the divisive influence of the stream. This is not to say that there are not such Bible thumpers or that there are not such shadowy powerful people. But, as I see it, it is in any case NOT thought which can remedy this crisis. Blaming them in no way resolves anything. It perpetuates the old divisive way of acting.

Is it so or not so? If I carry on with the old ways of thinking and acting, the old ways based on the illusion of a separate independent self, then obviously, for me, it is NOT so.

The crisis is not in economics, political, religious, but the crisis is in our consciousness - why we are what we are after thousands and thousands of years - that's where the crisis is. And merely to solve the economic crisis or the political crisis or the brutality of ideologies and wars, it's not only there but it's much deeper. So we are going to enquire first, because they're all related, all problems are related to each other, they are not separate. If one can solve one problem completely, then you have solved all other problems because there is no separate problem, whether it be sexual, whether it be the desire to fulfil, and so on. So in the resolution of one is solved the whole thing, if you know how to do it.

May 12, 1985, Second Public Talk in Ojai


This mind is in constant operation; it is always judging, weighing, observing, interpreting; and I feel the crisis is there. If, being aware of this crisis, the mind puts its question within the field of the known, it will have an answer according to its own knowledge; therefore, the problem continues. Whereas, can one confront the problem without a motive? Can one see for oneself – actually, not merely verbally – that the crisis is there, without knowing how to answer it? Do you understand? Because you really don't know how to answer it, do you? You have been through this or that religion, you have tried yoga or some other system of meditation, you have read the usual books, attended this talk, that talk, and have done all the things that every human being does in search of the answer – and you have not found it. Perhaps the problem itself has not been clear to you because you have never felt the totality of consciousness; you have only known certain parts of it. But this evening you may have been able to feel the totality of this enormous thing. You know, when you suddenly see something extraordinarily beautiful – a mountain, a stream in the shade of a tree, or the face of a child – your whole being becomes quiet, does it not? You don't say, “Why is it so beautiful?” Your mind, your whole being is, for a moment at least, completely still because there is no answer. But that is merely an imposition. The beauty of something has momentarily knocked out your mind. It is like depending on a drug to make you quiet, taking LSD so that you will have marvelous visions.

What we are talking about has no answer, so we have only the crisis without the answer. But you have never faced the crisis in those terms. You have never lived in that crisis without seeking an answer – because there is no answer. The fields of the known may be traversed in one swift perception, or it may take many years to cross the fields of the known. But when you have come to that point where you are really faced with the crisis which has no answer, and the mind is silent with a silence that is not imposed, then you will see, if you have the patience, that there is a revolution – a tremendous revolution in which the mind is made innocent through death of the known; and only such a mind can discover that which is everlasting.

Third Public Talk in the Oak Grove, May 28, 1960

This post was last updated by Huguette . Fri, 08 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: We can face ourselves as we are, in the sense if we tell a lie, we can admit that we have told a lie. If we are in contradiction, we can SEE that we are in contradiction, and not pretend otherwise. We can be honest about ourselves; we can recognise what the real motives behind our actions are, and not pretend.

T: Easier said then done! But the cause of our dishonesty is in the very movement of the self. In every movement of the self. Thought itself is inherently dishonest (psychologically). The ‘me’ is inherently divided and isolated and dishonest. I’m angry but I pretend or prefer to be calm. I’m violent but I pretend to want peace. I’m intolerant but I try...make an effort... to be tolerant. Any movement in the psychological realm of consciousness is inherently dishonest. Whatever I try to do psychologically is dishonest....any effort in that realm. It’s me trying to be something or someone I’m not. It’s me divided from you and me divided from what is. My wife may be talking but I divide from her by not truly listening because she’s saying something that’s unpleasant or disturbing ...or something that interferes in my desire for pleasure or my ambition to succeed or to gain or acquire. I am greedy and selfish....yet I pretend that I love her.

I just read today’s QOTD. It may be of some help here on the topic of being honest with ourselves. From 1938 1st public talk at Omman camp:

” You can know yourself only when you are unaware, when you are not calculating, not protecting, not constantly watching to guide, to transform, to subdue, to control; when you see yourself unexpectedly, that is, when the mind has no preconceptions with regard to itself, when the mind is open, unprepared to meet the unknown.
If your mind is prepared, surely you cannot know the unknown, for you are the unknown. If you say to yourself, "I am God", or "I am nothing but a mass of social influences or a bundle of qualities" - if you have any preconception of yourself, you cannot comprehend the unknown, that which is spontaneous.”

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 08 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #5
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 605 posts in this forum Offline

Tom,

You say that, for example, “the cause of our dishonesty is in the very movement of the self”, that “Whatever I try to do psychologically is dishonest”, and that “I am greedy and selfish....yet I pretend that I love her”.

Doesn’t making these statements indicate that you DO SEE the cause of our dishonesty, the process which puts self together? If you didn’t see it, you couldn’t make such statements, obviously. No?

If you/I see it, then the very seeing acts on relationship, doesn’t it? Before seeing it, I thought I still somehow loved my wife even though I belittled her, deceived her, and so on. Now I see that belittling, being inattentive, is not the action of love. Seeing that, I don’t pretend to love her. I don’t pretend to myself. So there is inwardly no division between us. Isn’t that love? It’s just not love according to the image of love that I had before self-understanding. It’s not love as I imagined it. I am in unknown “territory” and I don’t know what will come of it.

Am I imagining things now? Maybe.

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette: If you/I see it, then the very seeing acts on relationship, doesn’t it?

Yes, of course. It’s not thinking, but seeing that acts. The rest of your post deserves more attention, Huguette, but the darn quoting function is refusing to work again with the Apple iOS. I can’t even select text and copy at the moment. Will try to get back to this later. You seem to be saying that if I don’t pretend to love her(my wife for example), that there is no longer division between us. If that’s what you’re saying, I don’t see it. Got to run....dishes to wash, etc. before we head out.

Let it Be

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #7
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 605 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
how would one have a clue about oneself when the outer is not even understood ...

Daniel,

Are you saying that one must understand “the outer” first? Through what means is this done? Does this not result in the multitude of opinions and divisions that exist presently? And is "the one" who analyzes and understands the outer not itself the result of the outer, made of the same factors or elements as the outer - greed, fear, deceit, desire, and so on?

Daniel Paul. wrote:
all our other capacities are gone, or dormant!
accumulative knowledge and personal desires are all what is left for us, it has invaded the brain and of course the planet. It is preventing our other capacities to turn themselves on , this should be a teaching for quite young people..when fear which in fact is a movement of escaping , a running away and suffering start to be there in a child 's life , it is time to go "within" all that with the help of ..well of who ??

in my case just counted on "myself" ..

What capacities do you mean? What lies within? What does it mean to you to “go within”? Who is the "myself" that I can “count on”, what is its nature?

Daniel Paul. wrote:
I do not know what consciousnesses is nor the self..this makes a dialogue difficult...
for me those terms were never helpful, it is not tangible as a define meaning so it can fluctuate as one wishes, not easy when trying to talk ..

You talk about suffering. Who suffers if not the self? Can I understand suffering if I don’t understand the nature of the self - “me” - who suffers? Can I “help myself” as you say if I don’t understand myself and my own mind or consciousness?

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #8
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 737 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
we can SEE that we are in contradiction

for to see contradiction is that not one thought opposite another thought ??

Is the fact not already being bussy and by not condemming it or justigy it, is not something different take place ??
this different action can be anything because it has no goal or source !!

Huguette . wrote:
Isn’t that love?
It’s just not love according to the image of love that I had before self-understanding.
It’s not love as I imagined it.
I am in unknown “territory” and I don’t know what will come of it.

It seems we are talking about the same phenomene !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 08 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #9
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 124 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Are you saying that one must understand “the outer” first? Through what means is this done? Does this not result in the multitude of opinions and divisions that exist presently?

Hello..must is not the word I would use, I would prefer to say: one may consider at first but not only to see the outer as it is, which needs time and energy to do so properly ...for me battles of opinions lead only to more opinions and more battles, no one should tell another one the means to see the outer, we all have the tools for that so all this has to be found by oneself out of deep interest so passion for that...nothing extra ordinary in doing so.

Huguette . wrote:
What capacities do you mean? What lies within? What does it mean to you to “go within”? Who is the "myself" that I can “count on”, what is its nature?

do you expect me to answer all those questions ? I won't...I privilege talking about one's direct experiences which sometimes may cross those questions ..which i did a lot on kinfonet, less now, nothing personnel with you actually , not at all..I read you from time to time

I use " go within" is by opposition to "go outer" , the criticism of the outer is then turned into oneself, starting with my own misery as if there were not misery there would be no question asked ..without living suffering properly for me all this goes nowhere .says my so repeated again and again experiences...same with some people I closely know..same with Mr Siddhartha and k if one read all of it...we must be careful with the reading as some books are verbatim...not from recorded talks, thanks to ken for that vital information ..

Huguette . wrote:
You talk about suffering. Who suffers if not the self? Can I understand suffering if I don’t understand the nature of the self - “me” - who suffers? Can I “help myself” as you say if I don’t understand myself and my own mind or consciousness?

As long as thought leads the human game nothing else but the same old suffering and so misery will take place, it just will change its appearances , there is nothing to be understood with suffering by thought it must be lived then one sees what takes place or not..

it is very very simple indeed..

Lately the program, some of it , of thought was shown to me out of the blue...over 3 weeks..that is one other capacity at work , and one side effects of properly living suffering effects..and yes it is personally helpful somehow...yet globally useless because it accentuates the incomprehension with people, unless one says nothing..the fact seems that such non analytical knowledge is there for all potentially so must be seen by one to make sense..otherwise it is catch by thought which of course is going to make a mess of it..in my experiences so far , what is shown from beyond thought cannot be sought for, thought does not give order in such fields, it must shut up and yet it has to work in its fields of competencies only, which happens if the right conditions are there...this is not something define and cannot be used as a method..

cheerio. ;-)

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 09 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 08 Jun 2018 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

we can SEE that we are in contradiction

Wim: for to see contradiction is that not one thought opposite another thought ??

T: Yes. That’s our normal manner of functioning....trying to be someone/something we’re not. Psychologically it seems there’s always contradiction and conflict, though we’re usually unaware of it, since it’s our daily life as we live it and know it....it’s the norm.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 09 Jun 2018.

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Sat, 09 Jun 2018 #11
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Yes That's a possibility we can, but we don't, why ?

I could give a simple answer, fear. But perhaps the learning lies in going into this question - why we don't, if we don't - each time anew. By "going into" I include just a passive awareness of the process.

But we don't like to feel uncomfortable, do it. And it can be uncomfortable, disturbing, to see ourselves just as we are (this is related to the recently resurected thread “The brain only wants to feel better, and so deludes itself”, isn’t it?). We prefer the comfort and security of self-created images.

Wim Opdam wrote:
Isn't that also the current energy in the USA, going for ones own benefit.

Not just the USA! But it does seem at times to be the extreme example. Interesting, isn't it, that putting oneself first, or putting one's country first (America first!) can and is presented as extremely moral

Wim Opdam wrote:
accepting dictators, popes or whatever to behave what is called civilisation which it is not at all.

There has to be a certain amount of conformity to "the rules" when the rules are sensible, and when they are truly for the good of ALL. In fact when this is seen I would not call it conformity.

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Sat, 09 Jun 2018 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 737 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
We prefer the comfort and security of self-created images.

But where is the border between physical and psychological.

K. answered once on a question if everyone had to go to the process!
"COLUMBUS had to go to much trouble to discover America, now you step on a plane" (from memory so not the exact words)!

Clive Elwell wrote:
Not just the USA! But it does seem at times to be the extreme example. Interesting, isn't it, that putting oneself first, or putting one's country first (America first!) can and is presented as extremely moral

Yes, It's all over the world with this energy of populism, blaming others for your discomfort. More money is spent on weapons than on development aid. It appears that more money can be earned with the development of new weapons and therefore the old ones must be used to make space.
Is this not look alike the same argument we use psychological ?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 09 Jun 2018 #13
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 124 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
without living suffering properly for me all this goes nowhere .says my so repeated again and again experiences...same with some people I closely know..same with Mr Siddhartha and k if one read all of it

Then as often the quote of the day is here to help as well

what does say this quote from the quote of the day :

Now is not liberation from the cause of conflict and sorrow the primary issue? If we do not lay emphasis upon this how will the solution of the secondary problems stop war? If we do not root out the causes of war in ourselves, of what value is it to tinker with the outward results of our inner state? We must, each one, dig deeply and clear away lust, ill will and ignorance; we must utterly abandon nationalism, racialism and those causes that breed enmity. We must concern ourselves wholly with that which is of primary importance and not be confused with secondary issues.

Is not k clearly stating what the primary issue is :

liberation from the cause of conflict and sorrow

so of suffering....then all will follow...

Dan ...........

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Sat, 09 Jun 2018 #14
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 737 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Is not k clearly stating what the primary issue is :

liberation from the cause of conflict and sorrow

so of suffering....then all will follow...

Dan,

please read this last sentence of the QOTD again:

"We must, each one, dig deeply and clear away lust, ill will and ignorance;
we must utterly abandon nationalism, racialism and those causes that breed enmity.
We must concern ourselves wholly with that which is of primary importance
and not be confused with secondary issues.

are not this activities leading to suffering, so the cause is not suffering but suffering is the result of our activities.

We don't create space and silence in our minds, it is already there when we have it in order !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 09 Jun 2018 #15
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 124 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Wim,

sort of agreed globally yes..

for me any thought activity if thought is our only capacity at work will lead to one form or another of some sort of suffering and it is not at all incidental , it must happen, it will happen, that is the way it is...I know it, no proof...in what I see and lived or lives, you name it it will produce suffering...

it is meant to be, thought must fail...as a first step ...any hope, intention, desire etc etc of escaping that vital moment where thought fails , is defeated , will prevent this radical right turn to take place in one's life..

this is where we are since millennium ..catch 22 it is ..like a goldfish in his fishbowl..

now or we try to explain, understand, etc using thought , which is one of the form of escape from it , yet there is no escape at all, only a vague illusion of it a sort of game, or we do not do that..

if there is no escape of any kind , what happens? try it :::: !!!!

the entire unconscious part of the brain will be included when one does this, it is already another capacity at work , then here is where the unexpected will take place as it wishes, if it wishes . This is experiment not intellectual stuff , yet of course the intellect is used to convey ..

it is the main but not only "thing" I have to say in fact here and anywhere else ..why ?

it works in an entirely unexpected and unpredictable way but it works !!!!!

mind you if there is any expectation, conscious or not, it does not work, nothing new takes place , ever , why? because thought has no part in it yet it is the one which must act on the first vital step about suffering which is thought itself yet of course thought does not know that.

it must live what it really is ( what is versus what should be) instead of trying to run away from itself so from suffering because it cannot do that..

there is one single "object" where thought sees two objects....it sees me on one hand and suffering on the other hand so it sees two separates entities , this is logical as it works that way , the observer is the observed.., but reality is that there is only suffering which is the state of thought ..

it is really quite simple as such , but we are intellectual mainly-only so analytical no worries as it is meant to take place that way but we must move from that situation by doing something very special , no proof again apart from personal moments so for myself, but I know it that way as a practice, therefore a formidable energy must be used to by pass thought without willing to do it so because if so then it is still thought at work and it will lead to more problems..our world is on this exact path , this energy is hidden behind suffering ....suffering not really a best seller ..

we as thought must fail and then do the right action from there..surrounded by the right person this should take place in childhood when fear and suffering start to become serious...

....it seems that Siddhartha just pinpoint it rightly , but he wrote nothing..so..
k , globally, said the same stuff about suffering in my view , I read and reread all the books since 1970 and have an excellent memory , but it is all over the place a bit here more there and some over there etc

well anyway I never learnt anything by reading K, and in spite of that he is now the almost only writer I can read..yet I see that all is there in his books and videos , but I do not like reading nor writing yet I have to do that of course from time to time,in spite of all that as I said K it is one of the very few I could and can still read with passion and interest...as a sort of friendly deep dialogue even if he passed out a while ago...

that is all for now folks and will be that way for some time..

too busy from now one..summertime means lots of vegy garden work to do..

cheerio , all the best to you ..;-)

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 09 Jun 2018.

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Sat, 09 Jun 2018 #16
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Before seeing it, I thought I still somehow loved my wife even though I belittled her, deceived her, and so on. Now I see that belittling, being inattentive, is not the action of love. Seeing that, I don’t pretend to love her. I don’t pretend to myself. So there is inwardly no division between us. Isn’t that love?

I wanted to come back to this, Huguette, since it’s not clear what you’re saying. If I “no longer pretend to love her”, why does that equate to love? I may hate her. I may be full of ambition and desire. Can I love her if my ambitions come first in my life? If I am self-centered! Am I the only one who is not seeing Huguette’s point?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 09 Jun 2018.

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Sat, 09 Jun 2018 #17
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote #4:
T: Easier said then done! But the cause of our dishonesty is in the very movement of the self. In every movement of the self. Thought itself is inherently dishonest (psychologically). The ‘me’ is inherently divided and isolated and dishonest. I’m angry but I pretend or prefer to be calm. I’m violent but I pretend to want peace. I’m intolerant but I try...make an effort... to be tolerant. Any movement in the psychological realm of consciousness is inherently dishonest. Whatever I try to do psychologically is dishonest....any effort in that realm. It’s me trying to be something or someone I’m not.

Very interesting, Tom. Yes, I see what you mean, I think. Thought as the me is alway a reaction. A reaction to thought, or a feeling, or a perception. And a reaction is a sort of denial, a denial of what was, and this denial is dishonest in that what was really was what was.

Tom Paine wrote:
If your mind is prepared, surely you cannot know the unknown, for you are the unknown.

And an interesting quote you have found. "If your mind is prepared you cannot know the unknown" - yes, I see that. But I am still pondering the "you are the unknown". If it is so, it is so covered up by layer upon layer of the known.

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Sat, 09 Jun 2018 #18
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Am I the only one who is not seeing Huguette’s point?

Huguette . wrote:
Seeing that, I don’t pretend to love her. I don’t pretend to myself. So there is inwardly no division between us. Isn’t that love? It’s just not love according to the image of love that I had before self-understanding. It’s not love as I imagined it. I am in unknown “territory” and I don’t know what will come of it.

By "so there is inwardly no division between us", I was going to ask Huguette if she meant the following:

"So I have removed a cause of division between us"

But I don't want to put words upon her. And clear that love cannot be "love as I imagined it".

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Sun, 10 Jun 2018 #19
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
By "so there is inwardly no division between us", I was going to ask Huguette if she meant the following:

"So I have removed a cause of division between us"

Did she mean that division is gone because I don’t pretend anything in my relationship with my wife? Which would mean that there’s no image at all to come between us? This not pretending about anything may be the crucial point, which goes to the topic of the thread.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 10 Jun 2018.

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Sun, 10 Jun 2018 #20
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
without living suffering properly for me all this goes nowhere .says my so repeated again and again experiences...

Hi Dan

So what does it mean to you, this "living suffering properly"?

Daniel Paul. wrote:
we must be careful with the reading as some books are verbatim...not from recorded talks, thanks to ken for that vital information ..

I presume this is from another forum? Can you copy and past it here?

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Sun, 10 Jun 2018 #21
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
But where is the border between physical and psychological.

It is a very blurred border indeed, as the psyche is concerned with the well being and security of the body (although not to the extent of behaving intelligently about it!). But I think there is a clear border, if one examines things.

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Sun, 10 Jun 2018 #22
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
for me any thought activity if thought is our only capacity at work will lead to one form or another of some sort of suffering and it is not at all incidental , it must happen, it will happen, that is the way it is...I know it, no proof...in what I see and lived or lives, you name it it will produce suffering...

it is meant to be, thought must fail...as a first step ...any hope, intention, desire etc etc of escaping that vital moment where thought fails , is defeated , will prevent this radical right turn to take place in one's life..

Yes, it certainly seems that any effort of thought to solve a problem only makes things worse, or creates new problems. This is observable. Like you, I cannot "prove it", but it certainly seems to be so. Which is rather disastrous, since we are educated and raised on the assumption that properly applied, thought will solve ALL problems.

I should mention the exception is that thought has an amazing technical capacity (look what is happening on Mars!). but even there, we know that technical action will eventually create human problems, since it is still limited.

I was going to ask WHY thought creates endless problems, but have I not just stated why - that it is limited? That thought is intrinsically fragmented, and the action of a fragment always brings more disorder?

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Sun, 10 Jun 2018 #23
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 737 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
It is a very blurred border indeed, as the psyche is concerned with the well being and security of the body (although not to the extent of behaving intelligently about it!). But I think there is a clear border,
if one examines things.

Clive,

Indeed it can be clear after examination, but then it is already passed and the deed is done or history, so it seems that in the process of being one have to be aware of what's going on and then can act intelligently.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sun, 10 Jun 2018.

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Sun, 10 Jun 2018 #24
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 124 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So what does it mean to you, this "living suffering properly"?

Hello, this is the most simple thing in the world...it means not using thought, thought can create illusion about anything, it cannot do that with suffering, it does not work..this is one of the reasons why there is suffering , says my lifetime experiment with it, plus many "visions" , again no proof, there will never be any, unless one lives it, you mention that too. My experiment with others, close relatives ,children, wife etc says that one need to be surrounded by suffering to do that...as long as I am even so so...forget about that..

this was vital in Buddhism in regard to what we have left of it, because Buddha did not write, and amazingly k too apart from the notebook and a few poems , this means something...written words yet useful are not the best mean to convey about those "points" , something is missing in them..no proof again ..

Clive Elwell wrote:
presume this is from another forum? Can you copy and past it here?

Ken , the guy from usa with little animated cartoons and drawings brought that here and on another website...for me he is reliable, what he mentioned was..that would explain many contradictions..but I won't search for that now..but I guess you may contact him.

Clive Elwell wrote:
I should mention the exception is that thought has an amazing technical capacity (look what is happening on Mars!).

well Clive since these moments my brain mind was touched, connected with this weird energy and more, some other capacities were turned on by themselves ..well since I do not find human technical capacity amazing nor the opposite, especially if it is about Mars, just another escape and as I have no trust at all in all these sort of news, well...you understand what I try to say.

amazingly I am interested in very simple techniques which do not need to blow many parts and people of the planet..like the no digging vegy garden that works well for less work, no need for tractors , but the need for all of us to be concerned with producing our own organic food etc permaculture, building one's own shelter with simple and lasting ways for example and so on ..all this needs real cooperation and sharing..a deadly sin for what we have become...apart from exceptions etc..

by the way since I was shown some of the program of thought in weeks I know why I or we find ourselves or what we do amazing ( desire, self pride..), it is an automatic sort of complementary vital adds on to thought's analytical program in order to make it work, using goals for that matter otherwise thought would not work..it is needed and vital when we are not not "awakened" ( sorry for such heavy word but it will do for now) when young..since we do not awake fully, and light years from it now, to what we are so to our other capacities , this is still at work as a by default program, ..quite impossible to show to another,

for me the state of the mental is what matters first, the rest is of secondary importance ..then one can have little but enough to survive and be fully alive , by opposition when one is not alive one needs a lot of possession and all of it ...yet it does not work..

Clive Elwell wrote:
Yes, it certainly seems that any effort of thought to solve a problem only makes things worse, or creates new problems. This is observable. Like you, I cannot "prove it", but it certainly seems to be so. Which is rather disastrous, since we are educated and raised on the assumption that properly applied, thought will solve ALL problems.

I was going to ask WHY thought creates endless problems, but have I not just stated why - that it is limited? That thought is intrinsically fragmented, and the action of a fragment always brings more disorder?

Agreed on most of it...K was keen on the fragment situation of thought yes, in this matter I saw nothing so cannot say anything worthy

but even logic here applied with passion, interest , consistency and thoroughly to such question of thought creating problems will bring forth this possible fact that all what takes place is right..thought has limits, fields of capacities and more important fields where it must not go at all....when doing so this is immediately signalled to us but we do not get it anymore...this signal will become what we call suffering as it increases itself all the time until we do the right thing ...if we do not it will not stop...this is where I was shown a countdown hidden behind that..I let you guess what for it is..

in other words the Origin x is behind all that of course it is, in that case indirectly .
why indirectly ? because when the Origin beyond time which is unknown for us apart in visions for some , but Origin is not matter caught in time like birth and death , when the Origin directly creates it becomes of time like matter and have matter qualities;

in our case, a direct influence by the Origin (ground or whatever word suits here) could not solve our thought problems to make a supposedly perfect program because perfection is not of matter, it is not absolute if I may say that, it is not timeless... we as one "object" of creation are able to be directly touched by the ground as it wishes ( thanks k and Bohm ) no need to be shy here,touched in different but not better ways than other creatures..creatures comes from creation of course ..right away here thought will catch such statement and again right away go wrong with it..we are the top of creation ..we are fantastic, great and all the same old bullshit.

this can eventually take place only when and if thought has stopped leading the brain mind..to do so what one can do ? nothing as will is still of thought.

We so have put aside the possibility of a direct influence from the ground , what is left is now an indirect influence of some sort, something which already is from the start in our programs..in the analytical program...it is a glitch , a vital one to go beyond the program, the glitch is the symptom of error and is the only catalyst we have in order to turn the lead into gold,mentally speaking ..allowing this "otherness" to come and visit us as it wishes, this of course is unknown ...I guess it is the famous for some wholly spirit, the holy grail etc...all those old text come from much very older sources, perhaps older than 12800 years, yes our history of course is rather false if not entirely when it comes too such past ..but not the point here.

if there is truth in this it means that all the time what takes place is meant to take place , so today madness is on the right track of course suffering included, thought's failure etc the problem is it does not accomplish its purpose and this is dangerous as well as painful..if It was not painful there would not be any k web sites no grumpy human up to very insane ones , unfortunately leading us..

this is meant to be , have the purpose to make thought totally overwhelmed and question when it suffers...this does not produce what it is meant to do any more ..thought has totally lost touch with its mission , whatever the reasons are..

since childhood I have been caught into suffering, very heavy , yet have a very good energy...did all the tricks about suffering to run away of course it is impossible I know it now, then suffering won, thought accepted to be defeated..and miracles immediately took place..in such moment not only thought is not searching for anything but what is now for us unconscious was part of it too..this is why suffering is vital...nothing else will tame thought, thought must be tamed, then life can be..we are not alive as such you know ..we are suffering mechanical objects

in other words thought has the key to the next stage of our lives but this function does not work any more, it has the key in the sense that thought has to be defeated will see it and do the proper thing about that, defeated by its many mistakes creating sorrow and all of the other nasty effects, but by ignorance and mental laziness,we have become used to all that and turned into masochist people ...

like suffering and the attempt to run away from it may lead one to suicide it will lead mankind to some sort of suicide too..we actually work hard on that very point....

I suspect that the Origin will eventually stop mankind failure experiment at some stage ..no proof..

Anyway, we are meant to be lead by the Ground, thought being a tool will be used by the ground...it does not need to be there permanently nor one will get the full "blast" from it ...it may sufficiently alter thought mistakes to get a life..

so amazingly we have created such a mess that or it will destroy
us or it will find its way to force us to go where we must...the sooner the better ,why not right now .???

Animals, plants , stones , etc are all under the ground " management" and we are totally wrong to substitute ourselves with animals and plants...

we are caught in a mechanical program and the strain of the machine hurts..

etc

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sun, 10 Jun 2018.

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Mon, 11 Jun 2018 #25
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4432 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:

Thank you for your lengthy reply, Dan. As you are keen to work in your garden (and I know that call of the soil and season) I will not reply at length, interesting as it all is. Just a few comments that arise, and perhaps a look at this business of “The Ground”.

“for me the state of the mental is what matters first”
I presume this is felt by all the contributers to this forum.

“but even logic here applied with passion, interest , consistency and thoroughly to such question of thought creating problems will bring forth this possible fact that all what takes place is right”

“All that takes place is right”? That is hard to see in this insane, long-suffering world. I think you are saying that suffering brings about its own correction, and the more there is suffering, the more inevitable it becomes that we understand, learn from that suffering? Until eventually we must learn how to go beyond suffering? Looking at the world, as it is now and its whole history, there does not seem the slightest shred of evidence for such a statement, though I can see that turned into a belief, it offers some sort of comfort – as does all belief, in fact. Cities are built, and then razed to the ground in war. Our greed, habits and neglect is leading us to destroy the wonderful instrument of the human body. More and more people’s mental anguish leads them to suicide. There is vast inequality, and no justice. “The rich get rich and the poor get poorer”, as the song goes. Does the human race have to suffer even more before there is redemption? It cannot be, surely, simply that more tears have to be shed? And are not running out of time, before we destroy ourselves completely, and much of the planet?

Suffering is bringing about more and more imbalence, it is never intelligent. Can an unbalanced, unintelligent mind act to end suffering? That seems a vane hope.
But I can accept that we do not HOW to suffer. Or how to fear, how to fully go through anything.

I will post this now, and perhaps take up the issue of “The Ground” later.

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Mon, 11 Jun 2018 #26
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 124 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote: Until eventually
we must learn how to go beyond
suffering?

Hello Clive

for me this is the starting point..I have learnt it by exhausting all other possibilities at a very thoroughly and intense pace , and then I saw that this was in fact the starting point , not the ending one..yet it had been there for me before

As a young person like 10 ish I was going into that naturally out of the blue, then were there some impossible moments..then I lost it..my fault of course, yet it had to be understood more obviously so I had to fall again but deeper.

Clive Elwell wrote: “for me the state
of the mental is what matters first” I
presume this is felt by all the
contributors to this forum.

I do not know.

Clive Elwell wrote: “All that takes place is right”? That is hard to
see in this insane, long-suffering
world.

I mean that we harvest exactly what we sow , exactly like with suffering thought does not see or rather does not want to see that this mess is its mess, instead it keeps glorifying itself ( seen my last machine? great !!) by all means mechanically, stupidly , because its program is set up that way, as a child when one cannot yet do too much damage to others it is OK, yet already the problems have started ,just go in a playschool where adults leave kids unattended because they have no clues about themselves so about the children etc war has already started .....we are globally insane and again thought refuses to see this simple fact and say that it is the world which is insane as if it was not our global creation.

Clive Elwell wrote:

I think you are saying that suffering brings about its own correction, and the more there is suffering, the more inevitable it becomes that we understand, learn from that suffering? Until eventually we must learn how to go beyond suffering? Looking at the world, as it is now and its whole history, there does not seem the slightest shred of evidence for such a statement, though I can see that turned into a belief, it offers some sort of comfort – as does all belief, in fact. Cities are built, and then razed to the ground in war. Our greed, habits and neglect is leading us to destroy the wonderful instrument of the human body. More and more people’s mental anguish leads them to suicide. There is vast inequality, and no justice. “The rich get rich and the poor get poorer”, as the song goes. Does the human race have to suffer even more before there is redemption? It cannot be, surely, simply that more tears have to be shed? And are not running out of time, before we destroy ourselves completely, and much of the planet?

Suffering is bringing about more and more imbalance, it is never intelligent. Can an unbalanced, unintelligent mind act to end suffering? That seems a vane hope. But I can accept that we do not HOW to suffer. Or how to fear, how to fully go through anything.

Dan I am not talking of hope/not hope but sharing about what is a factual living attitude for me and some I know and share our experiences which is similar at this level, ...I am consciously trying to save some a lifetime lost in thinking only by sharing some experiments ( first time I mention that) , well it works with some close people I met, up to the point they themselves are ready to go,it is their choice...I could say more but it is not my feeling to push , what would be the point? yet i did that with my children, including with one yesterday as we spoke , I just say some experiment..life time ones ...

be sure that with most people they have no interest about suffering as a subject they just want it to go away with a miracle...by any means..for millennium it did not work , it seems that one does not learn..for me man had been properly living then we lost it...k's and Bohm wrong turn of course..

one does not learn from suffering directly, again thought is trying to intrude where it never should, thought is suffering is enough to say if understood so lived , but it does not see it ,all move from thought about that is pure illusion and lead to more problems ..suffering is a catalyst not a teacher..it is vital when we are wrong..this implies of course that " something knows" ...actual so called scientists and so called atheist or whatever would burn such words on their stake .

Fact is that in any k website the background generated by k words used as a method is too much in the way ( did it too long ago of course) ..in any political websites where i go telling the same, their background full of hatred, fear, hopes, despair, violence, etc plays the same trick..

I have just lived, due to my thorough stubbornness and the fact that i was born into heavy suffering so had to work on that, like some, I have just lived something very special for me in the first place and of course totally unexpected at first and after as well for me, in the sense not usually done by human, something which is leading oneself without any search for it so bypassing thought, to some clear partial turn on of some other capacities and their side effects, and try to say something simple like: I went and still go through that "door" and it is clearly a door to something different from thought , the main point in fact is: any expectation of any kind including what is not conscious prevent such move to produce its "redemptive" effects ...

the other capacities do not analyse, do not create hierarchies , do not judge, do not compare, do not divide, do not know fear, do not know suffering ,contain a transmitter receiver..like in practical fields for real time telepathic talk from brain to brain..and god knows what else..

this cannot be used for personal glory or whatever other stupidity at this level ..to have lived what one is so suffering for some reasons prevents that to be

thought is the problem and in what I see like some do, it is because it was never meant to function as the only capacity of our brains except for early childhood.., it creates this sensation we call suffering which has to be lived..not thought about, not explained, not tamed, not faced , not rejected , not not not...at some stage all what must be in one's life is this sensation called suffering....

suffering is not a good word..yet it will do for now

you say: Does the human race have to suffer even more before there is redemption?

it is not that we have to suffer, it is just like that..and suffering will not stop until we live it..(and here any plan about what will take place again will always be wrong..no prediction can be made is what I know .)

why ? because thought is suffering, one item and sees itself and suffering, two item..what it sees has no existence so like don Quijote we are fighting windmills that we take for giant soldiers ..

in other words the division applied to anything it analyses by thought is only valid in practical fields and as such it is absolutely vital, no thought = no organic life of any kind ..

in other words we must be in duality in practical fields, the observer is the observed and make choices, and in "unity" (if I may say such not quite right word but it will do for now) in non practical fields

etc..my guess is that there is no end to that...at least not for a human lifetime anyway...

but by making suffering unintelligent and bringing more problems again is another trick played by thought..

thought says one main thing: not me, not my fault...

so we are drowning and drowning and drowning and........further down continually..

etc

for my own sake I will stop that address here for some time because it will go round and round in circles as I merely say the exact same thing all the time on that specific subject purposely, as one may end up only writing and this is certainly not a good idea at all as far as I am concerned ...I am writing on some other sites and does not wish to over write..

cheerio..all the best..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 11 Jun 2018 #27
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
one does not learn from suffering directly, again thought is trying to intrude where it never should, thought is suffering is enough to say if understood so lived , but it does not see it ,all move from thought about that is pure illusion and lead to more problems

Clive and Dan,

I think this is simply another way of saying that ‘I’/self/me is suffering...no division between the two because they are NOT two.....only the one fact of me/suffering. If the fact is not seen, ‘I’ try to act on suffering...escape from suffering....seek more pleasure and fulfilling experiences.

Let it Be

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Mon, 11 Jun 2018 #28
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 605 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul, quoting K's QOTD, wrote:

Now is not liberation from the cause of conflict and sorrow the primary issue? If we do not lay emphasis upon this how will the solution of the secondary problems stop war? If we do not root out the causes of war in ourselves, of what value is it to tinker with the outward results of our inner state? We must, each one, dig deeply and clear away lust, ill will and ignorance; we must utterly abandon nationalism, racialism and those causes that breed enmity. We must concern ourselves wholly with that which is of primary importance and not be confused with secondary issues.

Now what is the point of quoting this if in my/your heart I believe that it applies only to "others" and not to "me", if in my heart I believe that others - and not ME - are responsible for the mess? The cause of war is humanity's self-centred perspective which divides and isolates individuals and nations. It is not the Hungarian government's hypocrisy, it is not the actions of the shadowy powers manipulating the refugee crisis, it is not Trump and his supporters which are causing the global crisis. Those ARE the secondary crises. The primary crisis is the crisis in human consciousness.

If I believe that the crisis lies everywhere but within, if I believe that "others" are responsible, that means that I do not look within at MY greed, anxiety, conceit, ambition, fear, contradictions, and so on - it is these which are the PRIMARY causes of war. End those primary causes and can it be that what there is then in the human heart is love, not war?

Here's more from that same QOTD.

(Ojai, California | 4th Public Talk 1945):

So what are we to do? We cannot withdraw to an island or to a primitive community, for the present culture is everywhere. So what can we do? Shall we refuse to support war by not paying taxes, not buying stamps? Is that the primary issue? If it is not, and if it is only the secondary, then do not let us be distracted by it.

Is not the primary issue much deeper, that of the cause of war itself? If we can understand the cause of war then the secondary issue can be approached from a different point of view altogether; if we do not understand, then we shall be lost in it. If we can free ourselves from the causes of war then perhaps the secondary problem may not arise at all.

So emphasis must be laid upon the discovery within oneself of the cause of war; this discovery must be made by each one and not by an organized group, for group activities tend to make for thoughtlessness, mere propaganda and slogan, which only breed further intolerance and strife. The cause must be self-discovered and thus each one through direct experience liberates himself from it.

If we consider deeply we are well aware of the causes of war: passion, ill will and ignorance; sensuality, worldliness and the craving for personal fame and continuity; greed, envy and ambition; nationalism with its separate sovereignties, economic frontiers, social divisions, racial prejudices and organized religion. Cannot each one be aware of his greed, ill will, ignorance, and so free himself from them? We hold to nationalism for it is an outlet to our cruel, criminal instincts; in the name of our country or ideology we can murder or liquidate with impunity, become heroes, and the more we kill our fellowmen the more honor we receive from our country.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 11 Jun 2018.

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Mon, 11 Jun 2018 #29
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 915 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
If I believe that the crisis lies everywhere but within, if I believe that "others" are responsible, that means that I do not look within at MY greed, anxiety, conceit, ambition, fear, contradictions, and so on - it is these which are the PRIMARY causes of war. End those primary causes and can it be that what there is then in the human heart is love, not war?

I would agree Huguette that this is a fact: the 'outer' is the aggregate result of the 'inner'. The state of the outer is "secondary" to the state of the inner. If the root cause of the greed, fear, ambition, conflict, suffering, etc. is not discovered in myself for what it is, the outer can only change, if at all, superficially. And the 'seeing', the discovery must be without motive or desire for reward or it is just a continuation of the old.

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Mon, 11 Jun 2018 #30
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 124 posts in this forum Offline

Hello to all and

thanks to all for the sharing,

I now withdraw from this talk, without deleting this time..

all the best..;-)

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Mon, 11 Jun 2018.

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