Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

high sensitivitive (QOTD MAY 17,2018)


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Thu, 17 May 2018 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

The Only Revolution | Europe Part 20

Surely this is a false approach, isn't it? It is said that these drugs give an experience approximating to reality therefore they give hope and encouragement. But the shadow is not the real; the symbol is never the fact. As is observed throughout the world, the symbol is worshipped and not the truth. So isn't it a phony assertion to say that the result of these drugs is near the truth? No dynamic golden pill is ever going to solve our human problems. They can be solved only by bringing about a radical revolution in the mind and the heart of man. This demands hard, constant work, seeing and listening, and thus being highly sensitive. The highest form of sensitivity is the highest intelligence, and no drug ever invented by man will give this intelligence. Without this intelligence there is no love; and love is relationship. Without this love there is no dynamic balance in man. This love cannot be given - by the priests or their gods, by the philosophers, or by the golden drug.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 17 May 2018 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Although he is pointing to an chemical drug, what about the drug of stating: ' I'm high sensivitive ' and using that as an escape for their own incapability of handling a situation or claiming knowing the real state of mind of other people.

Are this not as well drugs made by man ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 18 May 2018 #3
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4532 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Are this not as well drugs made by man ??

There are many drugs, many escapes. The reluctance to see things as they are is almost universal.

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Fri, 18 May 2018 #4
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
There are many drugs, many escapes. The reluctance to see things as they are is almost universal.

Is it that, are the addicted not trying to escape what they are ??

Can something interesting not also become a habit and an addiction ?

Look at those who became addicted to their mobile phone/tablets !
Even the teaching or being active or passive involved in this forum can become something it is not meant to be.

Let us not make "what is" into a holy grail !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 18 May 2018 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4532 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Even the teaching or being active or passive involved in this forum can become something it is not meant to be.

Indeed, any activity of the mind can become habitual. This underlines the significance of being aware, doesn't it, Being aware of our patterns, habits. And one observes that without trying to change them, in the light of this awareness habits somehow drop away.

Wim Opdam wrote:
Let us not make "what is" into a holy grail !

I am not quite sure what you mean by that phrase "holy grail", but I presume you are inferring "something to be sought after", an ideal to be achieved.

Again, the mind can, and does, turn anything into an idea. This seems to be so instinctive, so basic a movement, that we do not realise that we are doing it, we loose track of the difference between the idea and the actual. And of course this applies to the idea of "what is".

Nevertheless, the choiceless awareness of what is seems to me to be the only "way" beyond the confusion, violence and misery that mankind exists in. And is this not the essence of K's teachings? And I say again, one observes that choiceless awareness is almost entirely lacking in how human consciousness approaches its problems - it is to busy postulating solutions through ideas, ideologies, belief systems.

Wim, you opened this thread as an inquiry into sensitivity. Is it not choiceless awareness alone that can bring this sensitivity about? If not, then what? This means being sensitive to what is, does it not? Not choosing, not condemning, not reacting and creating "what should be's" from what is. And if one sometimes gets lost on the journey, is it not this awareness that reveals that we ARE lost?

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Sat, 19 May 2018 #6
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 958 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is it not choiceless awareness alone that can bring this sensitivity about? If not, then what? This means being sensitive to what is, does it not? Not choosing, not condemning, not reacting and creating "what should be's" from what is. And if one sometimes gets lost on the journey, is it not this awareness that reveals that we ARE lost?

There is a 'felt' danger in 'choiceless awareness' isn't there? Without the 'controller' one is 'at sea' without a compass? No one to turn to to ask ,"is this the right way?" Away from the comfort of the soothing words and ideas, one is faced with the unknown in oneself. And one does not 'know' the outcome...(and the imagined 'outcomes' can be quite frightening). In certain moments one can see why we have not changed. How 'fear' keeps us in our place.

But it is precisely that 'fear' (those thoughts and images) that must not be 'run from', resisted, and yet not be indulged. Then they can wither in the 'cleansing' light of awareness.

"Getting lost" on the 'journey'(upstream?) is as I see it, to use K.'s metaphor, is to end 'movement' and take refuge on an 'island' in the 'stream'.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 19 May 2018.

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Sat, 19 May 2018 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive,

Reading the QOTD, the combination of the concepts 'sensitive', 'drugs'
and ' man made ', put me on the track of what can and should be involved.

One can say this is choiceless awareness in action and if so, is it the only way ?

Saying yes or no would that not be based on knowledge of those concepts ??

This kind of problems occurs if one is communicating about the teaching, is it not ?

That's the reason why I put a question, in stead of stating it is such or so !

Not the answers are important but the questioning.

After formulating this and reading the QOTD seeing also the shortcoming of it.

K.
"The confidence of which I speak is understanding, not the 'I understand',
but understanding without self-identification."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 19 May 2018.

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Tue, 22 May 2018 #8
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Lately I found myself in the position of wording the understanding and seeing the knowledge of the teaching is the obstacle, so yes this letting go of knowledge seems essential.

That's why I love to read this QOTD:

Ommen Camp, Holland | 4th Public Talk 10th August, 1938

There is only one fundamental problem, which expresses itself in many different ways. Each one of us is conscious of a particular difficulty and desires to grapple with that difficulty by itself. In solving one's peculiar difficulty, one may eventually come upon the central problem, but during the process of getting there the mind becomes weary and has acquired knowledge, formulas, standards, which really stand in the way of its understanding the one central problem. Some of us try to trace each problem to its source, and in the process of examination and analysis we are learning, we are accumulating so-called knowledge. This knowledge gradually becomes formulas, patterns. Experience has given us memories and values which guide and discipline and which must inevitably condition.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 22 May 2018 #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4532 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Lately I found myself in the position of wording the understanding and seeing the knowledge of the teaching is the obstacle, so yes this letting go of knowledge seems essential.

Indeed Wim. I have long felt that the essence of K's teachings lies in the title of one his books: "Freedom from the Known". And that of course includes K's teachings its self. It is so very subtle.

Yes, in apparently understanding and "going beyond" one aspect of the mind, we are drawing conclusions, accumulating some other knowledge, which in itself has to be understood. Is there an end to this process?

If there is, I would say it lies in "inviting death into our lives". That is, always being open to the ending of our knowledge - which is actually the ending of ourselves, as we are that knowledge. The self IS what has been accumulated. We cannot of course deliberately die to the past, but do we see the necessity of doing that? Do we see that that is "the only answer"?

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Wed, 23 May 2018 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
We cannot of course deliberately die to the past, but do we see the necessity of doing that? Do we see that that is "the only answer"?

To acknowledge "It's the only answer" would that not be based on knowledge ?

What is seen is that in a verbal dialogue the absence of the knowledge of teaching is regularly there but as soon as i gone write - like on this forum - it is a hindrance.

I suppose it has to do with the gap in time and or the writing in not my own language, amongst may be other elements.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 23 May 2018 #11
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4532 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
To acknowledge "It's the only answer" would that not be based on knowledge ?

When I ask "do we see .....?", one is not asking for mere acknowledgement. One is not looking for a yes/no answer. It is a genuine question, and as such it is asking to be looked at, examined, held.

We will not see that it is "the only answer" (which perhaps is an unfortunate phrase) if we think there are other answers - that is, answers based in thought. Then thought will pursue these 'answers'. (I would say as a means of occupation in fact). But if the complete futility of thought is seen, in the psychological or 'spiritual' field, then what? Then are we faced with the ending of whole psychological field - which is the 'dying' that we have been talking of.

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Thu, 24 May 2018 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
We will not see that it is "the only answer" (which perhaps is an unfortunate phrase) if we think there are other answers - that is, answers based in thought.

That's one of the possible explanations, another is that going in on this question is the closing of the door, without any presumptions, without thought or just the opposite full of presumptions and thought !

Isn't that the reason why one distinct 'open' and 'closed' questions and are the questions K. asked us not 'open questions, so there is never a yes or no answer !

And the necessity to look into it with care ?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 24 May 2018.

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Thu, 24 May 2018 #13
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4532 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Isn't that the reason why one distinct 'open' and 'closed' questions and are the questions K. asked us not 'open questions, so there is never a yes or no answer !

I know that K said that a fundamental question is one which has no answer. And I know he said life has no simple yes and no answers. But I have not come across this asking us not to open questions - could you give the quote, Wim?

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Fri, 25 May 2018 #14
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But I have not come across this asking us not to open questions - could you give the quote, Wim?

Where in this observation of the totality of the Teaching and the characteristic of the questions K. asked us, did I say this is something K. asked u to distinguish ?

Wim Opdam wrote:
Isn't that the reason why one distinct 'open' and 'closed' questions and are the questions K. asked us not 'open questions, so there is never a yes or answer !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 26 May 2018 #15
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4532 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Where in this observation of the totality of the Teaching and the characteristic of the questions K. asked us, did I say this is something K. asked u to distinguish ?

OK Wim, it seems that I have misunderstood your words, sorry.

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Sat, 26 May 2018 #16
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
OK Wim, it seems that I have misunderstood your words, sorry.

No need for sorry Clive but thanks anyway !

Isn't this a good example how mechanistic thought is working, one hear or see some words which are common in both messages and one stumbles to a misunderstanding.

P.s.after one hour suddenly saw It's better to say:

'slipping' instead of stumbles

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 26 May 2018.

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Sun, 27 May 2018 #17
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4532 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Isn't this a good example how mechanistic thought is working, one hear or see some words which are common in both messages and one stumbles to a misunderstanding.

I have often discovered that I have acted, or rather reacted, based on a complete misunderstanding, mis-comprehension, of a situation, of the facts. Such a realisation is quite humbling.

And then there is the deeper issue of the realisation that one has reacted according to an image one has been holding. That is, acted according to a projection of the self.

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Mon, 28 May 2018 #18
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Such a realisation is quite humbling.

Yesterday, reading chapter 3 in "Truth and Actuality" about the seed of Truth, which has a live on its own and must grow, I wondered if the sequence of events may not been seen as time, but as one whole action even if it takes time.

K. said -if remembered well - Truth and being humble going together.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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