Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

the extraordinary state of being nothing, of coming to the abyss of an eternal movement, and dropping over the edge


Displaying posts 31 - 49 of 49 in total
Tue, 15 May 2018 #31
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

Here it is, but there are more hints in this second chapter:

Dr. Bohm: I would say there is a kind of thinking that communicates insight. The insight is non-verbal, but the thinking itself is not non-verbal. There is the kind of thinking which is dominated by the word and there is another kind of thinking whose order is determined, not by the word, but by the insight.

Krishnamurti: Is the insight the product of thought?

Dr. Bohm: No, but insight works through thought. Insight is never the product of thought.

Krishnamurti: Obviously not.

Dr. Bohm: But it may work through thought. I wanted to say that the thought through which insight is working has a different order from the other kind of thought. I want to distinguish those two. You once gave an example of a drum vibrating from the emptiness within. I took it to mean that the action of the skin was like the action of thought. Is that right?

Krishnamurti: Yes, that’s right. Now, how does insight take place? Because if it is not the product of thought, not the process of organized thought and all the rest of it, then how does this insight come into being?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 15 May 2018 #32
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

And another quote

Krishnamurti: Yes, the thinker is the thought. Now, is that energy different from the energy of conditioning and the activity of the conditioning and reality? Is that energy the perception of truth? – and therefore it has quite a different quality of energy.

Dr. Bohm: It seems to have the quality of being free of, not being bound by the conditioning.

Krishnamurti: Yes. Now I want to make it practical to myself. I see this whole thing that you have described to me. I have got a fairly good mind, I can argue, explain it, all the rest of it, but this quality of energy doesn’t come. And you want me to have this quality, out of your compassion, out of your understanding, out of your perception of truth. You say, “Please, see that”. And I can’t see it, because I’m always living in the realm of reality. You are living in the realm of truth and I can’t. There is no relationship between you and me. I accept your word, I see the reason for it, I see the logic of it, I see the actuality of it, but I can’t break it down.

How will you help – I’m using that word hesitantly – how can you help me to break this down? It’s your job, because you see the truth and I don’t. You say, “For God’s sake, see this”. How will you help me? Through words? Then we enter into the realm with which I am quite familiar. This is actually going on, you understand? So what is one to do? What will you do with me, who refuses to see something which is just there? And you point out that as long as we live in this world of reality, there is going to be murder, death – everything that goes on there. There is no answer in that realm for any of our problems. How will you convey this to me? I want to find out, I’m very keen, I want to get out of this.

Dr. Bohm: It’s only possible to communicate the intensity. We already discussed all the other factors that are communicated.

Krishnamurti: You see, what you say has no system, no method, because they are all part of the conditioning. You say something totally new, unexpected, to which I haven’t even given a single moment of thought. You come along with a basketful and I do not know how to receive you. This has been really a problem; to the prophets, to every...

Dr. Bohm: It seems nobody has really succeeded in it.

Krishnamurti: Nobody has. It’s part of education that keeps us constantly in the realm of reality.

Dr. Bohm: Everyone is expecting a path marked out in the field of reality.

Krishnamurti: You talk of a totally different kind of energy from the energy of reality. And you say that energy will wipe all this out, but it will use this reality.

Dr. Bohm: Yes, it will work through it.9

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 15 May 2018 #33
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How did we get to ‘dying all the time’ from the gap between thoughts?

Space between thought means that thought is not operating, no? And no thought means no self, no?, since it is thought that creates the self.

So does not this space between thought imply a psychological death has taken place. It is clear that we are talking of psychological dying, is it not?

I say "imply" because this is a theoretical explanation. But one can FEEL this dying, or feel its effect. Exactly how it is felt is an interesting question that arises now.But really thought cannot touch it.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 15 May 2018 #34
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Can an answer about the unknown/God/afterdead or whatever name we stick on it be given verbally ??

How is the unknown to be explored? Clearly "unknown" means untouched by the know, and I AM the known. So this is an interesting question/question.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 15 May 2018 #35
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

As you know, over and over again K has asked us if we can die to the past. Die to all our attachments. I felt the passion of this call so strongly this morning, on wakening. Especially I felt it as a call to die to all the movements towards psychological security – and in essence are there any other movements in the mind?

And I saw what a miserable life it is, when that drive towards psychological security dominates that life.

So can we face impermanency, now? Thata seems to be the essence of the challenge. Not to be sure, not to take refuge in beliefs, in ideas? Feeeling that is an enormous thing.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 16 May 2018 #36
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2215 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

How did we get to ‘dying all the time’ from the gap between thoughts?

Space between thought means that thought is not operating, no? And no thought means no self, no?, since it is thought that creates the self.

So does not this space between thought imply a psychological death has taken place.

I would think so, yes. But this is not the transformation or 'mutation' that K spoke of, because the self is still ready to spring into action at any time. The brain is still operating in division and fragmentation once thought returns....as I see it, and I may be mistaken.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 16 May 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 16 May 2018 #37
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
And no thought means no self, no?, since it is thought that creates the self.

How can thought, being the past, create something new ??

Is it not simply the same illusion as creating "God" as the creator of all there is ??

Thoughts are there to look at, to investigate if they are false , driven by the past or used to convey Truth !

Are all the talks and dialogues of K. with or without friends not the investigation of the rightness or falseness of what's going on in our minds ?.

Is it driven by the past or used by awareness ?

Are all this questions above coming from the unknown, in need of an answer or coming from the knowledge of the teaching or inspired by them ?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 16 May 2018 #38
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2215 posts in this forum Offline

Just a note: that was Clives statement that you are quoting above, Wim. You attributed it to me.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 16 May 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 16 May 2018 #39
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Just a note: that was Clives statement that you are quoting above, Wim. You attributed it to me.

I selected the text indeed from Clive's reply but to my surprise you were mentioned, so I assumed the origin came from you, but does it really matter ? We are all in this dialogue, are we not and this is has or can be meaningful for all of us.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 16 May 2018 #40
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2215 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
does it really matter ?

Only in a practical sense. Since Clive said it, I think I’ll wait and see how Clive responds, as I don’t have an answer or question forthcoming.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 16 May 2018 #41
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Yes, I suppose I am asking that. K said that the ‘me’ can end, I think....that violence can end...conflict...that one can be totally free of fear. He didn’t mean that it ends momentarily only to come back again full force the next moment, did he? I should also add, that he spoke of a total transformation...a mutation of the brain, in fact.

But he did vehemently deny time as a factor of change, didn't he? And surely a concern for a permanent solution to fear, or any of our problems, is a measurement that only time makes?

I'm not saying that such a "permanent" transformation is not possible, but I'm suggesting that a mind that thinks in such terms is not actually concerned with transformation. it is concerned with security. And a mind that is so concerned can never transform. It's just another form, another manifestation of desire, is it not?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 17 May 2018 #42
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2215 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
'm not saying that such a "permanent" transformation is not possible, but I'm suggesting that a mind that thinks in such terms is not actually concerned with transformation. it is concerned with security.

True enough, Clive. I was not implying that we should seek a permanent end to suffering...to violence...to fear. Only that K said that there can be an end to conflict and suffering...a total mutation in the brain...a transformation....which to me, is more significant then the space between thoughts....a temporary gap in thinking.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 17 May 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 22 May 2018 #43
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

I am still pondering, looking at, this issue of dying, in its different manifestations. Here is a quote I have posted before:

"There is the thought of human beings as a great stream - everybody wants to go on - and in that stream the thought of you remains. And when the medium calls upon you, you manifest, out of that stream, because you are still there, still there in your daily life, because you are still pursuing the same thing that every human being is pursuing - security, permanency, "me' and 'not me',"we' and `they', this constant concern with yourself in that stream in which all human beings are caught. When you die your thought of yourself goes on in that stream as it is going on now - as a Christian, Buddhist, whatever you please - greedy, envious, ambitious, frightened, pursuing pleasure - that is this human stream in which you are caught. Unless you step out of it now you will go on in that stream - obviously. Can the mind step out of that and face complete impermanency, now? If you have understood, that is death, is it not?"

I am puzzled by the phrase “in your daily life”. here. If you are dead, what is this “daily life”? I may be missing something important here, and I would appreciate it if anyone has anything to comment on this.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 24 May 2018 #44
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 561 posts in this forum Offline

To paraphrase Eldridge Cleaver, “The mind is either part of the solution or part of the problem”. The difficulty in this is that there are a multitude of opinions on what “the problem” is. And even where there is agreement on what the problem is, there is a multitude of opinions on what the solution is.

Whatever one does, whatever action one takes, however one behaves, is necessarily part of the problem or part of the solution. If I treat you with hate, contempt, violence, fear, indifference, and so on, and you respond likewise, that IS the relationship. Hate, contempt, violence, fear, indifference, and so on, are rooted in self, which is rooted in thought, knowledge, the past, the mind, the brain, and so on. If you treat me with love, compassion, understanding, and I respond according to my conditioning, the relationship is nonetheless altered. A seed is planted. It may bear fruit. The seed of love, compassion, understanding, intelligence, is not planted intentionally, cunningly, with a motive. If there is motive or cunning, it is not love. Cunning cannot plant the seed of love, compassion, understanding, intelligence, and so on.

And obviously, I cannot treat you with love, compassion and understanding if I do not feel it. I can pretend, but pretense is not the thing. Just as I can’t prevent hate and fear from expressing themselves in relationship or action if hate and fear are acting in me and there is no awareness.

The multitude of definitions and analyses given for the chaos in the world are not different from the problem itself. The totality of all the opposing opinions, the endless words, debates, arguments, anger, animosity, etc., is like a great noise rising to the heavens. It is our conditioning, our indoctrination, the stream, which makes the mind approach problems through debate, argument, opposing opinions. The truth is not uncovered through debate. The truth is seen or perceived or understood and, from that, there may be verbal expression, or not. If the truth is understood, it can express itself in other ways than verbally.

K points out that it is very simple: there is only one problem, and that problem is consciousness - the self, permanence, continuity, time, desire, fear, attachment, ideas, beliefs, the indoctrination of the global mind, and so on, which are all interrelated aspects of the one problem.

Jacques Cousteau said something to the effect that the pollution from the smoke of every single cigarette ends up in the depths of the oceans.

A disordered mind is like the cigarette. It pollutes relationship, the network or totality of which constitutes society or “the world”. Whatever decision and action the disordered mind makes is therefore tainted by or part of its disorder. Whatever philosophy, ideas, politics, religion, etc., the disordered mind adopts as a basis for action, its action is tainted by or part of disorder. And just as the ocean and streams, sky and earth can refresh or unpollute themselves, so can the mind unpollute itself. As long as the pollution stops. For all living things, there IS a point of irreversibility for pollution, isn't there?

Disorder is the result of conditioning or indoctrination. Disorder is self-centeredness, conceit, hate, pretense, fear, violence. (I’m not talking of pathologies of the brain which can also affect perception and action.) Disorder is the psychological darkness of self-ignorance.

The mind can bring order about within by grounding itself in awareness, not by grounding itself in its disorder. Awareness is not part of the disorder, and the disorder is not awareness. The mind has the ability to understand these things.

“DB: I think that it would help if we could see with regard to the brain whether it has any activity which is beyond thought. You see, for example, one could ask, is awareness part of the function of the brain?

JK: As long as it is awareness in which there is no choice.

(The Future of Humanity Chapter 2 2nd Conversation with David Bohm Brockwood Park 20th June 1983)

The disordered mind is cunning and vigilance is needed. The disordered mind can be extremely subtle and it infiltrates awareness with subtlety. The disordered, conditioned, indoctrinated mind will adopt awareness as its motto or method. It will try to appropriate awareness into its field of conflict.

So what is vigilance and “who” is vigilant? We were talking earlier about the action of awareness, intensity, intelligence, understanding, and so on. These actions are not the action of the self-centre. In the same way, vigilance is not the action of the self-centre. As I understand it, these are total action which arises from unfragmented mind, which is order. The qualities of vigilance, sensitivity, awareness, intensity, intelligence, understanding, love, compassion, freedom, and so on, cannot be broken down into fragments. One quality cannot be extracted from this totality. Fragmentation is the activity of the self-centre, disorder. There is no love without freedom, no intelligence without awareness, no vigilance without intelligence, no sensitivity without understanding … and so on. No?

“If there is no action following understanding, there is no understanding, obviously.
[...]
One wants security, not only for oneself but for the whole of humanity: that is love, that is compassion. But that compassion and love is totally denied when one seeks security in a neurotic concept, a thing formulated by thought, a thing formulated by a materialistic attitude. When an action is based on a concept, which is itself totally material, then division must inevitably take place - battles, quarrels, agony.
(6th Public Talk Saanen, 25th July 1974)


“An intelligent mind acts in the field of thought intelligently, sanely, without resistance; it is free from the structure and implications of attachment, from the action of attachment, from the pursuit of power with all its complications, the ruthlessness of it. It sees the dividing process of thought, and seeing that clearly, totally, it has energy; that energy is intelligence. Having that energy, that intelligence, it can operate in the field of thought, not the other way round.
(Talks in Saanen 1974, 2nd Public Talk 16th July 1974)"


“When you yourself see the truth of this wholeness, action has quite a different meaning. The tomorrow altogether disappears, but yet tomorrow exists in your arrangements, the planning of daily life; but this planning is contained in the wholeness and is not separate from it.

There is the action of thought and the action of non-thought. The action of thought has its place, but it does not bring about the flowering of goodness. The action of non-thought does. Thought does not breed love; it breeds satisfaction, pleasure, the self-centred activity which has nothing whatsoever to do with love and goodness. The wholeness of action is love.

(Chapter 71 - Freedom is sane living in daily life - The Whole Movement of Life Is Learning: Letters to His Schools)

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 24 May 2018.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 24 May 2018 #45
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
And just as the ocean and streams, sky and earth can refresh or unpollute themselves, so can the mind unpollute itself. As long as the pollution stops. For all living things, there IS a point of irreversibility for pollution, isn't there?

I have a strong suspicion that climate change has become irreversible, as more and more positive feedback factors area discovered, and more and more evidence from palaeontology, and what is happening now, points to run-away changes, of a tipping point having been broached. But is there a suggestion here that the human mind has gone beyond a tipping point? That is, the damage done to it and by it is irreversible, and it is incapable of healing itself (whether it has ever been capable of healing itself is debatable, better just say “is incapable of being healed”)? I think this is certainly a possibility, but I do not see how one could ever know this for sure. I am not saying that that you ARE saying this, Huguette.

In fact you go on to say the opposite, with:

The mind can bring order about within by grounding itself in awareness, not by grounding itself in its disorder. Awareness is not part of the disorder, and the disorder is not awareness. The mind has the ability to understand these things.

I have to say that I don’t know. I see that awareness has its own effect, and is outside of the disorder of the mind. But I cannot say that so far that it has bought about a complete transformation of the mind. But such a statement needs a lot of going into. Does awareness have a function, any function? Is it within the realm of cause and effect? For the mind to regard awareness as a tool to be used is a continuation of usage, exploitation, and so still within the field of the self. Again, I am not saying that you are implying this, Huguette, I am just discussing with myself. I think I am saying what K says in the quote you give:

“As long as it is awareness in which there is no choice”.

To continue ...

“The disordered mind is cunning and vigilance is needed. The disordered mind can be extremely subtle and it infiltrates awareness with subtlety. The disordered, conditioned, indoctrinated mind will adopt awareness as its motto or method. It will try to appropriate awareness into its field of conflict”

Very interesting. But this infiltration is not actual, is it?, just another deception of the mind, which as you say is very cunning and subtle. And as you say, it TRIES to appropriate awareness – but true awareness is aloof, is it not?

It is like intelligence – as soon as the mind tries to use intelligence, it is introducing its own bias, and so it is then NOT intelligence.

Thank you for finding all the quotes, Huguette. A question comes nagging, something to do with “where does one start, it seems a sort of circle”, but there is also a seeing that this is a wrong question. One either sees the truth, or one does not, and it is that seeing which can act. And to see that one does NOT see is also seeing, which has its own action, would you say?

I am not sure what happened to my original question, but never mind :-).

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
2 days ago #46
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 561 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I have a strong suspicion that climate change has become irreversible, as more and more positive feedback factors area discovered, and more and more evidence from palaeontology, and what is happening now, points to run-away changes, of a tipping point having been broached. But is there a suggestion here that the human mind has gone beyond a tipping point? That is, the damage done to it and by it is irreversible, and it is incapable of healing itself (whether it has ever been capable of healing itself is debatable, better just say “is incapable of being healed”)? I think this is certainly a possibility, but I do not see how one could ever know this for sure. I am not saying that that you ARE saying this, Huguette.


“Formerly one of the four largest lakes in the world with an area of 68,000 km2 (26,300 sq mi), the Aral Sea has been shrinking since the 1960s after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects. By 1997, it had declined to 10% of its original size, splitting into four lakes. [...] The eastern basin is now called the Aralkum Desert.” (Wikipedia)

There is a point beyond which it is too late to stop smoking cigarettes, too late to stop drinking alcohol, too late to reverse the melting polar ice. By "too late", I mean too late for the lungs, liver and earth to somewhat recover.

So in the context of matter, of the physical, there IS a tipping point, it seems. But the actions which are responsible for destroying food, air, water and species, for causing wars and other forms of violence, famine, the spread of disease, and so on, are the consequences of the mind’s ignorance. Ignorance doesn’t kill the brain directly, like cancer does. It incites the brain to act foolishly, destructively, selfishly.

So as I see it, there's no point of no return for the self - the self being an illusion, not a living organism. The brain/mind can heal from its darkness of ignorance but can it heal in time to reverse the consequences of man’s ignorance and bring the Earth back to health? Who knows. There are millions suffering those consequences right now - wars, famine, drought, disease, extreme poverty, dangerous work and living conditions, hate, and so on.

Each of us must in any case face the fact of death, the sword of Damocles seemingly hanging over humanity's head. Only then, it seems to me, can life be lived fully. Life cannot be lived fully when it is filled with fear.

This post was last updated by Huguette . 2 days ago.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
2 days ago #47
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 561 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I am not sure what happened to my original question, but never mind :-).

Clive, do you mean the question about daily life? In my mind, my post WAS related to that. Self-centred concerns, fears, hates, desires, ambitions, attachments, ideals, pleasure-seeking, and so on, are the root of my daily life, of all our daily lives, aren't they? So "daily life" is made up of countless fragments shaped by the same self-ignorance which causes war, exploitation and all the other expressions of self-centeredness. That is the stream, isn’t it? This stream of daily life is my legacy or contribution to the illusion of continuity. It is the stream which is the legacy of man. But if one “steps out” of the stream, there is a brand new legacy. I'm taking the liberty of repeating here one of my quotes from above:

“When you yourself see the truth of this wholeness, action has quite a different meaning. The tomorrow altogether disappears, but yet tomorrow exists in your arrangements, the planning of daily life; but this planning is contained in the wholeness and is not separate from it.
There is the action of thought and the action of non-thought. The action of thought has its place, but it does not bring about the flowering of goodness. The action of non-thought does. Thought does not breed love; it breeds satisfaction, pleasure, the self-centred activity which has nothing whatsoever to do with love and goodness. The wholeness of action is love.
(Chapter 71 - Freedom is sane living in daily life - The Whole Movement of Life Is Learning: Letters to His Schools”)

This post was last updated by Huguette . 2 days ago.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
5 hours ago #48
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
So as I see it, there's no point of no return for the self - the self being an illusion, not a living organism. The brain/mind can heal from its darkness of ignorance but can it heal in time to reverse the consequences of man’s ignorance and bring the Earth back to health? Who knows. There are millions suffering those consequences right now - wars, famine, drought, disease, extreme poverty, dangerous work and living conditions, hate, and so on.

Yesterday, after reading some articles about the state of the world – not just environmentally, but socially, culturally, politically, this incredible ruthlessness, cruelty of man for man, the violence in every country …… I became deeply affected by the human situation. And surely it is right that we DO feel these things, feel them very deeply? Not feeling them is really the cause of them, is it not, or at least the continuation of them?

But sometimes it feels ‘just too much’.

Both of us know the fundamental cause of man’s malaise and violence, we don’t have to go into that, unless we can penetrate more deeply into self understanding. We seem to be asking, has the state of human consciousness reached a tipping point, as the planet seems to have? Is consciousness beyond redemption, if I can use that word? You suggest there is no such point. I say I do not know.. But it may be a possibility.

Decades ago, K used to be asked questions like “can the approaching war be prevented?” And he said “no”. He said that with all the preparations for war, a huge momentum had been created which could not be turned aside. There was no stopping it, things had to play themselves out. That momentum is much greater now, isn’t it? Not just for military war, but generally in the decay, the deterioration, the corruption, the violence, the indifference in all the areas of society. It is all coming to a head, very rapidly. There is no one in charge of things – although some people think they ARE in charge, think they CAN control things, and this is very much part of the problem – just as it is directly in human consciousness.

However, this does not refute what you say, Huguette. You are saying, are you not, that there is always a possibility for human consciousness to somehow change track. That it is never what one might call “hopeless” - but best not to bring that word into the discussion.

I will stop here.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
5 hours ago #49
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Each of us must in any case face the fact of death, the sword of Damocles seemingly hanging over humanity's head. Only then, it seems to me, can life be lived fully. Life cannot be lived fully when it is filled with fear.

Huguette, are you referring to some sort of collective death of the human race, or individual death?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 31 - 49 of 49 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)