Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Fake world ?


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Mon, 26 Mar 2018 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

Yesterdays qoute K.Last sentence.
Whatever thoughts arise in the mind, think them through - all the hindrances of public opinion, past authorities, future wants, ideals and acquisitions. In thus facing them you will become free of these limitations.

For a few days now I see a lot of fake everywhere.

In the news the facts are manipulated to fit reality.
In advertising there is the promise for heaven on earth.
The film industries is telling us fairy tales of heroism and romance.

What is 'actual' is very hard to see in this fake world.

Do I fool myself or am I fooled ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 26 Mar 2018 #2
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 84 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
What is 'actual' is very hard to see in this fake world.

Yes, but as I see, the more distorted and perverted it gets, the more eloquently it asks us of integration within. In that sense, there is always an equilibrium maintained.

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Tue, 27 Mar 2018 #3
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
Yes, but as I see, the more distorted and perverted it gets, the more eloquently it asks us of integration within. In that sense, there is always an equilibrium maintained.

If equilibrium should always be maintained so called 'enlightenment' should create suffering,
that seems to me a very strange concept .

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 27 Mar 2018 #4
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
For a few days now I see a lot of fake everywhere.

In the news the facts are manipulated to fit reality.
In advertising there is the promise for heaven on earth.
The film industries is telling us fairy tales of heroism and romance.

What is 'actual' is very hard to see in this fake world.

Do I fool myself or am I fooled ??

I have sometimes thought that the real battle that is going on in the world is the battle for our minds, control of our minds. You touch on just a few examples in your mail, Wim. Everyone wants to condition how others think, from the domestic world of the family, to the huge industries of “spin”, disinformation, indoctrination. There is endless propaganda, including of course organised religion.

And then there is the more subtle problem of our “own” conditioning, and the pressures of our own desires and fears. Is this what you are referring to in your last sentence?
We know that increasingly “the news” is likely to be biased, and even contain untruths. We know we cannot trust what politicians and business men say, and in fact we need to be sceptical of ALL that is said. In any case, even with more honest reporting, we know that all knowledge is limited. This is necessarily so. “Knowledge is always in the shadow of ignorance”, as K said.

But knowing the limitations of knowledge, outer and inner, knowing we cannot expect truth from others, The problem then need not overwhelm us, wouldn’t you say?

We just have to be aware of all that is going on, in the outer world and the inner world.A complete answer lies in the K quote that you start the thread with, does it not?

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Wed, 28 Mar 2018 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
You touch on just a few examples in your mail, Wim.

I know, but the list seems endless :-)

Clive Elwell wrote:
And then there is the more subtle problem of our “own” conditioning,
and the pressures of our own desires and fears.
Is this what you are referring to in your last sentence?

Yes, all those very subtle forms of the "I" also counts!
Is being polite instead of honest also not one of them, which is used frequently ?

a sentence by David Bohm is now prominent: Change of meaning is change of being.

Wim Opdam wrote:
Do I fool myself or am I fooled ??

if negating the "I" we get : only fools are fooled !!

so be aware !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 29 Mar 2018 #6
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

Something came to me, Wim, following your mail on false and misleading news. As confusing as that all is – yet another manifestation of the on-going deterioration of the human mind – there is something more subtle, and even more misleading, than the false events presented as a fact from the media. By media I mean conventional news, social media, the discussions – mostly chatting – on TV and radio, the whole world of entertainment, and also just the things one hears from people around one.

I mean the false description of the nature of reality, the nature of the human mind. All the assumptions, the conclusions, the acceptance about “human nature”. As I write I realise what a huge topic this is. Perhaps the whole of these forums are really about unravelling these false descriptions and the implicit acceptance of them. And perhaps the greatest common myth that is propagated is that there is a thinker separate from his thoughts.

So much that could be said on this. Unless there is awareness, it is all there in the background, reinforcing, strengthening, our conditioning.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Thu, 29 Mar 2018.

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Fri, 30 Mar 2018 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Perhaps the whole of these forums are really about unravelling these false descriptions and the implicit acceptance of them.

Let us forget "perhaps" !

It is like a straightjacket of the mind without even realizing we are being bound to it and by it.

This morning in the last chapter of "truth and actuality" realized that only compassion in the true sence of the word can bring unity.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 30 Mar 2018 #8
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I don't see "perhaps" as a "straightjacket" Wm, but more as a word used to avoid being too assertive, too authoritative: "perhaps", "maybe", possibly", "might" are all words that say, "I don't know for sure but..." rather than "this is the way it is!"...

Neither do I Dan, one only hopes that's not my image that binds you .

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 30 Mar 2018 #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4266 posts in this forum Offline

A bit of an aside, perhaps, but the only book I have ever read that comes close to presenting human consciousness as it really is was "Ulysses" by James Joyce. There is a long soliloquy - is that the word? - by one of the characters, an attempt to represent the thought process as it really is - that is, a long, not to say endless stream, rather than some illusory me who does the thinking, who is "in charge".

And perhaps the book/play that represents the human condition the most closely was Becket's "Waiting for Godot" :-).

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Sat, 31 Mar 2018 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

I have no knowledge of both your examples but heard to day a poem line , which represent something real, actual.

"Knowledge is no power, but in the darkest time it can give some light"
From Willem Wilmink who was a Dutch poet whose lifejoy and tragedy was 'I always stayed 11 years' and was honoured this season in a talk show with one song or poem from his oeuvre.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 31 Mar 2018.

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Sun, 01 Apr 2018 #11
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

Seeing through is like:

two waves that start to break
realizing that they are not waves
but just be moved by the sea.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 04 Apr 2018 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 703 posts in this forum Offline

is the qotd giving the source of the fake ??

Santiago, Chile | 2nd Public Talk 7th September, 1935

Question: You have often said, "Perceive and understand the full significance of environment." Does this necessarily mean action coming into conflict with environment? Or is it mere perception, without any dynamic expression in action?

Krishnamurti: How can one truly discern if there is not action? There cannot be an intellectual discernment.
There is either deep understanding or the creation of mere theory.
If you desire to understand environment, not only the objective but the subjective which is so infinitely subtle, then you must individually come into conflict with it. It is only in conflict, in suffering, that you, the individual, begin to discern the true significance of values; and as most people are afraid to come into contact with suffering, they would rather intellectually perceive their significance. So they leave the responsibility of action to the mass, that vague and unreal entity, which they hope will miraculously alter their environment and so bring happiness to them.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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