Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

What exactly IS the state of awareness?


Displaying posts 91 - 119 of 119 in total
Sat, 07 Apr 2018 #91
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 810 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
And it is ALWAYS growing, always thrusting forth, into the unknown future, leaving the solid, immutable wood behind it. Yes, indeed.

That's the Universe in a nutshell!

Clive Elwell wrote:
Thought being linear is clear, and that linearity can be described as horizontal, ok. "Vertical" suggests to me - and this may be far-fetched - jumping off the surface, the area of usual movement, activity; jumping into, or through, a new dimension.

At least leaving something behind.

I don't think it is far-fetched, I think that is what it is but in the quote above he's using 'vertical' in this conversation as being just another "plane",another direction of thought similar in its limitedness, in its having a 'border'... as does the 'horizontal'. But yes the vertical' also to me is a 'jumping off', into the 'timeless', the Now.

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Sat, 07 Apr 2018 #92
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 520 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I find there is no clarity in me regarding K's use of the terms "horizontal and vertical" thinking. Why would he always (always as far as I know) link the two terms together if there was no difference between the two? His repeated use of the phrase seems to differentiate between them.

You do not find that the 2 quotes at #81 (repeated below + 1) make it clear that both vertical and horizontal movement are essentially the same movement, the same process?

I think that K often (but not always) linked the 2 terms together only to indicate that although there are superficial differences in the direction of thought, these different directions are essentially the same process of time at work, the same process of fragmentation and conflict. For example, it might seem that the Asian mind is different from the European mind, the African mind is different from the American mind, and so on. Or it might seem that there is a complete change of thinking when I give up my religious tradition and become an anarchist, or when I give up my wild ways and become a contributing member of society, and so on. But whether it is moving in this direction or that direction, time-thought is still linear. The "perceiving of truth" is not.

Huguette . wrote:
You know, when we said that the first step is the last step, were we not thinking of time as a horizontal or a vertical movement? Were we not thinking of movement along a plane? We were saying yesterday, when we were walking, if we could put aside height, the vertical and the horizontal altogether, and observe this fact that wherever we are, at whatever level of conditioning, of being, the perceiving of truth, of the fact, is at that moment the last step. (Tradition and Revolution Dialogue 5 New Delhi 19th December 1970 'The first step is the last step')

====

That is, anything put together, horizontal or vertical, is time. Cause and effect are in time. Cause becoming effect and the effect being the cause, are all within the field of time. Whether I move my hand up this way or that, whether the movement is linear or vertical - all these are in within the field of time. (Tradition and Revolution Dialogue 12 Madras 3rd January 'The paradox of causation')

Here's another one that, to me, sheds light on the matter:

Knowledge is put together. Knowledge horizontally or vertically is put together. Knowledge is a process. Process implies time. Time implies thought. So through thought, through knowledge, through time, you are trying to find something which is out of time, which is not knowledge, which is not thought. You cannot. (Tradition and Revolution Dialogue 14 Madras 5th January 1971 'Conflict and consciousness')

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Sun, 08 Apr 2018 #93
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

You do not find that the 2 quotes at #81 (repeated below + 1) make it clear that both vertical and horizontal movement are essentially the same movement, the same process?

Whether they are essentially the same or essentially different, the quotes, or any quotes that I have come across, do not explain what "vertical" means in this context. I may be wrong.

Huguette . wrote:
Knowledge horizontally or vertically is put together.

Thank you for the new quote, but I still cannot conceive what "vertical knowledge" is! Never mind, we can drop it.

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Sun, 08 Apr 2018 #94
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 520 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Never mind, we can drop it.

I agree, Clive. I also don’t understand why he brought in the term “vertical”, rather than just refer to the movement of thought-time as linear. I remember that somewhere he referred to the fact that in some cultures, writing is vertical, not horizontal, but I can’t find it and I don't understand the significance of it.

I also found 2 others quotes where "vertical" seems to be referring to a non-linear movement. I’ll include them here below and I leave it to you to figure it out if you’re interested.

Other than that, I’m ready to drop it as well :0)

Eighth Talk in The Oak Grove, 2nd July 1944: We must not think and feel horizontally but vertically. That is, instead of following the course of lazy, selfish, ignorant thought-feeling of gradualism, of slow enlightenment through the process of time, of following this stream of continual conflict and misery, of constant mass murder and a period of rest from it - called peace - and an eventual paradise on earth; instead of thinking-feeling along these horizontal lines, can we not think - feel vertically? Is it not possible to pull ourselves out of the horizontal continuance of confusion and strife and to think-feel away from it, anew, without the sense of time, vertically?

===============

Eighth Talk in Saanen, August 7, 1962: Were you not quiet while you were listening? Were you not very attentive, watchful? And when you are attentive, watchful, there is a peculiar quality of silence. The speaker was explaining something, and though he talked for forty minutes - if you will not misunderstand what I mean - he was not using thought. The speaker was moving from fact to fact, and words were used to explain; but if in listening you moved only as it were horizontally, at the verbal level, then you will not have gone vertically and deeply into yourself. So, quietness is a state of attention, a state of real uncovering. You are not quiet if the mind is made quiet, or if you are merely hypnotized by the words and the feeling of the speaker.

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Mon, 09 Apr 2018 #95
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

Other than that, I’m ready to drop it as well :0)

Now I am not! Those are very revealing quotes, Huguette, thanks for finding them. So "vertical" does refer to a "jump", as I felt - at least in this context. And it is a movement "out of time" - a break in continuity

Huguette . wrote:
The speaker was moving from fact to fact, and words were used to explain;

Very interesting to to hear this is "how" K speaks, investigates - moving from fact to fact. So does one revealed fact prepare the ground (so to speak), for the next fact? Lead on naturally to the next fact? Such a progression is nothing to do with the association of ideas that is in my own mind, which merely reflect my local conditioning.

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Mon, 09 Apr 2018 #96
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

We were talking earlier of the state of “inviting” thoughts and feelings. It came there is something else that one needs to continually leave the door open to – that is, the state of emptiness. The possibility that the mental chattering, discussion, may suddenly end, even momentarily. One might call it “the unknown”. It is important not to be afraid of this. And if it happens, it may well be described as “a vertical movement”, out of the plane of thought’s activities.

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Mon, 09 Apr 2018 #97
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 810 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
The possibility that the mental chattering, discussion, may suddenly end, even momentarily. One might call it “the unknown”. It is important not to be afraid of this. And if it happens, it may well be described as “a vertical movement”, out of the plane of thought’s activities.

And if there is "fear", don't run from it. It is to be expected. Fear is what keeps us in the 'stream'.

I want to add this, yes there is a great 'fear' of being 'empty'. And the 'horizontal' is the rush to fill it. This 'awakening of intelligence' that we each in his/her own way is involved in means a possible 'de-stabilizing' of the ordinary mental state. The state where the need for psychological security and satisfaction and survival reigns. So the suggestion of "inviting" thought stretches to ALL thought, both the negative imaginings and the positive. In the 'horizontal' stream (plane) of thought, the negative is quickly replaced by the positive so the negative (the fear, anxiety, worry, conflict etc.) is never really 'looked at' closely, to see and feel its texture, this,that we usually escape from so quickly. I was struck deeply when I first read/heard K. say: "thought is fear".

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 09 Apr 2018.

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Mon, 09 Apr 2018 #98
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

it was an enlightening activity to follow the above dialogue and inquiry, thanks to all the participants !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 09 Apr 2018 #99
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Fear is what keeps us in the 'stream'.

Are there not other factors also, Dan? Factors which could be roughly classified as "habit", or "momentum"? And perhaps other factors also?

Dan McDermott wrote:
I want to add this, yes there is a great 'fear' of being 'empty'. And the 'horizontal' is the rush to fill it.

Yes, well put. Probably a great deal of the activities of the world, and certainly most of the mischief, is contained in this escape from emptiness.

Dan McDermott wrote:
This 'awakening of intelligence' that we each in his/her own way is involved in means a possible 'de-stabilizing' of the ordinary mental state.

It does indeed. And sometimes it is difficult to find any "common ground" with others who are probably completely lost in escape. Even though "I am the world".

Dan McDermott wrote:
So the suggestion of "inviting" thought stretches to ALL thought, both the negative imaginings and the positive

Yes, this is essential. There can be no choosing, no selection in this state of invitation. Which means there is no thinker in charge of the process.

Dan McDermott wrote:
In the 'horizontal' stream (plane) of thought, the negative is quickly replaced by the positive so the negative (the fear, anxiety, worry, conflict etc.) is never really 'looked at' closely, to see and feel its texture, this,that we usually escape from so quickly.

So K invites us to "look without the word" - does this not imply no distinction is made between positive and negative, in this sense of the words?

Dan McDermott wrote:
I was struck deeply when I first read/heard K. say: "thought is fear".

Is this implying that thought is nothing but fear?

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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #100
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 810 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is this implying that thought is nothing but fear?

No only in the psychological. When there is the thinker apart from his thought. Then there is the thought, "what if this were to happen to me"? "What if I am found out to be...?" "What will will happen to me"? " I should have done that differently" etc.

Clive Elwell wrote:
So K invites us to "look without the word" - does this not imply no distinction is made between positive and negative, in this sense of the words?

When there is pleasure there is no call to "look"...but suffering brings us to look at what is going on.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Are there not other factors also, Dan? Factors which could be roughly classified as "habit", or "momentum"? And perhaps other factors also?

That keep us in the 'Stream'? Yes but at bottom, I think, it is this fear of being 'nothing', it is pathetic in a way that we have to be something, isn't it?

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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #101
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
That keep us in the 'Stream'? Yes but at bottom, I think, it is this fear of being 'nothing', it is pathetic in a way that we have to be something, isn't it?

Is it not also a fact that we are something as well as nothing ??

isn't the the problem that we want something else instead of what is ?

PS.: Or is it that we want nothing else ?? (after one hour)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 10 Apr 2018.

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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #102
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 520 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Is it not also a fact that we are something as well as nothing ??

Wim,

But aren’t all the things we name as being "what we are” defined by the stream itself - by “me” and “others”? Isn’t giving authority to those definitions of “what I am” and “what you are” part of what action is within the stream itself?

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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #103
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 810 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
isn't the the problem that we want something else instead of what is ?

PS.: Or is it that we want nothing else ?? (after one hour)

Why do we "want" or "not want" anything in the psychological beside what is there? Isn't that the 'spill-over' from the biological survival side?

I was looking at some photos of my family this morning from years ago and can remember more or less when they were taken, what times were like back there etc. These experiences all happened but it is the 'I' that ties the years together, isn't it? The 'illusory' 'me' that appears to be a constant among all the past moments. And it occurred to me that since this individual 'me' seems so real that even as the body ages, this 'me' or 'I' process does not. It is as if from the 'I's point of view, the aging body is betraying it. Because it knows that it is dependent on the body staying alive and since it 'feels' itself as separate, ageless even, there is a deep fear there,i.e. What will happen to 'me' when the body dies?? So our deepest unshakable fear may be based on this illusion that there is a permanent, continuous 'I'/'Me' separate and apart from the body/brain.

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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #104
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So our deepest unshakable fear may be based on this illusion that there is a permanent, continuous 'I'/'Me' separate and apart from the body/brain.

Yes, and this 'I'/me is thought/image. We are afraid of losing the image/s...images in the brain, based upon memory. Yet they are not there when we're in deep sleep...or deeply engaged with something...like skiing, surfing, music, a good film or book. We seem to become lost in what we're doing and the 'I' is temporarily absent. Or am I mistaken?

Let it Be

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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #105
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 810 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We seem to become lost in what we're doing and the 'I' is temporarily absent. Or am I mistaken?

I see it that way, when my attention is 'absorbed' in what I'm doing, watching, hearing etc., there is no 'I'. When the absorption, 'wears off', the 'I' (thinker/thought) arises again... until the next absorption...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 10 Apr 2018.

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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #106
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
No only in the psychological. When there is the thinker apart from his thought. Then there is the thought, "what if this were to happen to me"? "What if I am found out to be...?" "What will will happen to me"? " I should have done that differently" etc.

Yes, I have been noticing a lot, lately, how thought keeps imagining imaginary situations, thinking of what MIGHT happen - no matter how unlikely - and then trying to figure out how it would respond to these imaginary challenges. Such a pointless exercise, there is no end to what can be imagined!

Dan McDermott wrote:
When there is pleasure there is no call to "look"...but suffering brings us to look at what is going on.

I see what you mean.

Dan McDermott wrote:
That keep us in the 'Stream'? Yes but at bottom, I think, it is this fear of being 'nothing', it is pathetic in a way that we have to be something, isn't it?

Clear that as long as the self is existing, it has to BE something. There is no self without a content, is there? "Content" meaning identification really.

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #107
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Returning to the matter of awareness :

It is clear that there is always an awareness of the environment going on, at some level, even when we appear to be lost in thought, or concentrating on something or other. I had a good example of that yesterday, when I was very nearly involved in a serious car accident – not my fault at all. While driving along a main road in town, a car pulled out of a side street directly in my path. By the time I realised what had happened, I had ALREADY slammed on the brakes and come to a halt, just in time.

So at some level, below the conscious, they had been an awareness of what was happening around me. I am sure we have all experienced something similar. We respond to changes in our surroundings. Only when something changes, moves, appears,disappears, does it come to conscious attention. I suspect this sub-conscious awareness is always there – and it is fortunate that it does! But it is nothing to do with 'me'.

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #108
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 810 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So at some level, below the conscious, they had been an awareness of what was happening around me.

What really stands out in watching the wildlife around me here is their level of alertness. No matter what they are doing, their response to a possible danger is almost instantaneous. (and they don't crash into things when they flee at breakneck speed!) I guess over time the necessity in us for such awareness diminished...but as you describe, it is still there 'under' my daydreaming. As I was walking in the woods one day, dreaming away, all of a sudden my body stopped dead with my foot raised in the air...there beneath my raised foot was a black snake laying in the path that I was about to step on and that 'I' had not even seen.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 12 Apr 2018.

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #109
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I suspect this sub-conscious awareness is always there – and it is fortunate that it does! But it is nothing to do with 'me'.

That awareness is there until 'I' get absorbed in some task which distracts me. Then awareness goes to that. Here in the U.S. we've had many tragic auto accidents because a person is driving their car down a highway and looking at an 'important' text on their iPhone and they wind up smashing into a parked car....or a car moving towards them in the oncoming traffic. So our attention is easily distracted by thought/time('I must read this important text). 'I must read this important text right NOW' ....but I'm driving down the highway right NOW, and BAM, I'm in a tragic accident now! Animals don't have the capacity of such involvement in thought and time. I suspect they stay mostly in the now moment. It may be important to note that our distractions often occur because we're obsessed with thoughts of some future pleasure/fulfillment. We're eagerly anticipating a date for next Saturday night with a woman or man who we are very attracted to. We get a text while driving and we care more about our imagined future pleasures than the traffic on the highway. Animals don't do that at all, as far as I know.

Let it Be

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #110
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 810 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
how thought keeps imagining imaginary situations, thinking of what MIGHT happen - no matter how unlikely - and then trying to figure out how it would respond to these imaginary challenges. Such a pointless exercise,

I agree that it is "pointless" and often it's 'painful'. And these negative imaginings get their energy from the possibility that they could happen 'up ahead' in an unknown future...So 'worry' is a name we've given to this sensation (fear) and the only way it can be 'seen' for what it is not to escape from it. You can see how valuable this imagining the future is, when it comes to the technical realm ,as well as a must for our biological survival, but, when it crosses into the psychological...but that line is blurry. I guess all that we can do is prepare as best we can for whatever may occur and leave it there...rather than being continually eaten up with aimless 'worry' about what may happen.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 12 Apr 2018.

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #111
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
What really stands out in watching the wildlife around me here is their level of alertness.

Yes, animals seems to be pure alertness. Even when asleep, at least in some cases like cats. I guess this is something that natural selection in evolution would have built into them.

Dan McDermott wrote:
As I was walking in the woods one day, dreaming away, all of a sudden my body stopped dead with my foot raised in the air...there beneath my raised foot was a black snake laying in the path that I was about to step on and that 'I' had not even seen.

I have an almost exactly similar story. My daughter, her mother and myself were walking along a path in India, which followed a quiet river through the forest. Suddenly two things happened - my daughter gave a great leap forward, a bound and her mother gave out a huge scream. When we reconstructed (ie with the mind) what had happened, we realised she was about to step on a snake, like you Dan, and the body had instantly leaped right over it. The action was certainly not conscious.

Such action is beautiful, really.

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #112
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Here in the U.S. we've had many tragic auto accidents because a person is driving their car down a highway and looking at an 'important' text on their iPhone and they wind up smashing into a parked car....or a car moving towards them in the oncoming traffic.

I also was distracted, I was concentrating on trying to find a post office. But still,as I said, at the sub-conscious level there was some 'monitoring' attention.

So there defintely appears to be a discrepancy between what you describe, Tom, and my experience. How do we explain that?

Of course it may have turned out that it was simply impossible to avoid an accident if the timing had been slightly different. It may have been impossible to take evasive action, no matter what level of awareness there was.

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #113
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So 'worry' is a name we've given to this sensation (fear)

Somehow I would not even call it 'worry'. It is simply the mind occupying itself with its imaginings. And at the same time trying to make itself 'secure', prepared for all possible challenges. I would not say this occupation is particularly painful.

So I am wondering what comes first, what is the real cause - the need for occupation, or the demand for so-called security?

Dan McDermott wrote:
sensation (fear) and the only way it can be 'seen' for what it is not to escape from it. You can see how valuable this imagining the future is, when it comes to the technical realm ,as well as a must for our biological survival,

Yes

Dan McDermott wrote:
.but that line is blurry.

The line is indeed blurry, between what is reasonable and what is not. So one has to approach this issue carefully, gently. Can we just dismiss the intellect, and tell ourselves 'some other force' will look after us? And if we do, is that still not the intellect?

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #114
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So there defintely appears to be a discrepancy between what you describe, Tom, and my experience. How do we explain that?

If my eyes are on the message on my phone, I'm not aware of the traffic on the road...even on a subconscious level....I suspect. Very dangerous of course. If I was just lost in a daydream, yet my eyes were still on the road, I have a much better chance that awareness will take over when another motorist suddenly pulls out in front of me or there's some other danger. But pleasure and attachment can distract us to the degree that we endanger our lives or the lives of others.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 13 Apr 2018.

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #115
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 810 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
The line is indeed blurry, between what is reasonable and what is not. So one has to approach this issue carefully, gently. Can we just dismiss the intellect, and tell ourselves 'some other force' will look after us?

I'm not understanding what your saying here. The line is blurry between what is survival for the biological and the psychological i.e. I need more money because I can live in a bigger house and have a bigger bank account...is that biological or psychological? I want a bigger car because it will help my business say and as a result I will have more money to take care of my family...is that biological or psychological, that's what I meant by "blurry"...if I strive to be successful at what I do, it will help me pay bills and maintain...is that 'becoming'?

One distinction seems to be that one pursuit is done for the benefit of the body and the other is done to enhance the self, the 'me' and the 'mine'. Blurry.

Probably the most accurate attitude is that everything that I do is 'selfish'.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 13 Apr 2018.

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #116
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
One distinction seems to be that one pursuit is done for the benefit of the body and the other is done to enhance the self, the 'me' and the 'mine'. Blurry.

Probably the most accurate attitude is that everything that I do is 'selfish'.

Perhaps the distinction is that when I act for the benefit of 'me' there's always conflict involved. K emphasized the necessity of total physical security. Can we act to provide the body...our children's bodies, if we have any...with physical security without 'me' being involved? I honestly don't know. I suppose the best we can do is to be aware when there's conflict, ambition, greed, pursuit of psychological security.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 13 Apr 2018.

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #117
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But aren’t all the things we name as being "what we are” defined by the stream itself - by “me” and “others”? Isn’t giving authority to those definitions of “what I am” and “what you are” part of what action is within the stream itself?

Hi Huguette,

I was not able to answer you because of a short-term severe illness.

let us taka this situation as an example.
My body reacted before I named it, so 'I am sick' is in that situation the description of a true fact an actuality.
First i took it not too serious and reasoned it away as something minor, not to worry about.
That interference of 'ME' costs me dearly so we had to call a docter at home.
Accepting the situation it took still four days to see any improvement.
Because of the side effects of the medication I had beautiful hallucinations that I could see through as such in spite of my illness.
So to me no-Thing and something is not only depending on naming and they merge into one another in a smooth movement.

One sentence i recently read in "Truth and actuality" descibe it very clear:

Krishnamurti: He doesn’t separate reality. He says, “I comprehend it, I hold it, I see it”.

P.S.: I'm going to travel and must do al the packaging I had planned
in a shorter time period so you won't hear me for a while.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 13 Apr 2018.

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #118
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I'm not understanding what your saying here

I just meant that because the lines are blurry, we cannot position ourselves entirely on one side of any line. We cannot say with certainty "this is psychological and this is not"

Dan McDermott wrote:
The line is blurry between what is survival for the biological and the psychological i.e. I need more money because I can live in a bigger house and have a bigger bank account...is that biological or psychological? I want a bigger car because it will help my business say and as a result I will have more money to take care of my family...is that biological or psychological, that's what I meant by "blurry"...if I strive to be successful at what I do, it will help me pay bills and maintain...

i understand, Dan.

Dan McDermott wrote:
is that 'becoming'?

If we identify with something, then 'becoming' will be involved.

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #119
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4189 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
. Can we act to provide the body...our children's bodies, if we have any...with physical security without 'me' being involved?

And yet if we emphasise unduly the needs of "our" children, over the needs of all the world's children, then the me is already involved, is it not?

Tom Paine wrote:
. I suppose the best we can do is to be aware when there's conflict, ambition, greed, pursuit of psychological security.

And this is no small thing! This IS the best, the very best, the good.

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