Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

What is experience?


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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #91
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I want to add, that I recall speaking with my grandmother when she was well up in her 80's, and she told me she felt like she had lived a very full...good...life.

Well, I can't in honesty comment on your grandmother. But in general I don't think that most people are very willing to admit that their lives are in confusion, that they do suffer, that they are in conflict.

I can only speak from my own observations (while being open to be shown these are mistaken) and what I see around me is a lot of suffering, a lot of anxiety. People's lifes rarely go as they are planned, as they are hoped. There is always disappointment, frustration - see my mail above in response to Juan. The starting point of all the religious teachers, as far as I know, is that there is great suffering. And it cannot be denied that we are making a tremendous mess of the world, so much violence, increasing ill health. We are rapidly destroying the very planet we live on.

But mostly we refuse to face the fact that the problems we face are fundamentally psychological ones.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #92
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
. would it be acceptable to distinguish between experience and experiencing? For an experiencing without an experience? That way the experiencing is ever new?

Without doing any searching through past posts, I have a memory that I already mentioned this distinction, Vikram.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #93
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Tom, I do see that the conscious mind has no authority or control over the unconscious mind.

This is certainly my observation, Huguette. In fact it has been remarkably evident in recent times. I find I decide to do something (“I” being the conscious mind) and can only watch as the unconscious steps in, interferes, and does quite a different action to the one intended. I am talking about a matter of a split second! And often the action is just the opposite of the intended one.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #94
Thumb_bandak Vikram P India 7 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Without doing any searching through past posts, I have a memory that I already mentioned this distinction, Vikram.

Yes i see it now Clive, you have made that distinction. I had however followed up with higher octaves when i made that distinction by pointing out couple of other things in a question format and they are "For an experiencing without an experience? That way the experiencing is ever new?". The second question posed by me was addressing your question on the "disturbing conclusion" issue in your original post. Nevertheless, this then brings us us to the point of inquiry where i will ask you to walk me though how you made that determination/distinction? (Is there any other inquiry or insight you have pursued or came upon, apart from what you mention in that paragraph to arrive at the determination?)

After you clarify the aforementioned question and in the interest of pursuing the inquiry i will ask you then to walk me through (if you have done it yourself i.e.) to what are the implications of that determination/distinction in daily living of a human? How does that insight translate into daily living? What does it look like, feel like?

This post was last updated by Vikram P Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #95
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I don't think they are worth pursuing as part of a rational enquiry. In any case, I doubt if merely holding on to a belief does overcome sorrow, fear, all the misery that the self creates, although adherents to the faith may claim they do.

Yes, you're right, it does not overcome any sorrow, fear, and all the misery self creates, it is merely a trick of the mind to justify all that and make the self think that it has overcome sorrow by accepting that all this sorrow is "necessary for me to learn something which will make myself accomplish liberation in the next or some of the following lives" ... So I prefer to deceive myself in order to cope with all that misery and sorrow rather than face sorrow and find out its actual cause in the present life.

A quick cofee before going out for my daily round, i'll continue later with the rest of your post.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #96
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
what are the implications of that determination/distinction in daily living of a human? How does that insight translate into daily living? What does it look like, feel like?

Hi Vikram,

You said to Wim (and by extension to me too) that he had jumped way ahead from the initial question put by you with his own question, which may be ... But i was wondering myself if asking someone about the ending result without first inquiring about the possibility or not of what is proposed in the initial question (which was "would it be acceptable to distinguish between experience and experiencing? For an experiencing without an experience?") could be considered also as "jump way ahead" from the initial question ... more when you yourself said in the same post to Wim that "if it was me then i will be investigating on what all is involved in 'experiencing without an experience'"

What do you think?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #97
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
A hope that all this is an illusion

If someone comes and tells me "All what you experience in life is but an illusion" either i will start questioning my own perception of reality (together or alone, this doesn't matter much here) or i will reject such "absurd" idea, but i will never have a hope that what appears as real now will become an illussion later, magically ...

Anyway, what Clive was doing is to simply point out the fact that the one that observes suffering as just "my suffering" is starting in illussion, regardless of whether he or she actually sees such illusion or not.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #98
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I find I decide to do something (“I” being the conscious mind) and can only watch as the unconscious steps in, interferes, and does quite a different action to the one intended. I am talking about a matter of a split second! And often the action is just the opposite of the intended one.

Interesting! ... Let's say that someone has an addiction, say to play computer games, and happens that he decides to go for a walk, but this never happens because he continues playing games, telling himself "still five minutes more", until all of a sudden he realizes that it is late at night and it is time to go bed ... According to what you say, is this due to the unconscious mind? ... If it is so, could you explain why it is so? ... And if it is not could you put an actual example (and its explanation) why it is not so?

BTW, watch the unconscious stepping in, interfing means that the unconscious is no longer unconscious but conscious, which would mean that i do a different action to the one intended consciously.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #99
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Well, I can't in honesty comment on your grandmother. But in general I don't think that most people are very willing to admit that their lives are in confusion, that they do suffer, that they are in conflict.

Of course we can not speak for each and every human being in the world but what you say is easely observable in most of us ... Now, would you say that this happens because the mind tricks itself by superseding suffering with pleasure? ... I mean, that the "weight" of pleasure is greater than that of suffering?

One day, many years ago, a co-worker girl came to the office after her daily round with a rose in her hands, after a while she said "What a pity that now the rose looks so ugly and how beautiful showed when I plucked it from the rosebush!", leaving it on a table and forgeting about it forever ... In another occasion, some years later, again a co-worker girl told me about "How nice is the car i am going to buy, its colour, the wheels, the horse power, etc.", adding further "We (her family) are going to have to tight our belts (i don't know if this is a right expression in english, hope you get its meaning though) but it's worth it because it's sooo cooool!!!"

Now this are but two examples of thousand situations could happen in the world in each one of us ... Both show that the person is in confussion, conlict, and suffering but obviously the "weight" of the pleasurable sensation is greater than the one of suffering so that anyone who dares to question the other side of the coin (i.e. the side of suffering that is included in the same coin as pleasure) will be answered with a "Are you trying to question my happiness?", while refusing to see the part of suffering included in his pleasure.

This is why most of us (of course, not all of us) dare to say at the moment of death, or in our 80's that we feel like we have lived a very full...good...life, trying to lie ourselves and all those around us.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #100
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Maybe in the sense that in order to understand oneself, one must be free of belief, opinions, conclusions?

Can one simply see this statement as a fact? Not that it is something that must be achieved. Not that one must struggle about it. It is just a fact, like the sky is a fact. And perhaps the perception of that fact will act - not that "I have to do something about it" ?

Perhaps....though the unconscious may be full of unexamined beliefs, ideals, 'shoulds', etc. The 'me' is the total content of consciousness....including the unconscious conditioning. Can that be dropped....do we see the necessity of dropping it? I don't know. Very busy day ahead and I will have to return to this later, time permitting. I do feel it needs further examination.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #101
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

A technical note for Tom and others that may be in a similar situation

While writing the long #99 post above in my tablet, Chrome crashed unexpectedly and fully closed ... After that i crossed my fingers, and (01) made a click on the physical icon (not to be mistaken with the app icon in the tablet or mobile phone desktop) that anyone can find at the bottom of any Android tablet or mobile phone (which is used to show all the apps we have opened recently), (02) selected Chrome to open it again and thank god the post was still there so i could continue writing and finish it without any problem.

Appologizes for the off-topic, but i thought it could be of interest to some here.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Sat, 10 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #102
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Why is it a "fact"

Why have you disregard the whole statement, quoting only the half of it, basing after your whole reasoning only on that half?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #103
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Why is 'your' suffering "human suffering" and not just yours?

Putting it simple, because then your mind will not label it as "my suffering" (with all what this label implies in a later inquiring) but simply as "suffering", which is quite different when later one inquires about it (either alone or with someone elses).

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #104
Thumb_bandak Vikram P India 7 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Hi Vikram,

You said to Wim (and by extension to me too) that he had jumped way ahead from the initial question put by you with his own question, which may be ... But i was wondering myself if asking someone about the ending result without first inquiring about the possibility or not of what is proposed in the initial question (which was "would it be acceptable to distinguish between experience and experiencing? For an experiencing without an experience?") could be considered also as "jump way ahead" from the initial question ... more when you yourself said in the same post to Wim that "if it was me then i will be investigating on what all is involved in 'experiencing without an experience'"

What do you think?

Hello Juan,

Excellent question! No it wouldn't be jumping ahead in this case i.e. between Clive and I as both of us have already arrived at the same determination. If you will look a little closer you will see that i wasn't asking about the "end result" but still am exploring the original question. Your determination that i was asking about the end result could be an error of perception which will be cleared up as Clive and i proceed. But to give you a hint:

I am not looking for the end result FROM Clive as i already have done my own investigation and found out somethings and it remains to be seen if he has. To find out if both of us have seen and discussing the same things. That's why i had put "(if you have done it yourself i.e.)" next to the question . Since he and I have already seen the same determination, now we will inquire into the "translation" of that determination which is the proof of the pudding. Why is the proof of the pudding important? It has been my observation that "determinations" on their own are kind of looking for "answers" and once found the questioner or the inquirer stops inquiring and forgets that without a translation into daily living any answer or determination is just a theory. So further inquiry and clarity is needed for that determination to translate into conduct. Otherwise we are still living in these appalling discrepancies between thought, word and conduct as we see people live in. Talking about the most sublime of the things and yet living a life of violence and neurosis. Believing something, talking something but doing something totally contrary etc. Their alleged insights not showing in actual daily living. Something you see everywhere including this forum. And this is the reason why further inquiry is needed which you will see presently. Does this satisfy your question?

This post was last updated by Vikram P Sat, 10 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #105
Thumb_bandak Vikram P India 7 posts in this forum Offline

To Juan,
Furthermore, both you and Win have agreed to my initial determination of the distinction between experiencing and experience. Both of you have made declarative statements. But agreeing is not your own insight (being a light to oneself) and without one's own insight we haven't even began to look at translation into conduct. Thus i pointed it out that let's take it slow and go step by step and see if both of you will see what i have seen and not simply agree since simply agreeing is impotent. Therefore i asked both of you a question " What is the first requirement of investigation and inquiry into these matters? How does one initiate and continue in an inquiry?" but so far haven't had a reply or seen interest to go deeper into the original determination and make it your own.... to a point where it translates into conduct. The importance of which was touched base in prior response.

I have done the same thing with Clive and one of the two questions i had asked Clive was "how did he arrive at the determination"? His answer will reveal the line of his inquiry (which is what all there of us should have pursued and still can) but have't. Is this becoming clearer?

This post was last updated by Vikram P Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #106
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 630 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
But agreeing is not your own insight (being a light to oneself) and without one's own insight we haven't even began to look at translation into conduct.

On what basis you conclude this is only agreeing ?

You seem to me on the path of cause and effect and that's a dead end.

There is no road to insight only obstacles, the simple fact is that experiencing is an active present and experience is a shadow from the past and as such incomplete and subjective. There are no steps to make or to slow down or walking hand by hand, one sees it or not.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #107
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
. Nevertheless, this then brings us us to the point of inquiry where i will ask you to walk me though how you made that determination/distinction?

No, I can't “walk you through” anything, Vikram. I am not even sure what is meant by the phrase.

I have no interest in guiding anyone. Neither do I wish to prove, or reinforce, what I might have said in the past – not just on the forum, but generally in my life. I cannot reproduce the past, anyway. Perhaps what was said was untrue, perhaps it was true. But truth has to be discovered anew each moment, does it not? It cannot be accumulated, it has to be discovered freshly.

And surely truth does not depend on reason or logic. It is not proved by argument, is it? Not that truth must be unreasonable, irrational, of course.


As I remember now, it had come to me that experience always implies recognition. This seemed like a realisation, perhaps an insight, and it came quite strongly. The implication was that experience is always limited, it is always based on what has gone before, it can never be new.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #108
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote in #99:
But do I truly see them as "illusion"? Or is that 'past knowledge' that I bring to my suffering?

Well, those are questions that can always be asked, at any time. i do not see any fixed, once-and-for-all answer. But this is why I feel so interested in "The stream of human consciousness, with its implication that is no individual, no "mine" psychologically at all.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #109
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote #102:
... According to what you say, is this due to the unconscious mind? ...

Well, the example you give is very similar to what I was describing, what I see happening in me. I INFER that what comes up and overrides the conscious intention is from what is generally called the unconscious mind. Perhaps better to call it the SUB conscious mind. It implies that that what comes up is what I (the mind) am REALLY interested in (yes, or obsessed by, addicted to), and what is over-ridden is what I THOUGHT I was interested in.

Juan E wrote:
BTW, watch the unconscious stepping in, interfing means that the unconscious is no longer unconscious but conscious, which would mean that i do a different action to the one intended consciously.

Yes, one can say this is the subconscious surfacing, in order to influence, to act. I suspect that a great deal of our actions are actually prompted by the subconscious. Is it that this is exposed in the light of awareness?

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #110
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote #103:
Of course we can not speak for each and every human being in the world but what you say is easely observable in most of us ... Now, would you say that this happens because the mind tricks itself by superseding suffering with pleasure? ... I mean, that the "weight" of pleasure is greater than that of suffering?

That is not the explanation that occurs to me. I would see it more in terms of conformity, and not wishing to appear inadequate in front of others. Do you know that phrase that is quite common: “He's a looser”? It carries the implication that that speaker is a winner, has made a success of his life, in terms of material wealth and personal happiness. This is the ideal that society puts out, is it not? Just look at all the advertising posters!

So behind this pretence is fear, fear of exposing oneself as being unhappy, fearful, insecure, depressed …..... how many people are willing to be completely honest, with others and also with oneself?

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #111
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote #105:
The 'me' is the total content of consciousness...

This is very interesting, could you say more what you mean by "total content", Tom?

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #112
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote #109:
No it wouldn't be jumping ahead in this case i.e. between Clive and I as both of us have already arrived at the same determination.

What is this determination that I am supposed to have arived at? Please give the reference.

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Sat, 10 Feb 2018 #113
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote #105:

The 'me' is the total content of consciousness...

This is very interesting, could you say more what you mean by "total content", Tom?

What is it that makes up consciousness? It's experience, desire, fear, anger, greed, pleasure, belief, ideals, habits, and so on. That's also what 'me' is made up of, isn't it? Therefore me = consciousness....the total content (conscious and unconscious) as I see it. There's no 'me' separate from consciousness itself, though we often think of ourselves as a separate fragment of consciousness that observes or desires or wants or 'has' fear, anger, belief, ideals, addictions, etc.

Let it Be

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Sat, 10 Feb 2018 #114
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Do you know that phrase that is quite common: “He's a looser”?

Oh yes!, Tom has explained quite well what this means in #81

Clive Elwell wrote:
It carries the implication that that speaker is a winner, has made a success of his life, in terms of material wealth and personal happiness.

No Clive, the only thing it carries is the implication that there are plenty of people out there constantly fighting with themselves not to become "losers", believing that because they have accomplished something others have not (either material or spiritual), they are "winners" (although still not the "winners" they are supposed they should be, so the fight never ends and so also not the misery)

Anyway, it is very easy in fact to make them fall down of their weak and imaginary pedestals ... The only "problem" is that they will become angry at you from the very moment you make them feel that they have been exposed, that what they thought was securely hidden to others' eyes behind a wall of words, smiling faces, and material goods -- which is no other than their own misery -- has been exposed by an unknown ... And who knows, maybe then, if you still insists in pointing out that misery with the sole intention to look at it together -- because after all, it is also your misery -- they will end crucifying you because "Who are you to insinuate that of me?! And you?! what about you?!"

After all, who's willing to acknowledge before another, that one's life is a farce that one tries to constantly hide to the eyes of others trying to appear before them as a winner -- either material or spiritual -- with all the conflict and contradictions that it implies in oneself and therefore in our relationship with the world?.

So, almost all of us play the entertaining game of "seeing", but when that seeing wants to be transformed in an actual action in the 'real' world it is stopped by the self, who says "Oh! This is gonna bring about conflict, so better not say anything. Let us behave politely and not utter any words that surely would be misunderstood bringing about an unwanted conflict!" (which eventually brings about not talking at all -- which is what almost all of us have made at one time or another of our lives [and are still doing], at the same time that we criticize others' saying "nobody is willing to hear anything about the misery life we live" ... But are we ourselves, within that self-imposed "silence", willing to fully listen about the misery life we ourselves live?)

Anyway, if we were to be killed by a terminal cancer tomorrow, there would be no problem in pointing out openly anything we may have seen about misery while exposing ourselves without any fear ...

So, why do we think we are alive, self-censoring ourselves in our trying to protect a supposed life we're supposedly living when we are already dead within that silence thinking that we have seen something that others' are not willing to listen?

That's a mystery! ;-)

Anyway, it seems to me that anyone keeping silent within the stream, having seen something but not being yet step-out of the stream, is doing nothing else than self-censoring itself because fear to be misunderstood and be involved in an unwanted conflict (what, after all, means what?)

If K had thought that, he would not have said a word, and this forum would never have existed, and none of us would have met ... but the world, you and me, would have continued being the same ;-)

Leaving for my sister's home, listen to you when come back.

By the way, yesterday I saw a very interesting movie to see how the mind deceives itself all the time: "5 to 7"

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Sat, 10 Feb 2018.

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Sat, 10 Feb 2018 #115
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What is it that makes up consciousness? It's experience, desire, fear, anger, greed, pleasure, belief, ideals, habits, and so on. That's also what 'me' is made up of, isn't it? Therefore me = consciousness....the total content (conscious and unconscious) as I see it. There's no 'me' separate from consciousness itself, though we often think of ourselves as a separate fragment of consciousness that observes or desires or wants or 'has' fear, anger, belief, ideals, addictions, etc.

Ok, I see what you mean, I think.

Is there an implication that there could be another sort of consciousness, free of the self? I was pondering this morning K's words: Consciousness is its content, the content makes up consciousness. The two are indivisible. Generally we tend to think of consciousness as some sort of container, containing various things, that may come and go, while conscousness remains, apart. But K seems to be saying that there is no container.

I am carrying on with this issue on the "Stepping out of the stream" thread, where it seems relevant.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Sat, 10 Feb 2018.

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