Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is experience?


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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #61
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
It doesn’t sound like your grandmother was obsessed with pursuing pleasure or that she was trying to escape pain.

Not sure, Huguette. I know she had a mostly an unfulfilling marriage with much conflict and bickering with my grandfather. My mother told me that as a child she heard almost constant arguments in the home. But my grand dad lived for his work, and made a very comfortable living, so my grandmother was free during the day to indulge her desires and whims. I think she lived a very superficial life....possibly as an escape from being bored and lonely. She had few close friends and was something of a compulsive talker which drove some of her family away. But she was obsessed with superficial appearances....clothes....manners....being a financial success...the lives of celebrities....the rich and famous movie stars who lived not too many miles away from her out in L.A. This obsession with the superficial may have been an escape from deep inner conflict and boredom....loneliness. She never talked of anything 'deeply' meaningful to her...mostly superficial babbling, so I never knew what lied beneath the surface with her.

There’s nothing wrong with pleasures such as these, is there? There’s no obligation or reason to deny oneself pleasure, or condemn oneself for enjoying pleasure.

Not that I can see. It's the attachment to a particular pleasure or experience that causes pain...pain, when the pleasure which we seek ....are attached/addicted to...is denied. Then we're faced with our loneliness or boredom or anxiety.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 08 Feb 2018.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #62
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
We're looking into what keeps the self going. Is it contradiction, this division and battle between conscious and unconscious? Consciously I think that I’m quite capable and wonderful but unconsciously I think that I’m incompetent and weak (as an example).

Not sure. I need to look more closely at your point. I'll give one example of the way that I see that conflict is created. If I'm told as a child that it's supremely important to be a success...be the best at what I do(business or accounting or academics, sports, for example) and/or be financially successful, then inner conflict is inevitable if I fail. If my business fails, if I'm cut from the college football team....if I'm not recognized as a success as a scholar or an artist....if others get the fame or recognition I desire and I'm a 'failure' in my own eyes and/or society's eyes. If my father was a great college athlete and I fail to even make the varsity team, he may consider me a to be a great disappointment. Sounds cruel, but this kind of thing DOES happen. And I will be disappointed in myself as a consequence. This keeps the self going, as I see it, because I dont want to face the disapproval of my father...the society...the pain of failure. The other side of the coin is that there's great pleasure if I DO succeed and win society's approval. Attachment (to a goal or experience) seems to be one cause of conflict/suffering, as the Buddha famously said.

If the mind sees the falseness of all belief, opinion, etc. - conscious and unconscious - and it sees that effort cannot overcome the contradictions, divisions, fear, and so on, that perception is very significant, isn’t it? So there’s nothing to "do" but observe, learn - and not make this into a new conclusion or belief

Makes good sense to me!

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 08 Feb 2018.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #63
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 624 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette wrote:
It doesn’t sound like your grandmother was obsessed with pursuing pleasure or that she was trying to escape pain.

Tom Paine wrote:
Not sure, Huguette.

Your grandmother might have been or not, Tom. It doesn’t really make a difference in terms of understanding self and the human being which is each one of us, does it? We see that the human being - I, you, she, he - pursues pleasure and tries to escape from pain and all that is involved in that effort. In understanding myself, I understand the other. No?

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #64
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Your grandmother might have been or not, Tom. It doesn’t really make a difference in terms of understanding self and the human being which is each one of us, does it?

My point in going into some detail on this subject was that beneath what seems to many of us to be a 'normal' upper middle class existence with nice clothes, furniture, appearance, good food and drink, etc....superficial happiness...may be deep unconscious conflict.

Let it Be

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #65
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 624 posts in this forum Offline

Of course, Tom. It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society - i.e. "normal" - is it?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 08 Feb 2018.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #66
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 39 posts in this forum Online

Wim Opdam wrote:
This is a very good distinction to make, does this prevent a remembering of this action ? Recently someone stated that if one remember such an event it did not took place as such !

Hello Wim, your question is a good one but has jumped way ahead if i may say so, if it was me then i will be investigating on what all is involved in "experiencing without an experience". The same goes for Juan E.

This post was last updated by Vikram P Thu, 08 Feb 2018.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #67
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 743 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
Hello Wim, your question is a good one but has jumped way ahead if i may say so, if it was me then i will be investigating on what all is involved in "experiencing without an experience".

But that's precisely the problem with experience, one only can go back and not jump way ahead. Experiencing is in the present and afterwards there is a shadow of something special has happened, it overcomes you and there was nothing you did that coursed it or could prevent it. The experience nestled as a memory in your brain and there is nothing one can do to repeat er prevent it for recurring.

you as a person are not involved, but are the executive action.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 08 Feb 2018.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #68
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 39 posts in this forum Online

What is the first requirement of investigation and inquiry into these matters? How does one initiate and continue in an inquiry?

This post was last updated by Vikram P Thu, 08 Feb 2018.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #69
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Maybe in the sense that in order to understand oneself, one must be free of belief, opinions, conclusions?

Can one simply see this statement as a fact? Not that it is something that must be achieved. Not that one must struggle about it. It is just a fact, like the sky is a fact. And perhaps the perception of that fact will act - not that "I have to do something about it" ?

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Thu, 08 Feb 2018.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #70
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
"But I never give up trying!" I found it interesting to read your #69 above using "I" instead of "it"or "self". For me it brings those important questions 'closer to home'.

"Why don't I ever learn, Why don't I ever just give up?"

I understand what you are saying, Dan. But there is another way for us blind men to feel the elephant.

By emphasising the “I”, is this not another way of reinforcing the idea that it is “my” suffering, “my conflict”, “my” fear etc? Whereas this is actually a false way of looking – it is human suffering, human conflict and fear …… To approach these things as if they are “mine” is to start in illusion. Any action would then be based on a misconception.

What do you say?

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #71
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
But it doesn't matter, because if I believe in a next life, I will say to myself "Fortunately there's another life after this one

First of all let us put aside belief in reincarnation, and any other religious belief. I don't think they are worth pursuing as part of a rational enquiry. In any case, I doubt if merely holding on to a belief does overcome sorrow, fear, all the misery that the self creates, although adherents to the faith may claim they do.

Why? ... Easy to answer this, simply because I have a firm believing that eventually I will get what I want, i.e.: a lasting happiness free from suffering ..

But this begs the question, Juan. The question is still there; why in the face of all the evidence to the contrary do people carry on believing that they will eventually get what they want? After a hundred frustrations, why should one “carry on”? And even when one does “get what one wants”, as for example get the job one has been striving for, marry the person one has desired for years, made a lot of money – does not the satisfaction one envisaged from these “successes” quickly evaporate, turn to ashes in one's mouth? Is this not a fact? So why do not people realise their pursuits are fruitless, and let go of them? Or at least let go of the idea of fulfilment in things?

As K said, there's no such thing as fulfilment. Why do we carry on as if there was?

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #72
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I want to add, that I recall speaking with my grandmother when she was well up in her 80's, and she told me she felt like she had lived a very full...good...life.

Well, I can't in honesty comment on your grandmother. But in general I don't think that most people are very willing to admit that their lives are in confusion, that they do suffer, that they are in conflict.

I can only speak from my own observations (while being open to be shown these are mistaken) and what I see around me is a lot of suffering, a lot of anxiety. People's lifes rarely go as they are planned, as they are hoped. There is always disappointment, frustration - see my mail above in response to Juan. The starting point of all the religious teachers, as far as I know, is that there is great suffering. And it cannot be denied that we are making a tremendous mess of the world, so much violence, increasing ill health. We are rapidly destroying the very planet we live on.

But mostly we refuse to face the fact that the problems we face are fundamentally psychological ones.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #73
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
. would it be acceptable to distinguish between experience and experiencing? For an experiencing without an experience? That way the experiencing is ever new?

Without doing any searching through past posts, I have a memory that I already mentioned this distinction, Vikram.

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Thu, 08 Feb 2018 #74
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Tom, I do see that the conscious mind has no authority or control over the unconscious mind.

This is certainly my observation, Huguette. In fact it has been remarkably evident in recent times. I find I decide to do something (“I” being the conscious mind) and can only watch as the unconscious steps in, interferes, and does quite a different action to the one intended. I am talking about a matter of a split second! And often the action is just the opposite of the intended one.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #75
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 39 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
Without doing any searching through past posts, I have a memory that I already mentioned this distinction, Vikram.

Yes i see it now Clive, you have made that distinction. I had however followed up with higher octaves when i made that distinction by pointing out couple of other things in a question format and they are "For an experiencing without an experience? That way the experiencing is ever new?". The second question posed by me was addressing your question on the "disturbing conclusion" issue in your original post. Nevertheless, this then brings us us to the point of inquiry where i will ask you to walk me though how you made that determination/distinction? (Is there any other inquiry or insight you have pursued or came upon, apart from what you mention in that paragraph to arrive at the determination?)

After you clarify the aforementioned question and in the interest of pursuing the inquiry i will ask you then to walk me through (if you have done it yourself i.e.) to what are the implications of that determination/distinction in daily living of a human? How does that insight translate into daily living? What does it look like, feel like?

This post was last updated by Vikram P Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #76
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Maybe in the sense that in order to understand oneself, one must be free of belief, opinions, conclusions?

Can one simply see this statement as a fact? Not that it is something that must be achieved. Not that one must struggle about it. It is just a fact, like the sky is a fact. And perhaps the perception of that fact will act - not that "I have to do something about it" ?

Perhaps....though the unconscious may be full of unexamined beliefs, ideals, 'shoulds', etc. The 'me' is the total content of consciousness....including the unconscious conditioning. Can that be dropped....do we see the necessity of dropping it? I don't know. Very busy day ahead and I will have to return to this later, time permitting. I do feel it needs further examination.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #77
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 39 posts in this forum Online

Juan E wrote:
Hi Vikram,

You said to Wim (and by extension to me too) that he had jumped way ahead from the initial question put by you with his own question, which may be ... But i was wondering myself if asking someone about the ending result without first inquiring about the possibility or not of what is proposed in the initial question (which was "would it be acceptable to distinguish between experience and experiencing? For an experiencing without an experience?") could be considered also as "jump way ahead" from the initial question ... more when you yourself said in the same post to Wim that "if it was me then i will be investigating on what all is involved in 'experiencing without an experience'"

What do you think?

Hello Juan,

Excellent question! No it wouldn't be jumping ahead in this case i.e. between Clive and I as both of us have already arrived at the same determination. If you will look a little closer you will see that i wasn't asking about the "end result" but still am exploring the original question. Your determination that i was asking about the end result could be an error of perception which will be cleared up as Clive and i proceed. But to give you a hint:

I am not looking for the end result FROM Clive as i already have done my own investigation and found out somethings and it remains to be seen if he has. To find out if both of us have seen and discussing the same things. That's why i had put "(if you have done it yourself i.e.)" next to the question . Since he and I have already seen the same determination, now we will inquire into the "translation" of that determination which is the proof of the pudding. Why is the proof of the pudding important? It has been my observation that "determinations" on their own are kind of looking for "answers" and once found the questioner or the inquirer stops inquiring and forgets that without a translation into daily living any answer or determination is just a theory. So further inquiry and clarity is needed for that determination to translate into conduct. Otherwise we are still living in these appalling discrepancies between thought, word and conduct as we see people live in. Talking about the most sublime of the things and yet living a life of violence and neurosis. Believing something, talking something but doing something totally contrary etc. Their alleged insights not showing in actual daily living. Something you see everywhere including this forum. And this is the reason why further inquiry is needed which you will see presently. Does this satisfy your question?

This post was last updated by Vikram P Sat, 10 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #78
Thumb_an_immovable_mountain Vikram P India 39 posts in this forum Online

To Juan,
Furthermore, both you and Win have agreed to my initial determination of the distinction between experiencing and experience. Both of you have made declarative statements. But agreeing is not your own insight (being a light to oneself) and without one's own insight we haven't even began to look at translation into conduct. Thus i pointed it out that let's take it slow and go step by step and see if both of you will see what i have seen and not simply agree since simply agreeing is impotent. Therefore i asked both of you a question " What is the first requirement of investigation and inquiry into these matters? How does one initiate and continue in an inquiry?" but so far haven't had a reply or seen interest to go deeper into the original determination and make it your own.... to a point where it translates into conduct. The importance of which was touched base in prior response.

I have done the same thing with Clive and one of the two questions i had asked Clive was "how did he arrive at the determination"? His answer will reveal the line of his inquiry (which is what all there of us should have pursued and still can) but have't. Is this becoming clearer?

This post was last updated by Vikram P Fri, 09 Feb 2018.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #79
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 743 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
But agreeing is not your own insight (being a light to oneself) and without one's own insight we haven't even began to look at translation into conduct.

On what basis you conclude this is only agreeing ?

You seem to me on the path of cause and effect and that's a dead end.

There is no road to insight only obstacles, the simple fact is that experiencing is an active present and experience is a shadow from the past and as such incomplete and subjective. There are no steps to make or to slow down or walking hand by hand, one sees it or not.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #80
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote:
. Nevertheless, this then brings us us to the point of inquiry where i will ask you to walk me though how you made that determination/distinction?

No, I can't “walk you through” anything, Vikram. I am not even sure what is meant by the phrase.

I have no interest in guiding anyone. Neither do I wish to prove, or reinforce, what I might have said in the past – not just on the forum, but generally in my life. I cannot reproduce the past, anyway. Perhaps what was said was untrue, perhaps it was true. But truth has to be discovered anew each moment, does it not? It cannot be accumulated, it has to be discovered freshly.

And surely truth does not depend on reason or logic. It is not proved by argument, is it? Not that truth must be unreasonable, irrational, of course.


As I remember now, it had come to me that experience always implies recognition. This seemed like a realisation, perhaps an insight, and it came quite strongly. The implication was that experience is always limited, it is always based on what has gone before, it can never be new.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #81
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote in #99:
But do I truly see them as "illusion"? Or is that 'past knowledge' that I bring to my suffering?

Well, those are questions that can always be asked, at any time. i do not see any fixed, once-and-for-all answer. But this is why I feel so interested in "The stream of human consciousness, with its implication that is no individual, no "mine" psychologically at all.

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #82
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote #102:
... According to what you say, is this due to the unconscious mind? ...

Well, the example you give is very similar to what I was describing, what I see happening in me. I INFER that what comes up and overrides the conscious intention is from what is generally called the unconscious mind. Perhaps better to call it the SUB conscious mind. It implies that that what comes up is what I (the mind) am REALLY interested in (yes, or obsessed by, addicted to), and what is over-ridden is what I THOUGHT I was interested in.

Juan E wrote:
BTW, watch the unconscious stepping in, interfing means that the unconscious is no longer unconscious but conscious, which would mean that i do a different action to the one intended consciously.

Yes, one can say this is the subconscious surfacing, in order to influence, to act. I suspect that a great deal of our actions are actually prompted by the subconscious. Is it that this is exposed in the light of awareness?

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #83
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote #103:
Of course we can not speak for each and every human being in the world but what you say is easely observable in most of us ... Now, would you say that this happens because the mind tricks itself by superseding suffering with pleasure? ... I mean, that the "weight" of pleasure is greater than that of suffering?

That is not the explanation that occurs to me. I would see it more in terms of conformity, and not wishing to appear inadequate in front of others. Do you know that phrase that is quite common: “He's a looser”? It carries the implication that that speaker is a winner, has made a success of his life, in terms of material wealth and personal happiness. This is the ideal that society puts out, is it not? Just look at all the advertising posters!

So behind this pretence is fear, fear of exposing oneself as being unhappy, fearful, insecure, depressed …..... how many people are willing to be completely honest, with others and also with oneself?

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #84
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote #105:
The 'me' is the total content of consciousness...

This is very interesting, could you say more what you mean by "total content", Tom?

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Fri, 09 Feb 2018 #85
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Vikram P wrote #109:
No it wouldn't be jumping ahead in this case i.e. between Clive and I as both of us have already arrived at the same determination.

What is this determination that I am supposed to have arived at? Please give the reference.

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Sat, 10 Feb 2018 #86
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2263 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote #105:

The 'me' is the total content of consciousness...

This is very interesting, could you say more what you mean by "total content", Tom?

What is it that makes up consciousness? It's experience, desire, fear, anger, greed, pleasure, belief, ideals, habits, and so on. That's also what 'me' is made up of, isn't it? Therefore me = consciousness....the total content (conscious and unconscious) as I see it. There's no 'me' separate from consciousness itself, though we often think of ourselves as a separate fragment of consciousness that observes or desires or wants or 'has' fear, anger, belief, ideals, addictions, etc.

Let it Be

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Sat, 10 Feb 2018 #87
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4469 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What is it that makes up consciousness? It's experience, desire, fear, anger, greed, pleasure, belief, ideals, habits, and so on. That's also what 'me' is made up of, isn't it? Therefore me = consciousness....the total content (conscious and unconscious) as I see it. There's no 'me' separate from consciousness itself, though we often think of ourselves as a separate fragment of consciousness that observes or desires or wants or 'has' fear, anger, belief, ideals, addictions, etc.

Ok, I see what you mean, I think.

Is there an implication that there could be another sort of consciousness, free of the self? I was pondering this morning K's words: Consciousness is its content, the content makes up consciousness. The two are indivisible. Generally we tend to think of consciousness as some sort of container, containing various things, that may come and go, while conscousness remains, apart. But K seems to be saying that there is no container.

I am carrying on with this issue on the "Stepping out of the stream" thread, where it seems relevant.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Sat, 10 Feb 2018.

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