Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Mon, 29 Jan 2018 #31
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Mina: Exactly. For all long as identification, or any other subject, is discussed in terms of the mind instead of understanding the mind itself, there is the 'talking about things' in the mind, always from the distance of the observer talking about, and looking, at the observed.

Yes, it struck me yesterday that society (which is us of course) is always concerned with the EFFECTS of thought, and hardly ever on thought itself, the cause of all the effects. Solutions are looked for within the field of thought, and so the chaos continues.

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Mon, 29 Jan 2018 #32
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is there a way back?

There is no way back to any psychological state, Tom, as such would be the pursuit of projections of the mind. But there is the dropping, the letting go of the things of the mind.

And I am talking of from moment to moment, not concerned with time, with "will things return".

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Mon, 29 Jan 2018 #33
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is there a way back?

Look up and see the QOTD excerpt !

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Mon, 29 Jan 2018 #34
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is there a way back? ... Just posing the question...not expecting to be told something to practice in order to regain that innocence and freedom of the little child.

As it seems that you don't expect any answer to your question, i guess that you have put it just aloud but for yourself ... Have you given yourself an answer to it already?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Mon, 29 Jan 2018 #35
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
As it seems that you don't expect any answer to your question, i guess that you have put it just aloud but for yourself ... Have you given yourself an answer to it already?

Any answer someone might give would just be another path to follow, right? Something other than 'what is'. 'Way', meaning 'path' or method.

Let it Be

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #36
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Is there a way back?

There is no way back to any psychological state, Tom,

Is innocence a 'psychological' state? Mina and Juan were talking about passion and curiousity of the small child. I was only pointing out the simple fact that we are no longer that innocent child...an obvious fact. And we can only understand ourselves as we are....not return to what we once were. Will look at the QOTD later. Have to finish dinner.

Let it Be

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #37
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Any answer someone might give would just be another path to follow, right?

Not necessarily ... In any case, what would it do the 'answer' for someone who has such fixed ideas about himself and others? ... Inquiry has nothing to do with convince someone of anything.

Tom Paine wrote:



  • We have grown up to be adults filled with fear, anger, conflict, addictions, loneliness, beliefs, ideals, atrachments, depression, and so on. All that is preventing the innocence of the small child.

  • Any answer someone might give would just be another path to follow, right? Something other than 'what is'.


Good morning all, going to work.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #38
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 214 posts in this forum Offline

Tom: I was only pointing out the simple fact that we are no longer that innocent child...an obvious fact. And we can only understand ourselves as we are....not return to what we once were.

Mina: No, we can only understand ourselves as we are IN THE TIMELESS UNKNOWN INNOCENCE which is always only NOW. That is what we ARE, all else are mere images of ourselves, the thinking about ourselves.

For as long as we keep thinking about ourselves, (or about anything else) that long thought is creating a cover that prevents the direct seeing/being of what we already, timelessly, are.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #39
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Is there a way back?

There is no way back to any psychological state, Tom, as such would be the pursuit of projections of the mind.

I think yours was the best response to the question I posed, Clive....really a rhetorical one. We can't go back...or forward..since the only reality is what is now. Anything else is a projection of thought as you said.

Let it Be

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #40
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
For as long as we keep thinking about ourselves, (or about anything else) that long thought is creating a cover that prevents the direct seeing/being of what we already, timelessly, are.

Are you saying that we are not angry or confused...ambitious or greedy? That would be denying the obvious fact of our anger or fear, when in actuality we may be full of emotional conflict of some sort...and attachment, addiction, craving.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #41
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Mina: No, we can only understand ourselves as we are IN THE TIMELESS UNKNOWN INNOCENCE which is always only NOW. That is what we ARE, all else are mere images of ourselves, the thinking about ourselves.

But I may be thinking of making a lot of money....of being the greatest golfer or skier. That ambition or greed is actually the truth....not the innocence or childlike curiosity and passion that was spoken of.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #42
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
In any case, what would it do the 'answer' for someone who has such fixed ideas about himself and others? ..

Juan E wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

We have grown up to be adults filled with fear, anger, conflict, addictions, loneliness, beliefs, ideals, atrachments, depression, and so on. All that is preventing the innocence of the small child

We (most of us) are not, at one time or another, all that I mentioned above? Is it a fixed idea to say I am angry or violent or confused when in fact I am? Or am I simply stating a fact? Of course I'm not saying that the label is the thing/feeling. But the feeling of loneliness may be present right now, right? To say I'm lonely is then simply stating a fact. The same goes for fear. Here's K on fear:

Krishnamurti: First of all, you must know what fear is. If you know your wife, husband, parent, society, you are no longer afraid of them. To know about something completely makes the mind free from fear.

How will you find out about fear? Are you afraid of public opinion, public opinion being what your friends think of you? Most of us, especially while we are young, want to look alike, dress alike, talk alike. We do not want to be even slightly different, because to be different implies not to conform, not to accept the pattern. When you begin to question the pattern there is fear. Now examine that fear, go into it. Do not say, ``I am afraid' ', and run away from it. Look at it, face it, find out why you are afraid.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #43
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 780 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
For as long as we keep thinking about ourselves, (or about anything else) that long thought is creating a cover that prevents the direct seeing/being of what we already, timelessly, are.

The confusion that I'm seeing here is trying to bring two things together that are not compatible: The 'self' and 'Innocence'. The self can never 'become' Innocence, as it can never become Intelligence, or Love or Compassion etc. It is the ending of psychological thought that is Intelligence. The 'self is the brain's false security blanket and as long as it is present, as K. has said, the "Other" (Innocence,Love, Compassion, Intelligence) cannot be. What I see is that the only way that thought can cease its 'craving' is for it to understand that what it wants and what it is searching for (as well as re-membering) is only a projection of the past, and can only be a projection of the past. The 'self'/thought/time is the 'known' and it can never 'know' or touch the 'unknown'.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #44
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But the feeling of loneliness may be present right now, right?

Right

Tom Paine wrote:
To say I'm lonely is then simply stating a fact.

No Tom, you're simply stating how you feel right now, not a fact ...

By definition a fact is "a piece of information presented as having objective reality", but it happens that "feeling alone" is a subjective reality (based on the images, projections, and so on, of the subject), therefore it can not be considered as a fact ...

BTW, those facts that are not facts are the cause of most (if not all) conflicts in relationship (wife facts against husband facts, politician X's facts against politician Y's facts, co-worker X's facts against co-worker Y's facts, friend X's facts against friend Y's facts, and so on, so forth ... not seeing that what is there is not a fact, but an attachment to own conditioned view.

So, a fact is something different, something that do not depend on my feeling or your feeling, on my view or your view or the view of another, it does not depend on anything because it is what is ... And "feeling alone" is not what is, but merely a conditioned feeling which is thought/felt as an actual fact when it is not ...

As Mina says in #38: "For as long as we keep thinking about ourselves, (or about anything else) that long thought is creating a cover that prevents the direct seeing" of what is ... meanwhile we just imagine facts that are just that, imaginations.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #45
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The confusion that I'm seeing here

The only confusion i see is to think that somebody here has said that the 'self' can become innocence.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #46
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

To say I'm lonely is then simply stating a fact.

No Tom, you're simply stating how you feel right now, not a fact ...

By definition a fact is "a piece of information presented as having objective reality", but it happens that "feeling alone" is a subjective reality (based on the images, projections, and so on, of the subject), therefore it can not be considered as a fact ...

Violence is not a fact? Anger? There are objective physiological changes in hormones, brain waves, pulse, heart rste, blood pressure when I'm angry. I may strike out in anger at my 'enemy', which is violence...a fact. My beliefs and ideals may not be objective facts, but there is the fact that I hold beliefs and ideals. As I see it.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #47
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
As I see it.

As i see it, the facts you're talking about are closed doors that prevent us from seeing actual facts.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #48
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

An hour later ...

Tom Paine wrote:
but there is the fact that I hold beliefs and ideals.

The fact you're talking about is merely based on an intellectual/logical understanding of the actual fact, therefore it is not actually seen, but imagined that it is seen ... If the fact that your words point to were actually seen, such a fact would be actually nonexistent making the talk of it (like you do here) a complete oxymoron ... Do you see why those imagined facts are closed doors that prevent us to see the actual fact, and why we are not able to step-out of the stream of 'vulgarity' (as K called it) because that?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #49
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 465 posts in this forum Offline

Juan,

Can we keep it very simple, not jump all over the place? We’re not talking about “facts” in the context of a court case, a police investigation, a journalistic or scientific investigation, and so on.

We’re talking about understanding life - the facts of life - as we live it, aren't we? If not, what are we really talking about?
In order to understand life - the misery, the beauty, the love, the suffering, the pain, the fear, the pretense, the deceit - I must understand myself as I am in the moment, don’t I? The mind must understand itself, its functioning, its movements, its relationships. Which means observing “what is” inwardly and outwardly, and the relationship between the inner and the outer, no? These are the facts we’re talking about, aren’t they? What am I observing if not the inner (and outer) facts as they unfold?

I can say to you that, in my opinion, you have no reason to feel sad or happy but I can’t claim that what you’re feeling is not a fact. If someone is feeling pain or love, isn’t that a fact for him (or her)? There is no objective measure of what someone else is feeling, but I can certainly say that what I feel is a fact. Not for you, for me. No?

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #50
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
We’re talking about understanding life - the facts of life - as we live it, aren't we? If not, what are we really talking about?

As we live it, yes. Am 'I' not afraid or worried at times? Doesn't anger arise when my desires are thwarted? We are feeling something, no?...when we get angry. That feeling itself is surely a fact. That's all I've been trying to say in reply to Juan. If I crave a cigarette, that attachment and the physical feeling are indeed facts. Didn't the Nazis have their warped belief that the Germans would be the master race? Wasn't the violence they perpetrated a fact? Their beliefs were a fact too...a perversion of the truth, yes, but the insane beliefs were indeed a fact. The fact of believing...no?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #51
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

but there is the fact that I hold beliefs and ideals.

The fact you're talking about is merely based on an intellectual/logical understanding of the actual fact, therefore it is not actually seen, but imagined that it is seen

Are there not thousands ...or millions...of people praying to their imagined God in Heaven? Am I imagining that millions go to church every Sunday because of belief?

Let it Be

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #52
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is innocence a 'psychological' state?

Hmmm, perhaps not Tom. Perhaps it is the absence of psychological states.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #53
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
We’re talking about understanding life

It would be interesting to know what makes you think that i'm not doing the same!

Huguette . wrote:
- the facts of life -

"The facts of life", as you call it, are not those imagined facts in which most of us base our understanding of life, and of ourselves and others ... When we actually see those imagined facts, there are no facts there, i.e.: no more facts like "there is the fact that I hold beliefs and ideals" or whatever to which we attach ourselves so firmly ... All organized religions are based in the thought that those imagined facts are the actual facts ... It is our inability to see that our intellectual/logical understanding of any fact of life is not the actual fact what perpetuates the stream through sacred books, methods, paths to follow, and so on ... When someone comes and tell us "There's suffering, and the cause of suffering is so and so" and we say "Oh yes, that is so!", we have not seen nothing else than a created image of the actual fact by our conditioned minds, but we think that we have seen the actual fact! ... This is the root of all our conflicts in the world: 'facts' against 'facts', nothing else ... "The word is not the thing", they say, but unnoticed we convert once and once again all their words in facts, telling others "How is it that you don't see this or that fact?" ... While ourselves -- Oh, wonder of wonders! -- thinking firmly that we have seen the actual fact, crave at the same time for a real change in ourselves and in the world that seems that never comes ... HA!

This is all ... Easy to understand, hu?!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #54
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are there not thousands ...or millions...of people praying to their imagined God in Heaven? Am I imagining that millions go to church every Sunday because of belief?

Yes, the same that you imagine that you have no belief, and therefore don't go to church every Sunday ... Any attachment to either side of such believe is a cause of conflict ... Why do we attach to those imagined facts as if we had seen the actual facts? ... What facts are there in one who does not divide itself from anything?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #55
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4023 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
but the insane beliefs were indeed a fact. The fact of believing...no?

It is a fact that people hold beliefs, but the content of those beliefs are not facts (although the people who hold them think they are)

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #56
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
The facts of life", as you call it, are not those imagined facts in which most of us base our understanding of life, and of ourselves and others ... When we actually see those imagined facts, there are no facts there,

(scratching my head here) There is no alcoholism or depression?? If you say "no....those are not facts", then it seems we're speaking a different language. Or we have a different understanding of what the word fact means, perhaps.

Let it Be

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #57
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2109 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
It is a fact that people hold beliefs, but the content of those beliefs are not facts (although the people who hold them think they are)

Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

Let it Be

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #58
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I can certainly say that what I feel is a fact. Not for you, for me. No?

Of course, but what you feel/experience subjectively at any moment isn't, by definition, a fact ... It is just what you feel/experience nothing else ... What you refer as "a fact for you" is nothing else than the attachment of the conditioned 'self' to what it feels/experience at any moment as an actual fact when it is not, as it is based on conditioning.

Said this, will not be me who will negate that this is how most of us see what we experience/feel at any moment, i.e.: as an actual fact ... Something BTW, that will be an inevitable source of conflict and suffering not only for oneself but most probably for all those around us too.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #59
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
(scratching my head here)

:-)

Tom Paine wrote:
There is no alcoholism or depression?

No, alcoholism or depression comes to life as soon as you see there, in front of you, something that appears to you as an actual alcoholic or depressed person ... Through that vision, which you consider as being an actual fact, you divide yourself from the person in front of you, and all kind of imaginations based on your own imagined and conditioned facts arise in your mind, and through that you begin to relate to that person, giving him or her all kind of advice or turning your back to him an leaving, again with all kind of imaginations based on your conditioned and imagined facts ... Difficult to see it (even intellectually), but when there's no actual division between you and the other there's no alcoholic or depressed person in front of you ... Despite that, any action there is right action, not based in any facts (or understanding) at all.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 30 Jan 2018.

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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 #60
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 539 posts in this forum Offline

I'm going to bed ...
As my late brother used to say "Mañana más" ("More tomorrow!")
Good night all!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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