Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

What does it mean to deny and yet live with what is?


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Tue, 19 Dec 2017 #31
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Returning to my original post in this thread, which was concerned with K's words on the continual “wiping away” or negation of …..... of what? Of time really, of thought which is always of the past or the future. Of late it has been more meaningful for me to see this movement in terms of negation of the images that thought creates.

The images constitute fear, pleasure, and desire, don't they? These things only exist as images – we suddenly imagine some scene, some situation, some (imagined) experience, happening, and the image is associated with a sense of “me”. It will happen to “me”. And contained in the image is a sense it will be pleasant or unpleasant. We call the unpleasant-feeling image “fear”, and want to avoid it, and the pleasant-feeling image we want to move towards.

But how can one move towards an image? This is the whole problem with desire, isn't it? Because the image is not actual, and part of mind recognises that, we still need to “realise”, the image, make it come real, make it actual. And is this actually possible?

So many words, so much explanation, to describe an almost instantaneous movement in the mind! But the point is, can these images be negated as they arise, as K describes, so that they do not take hold, they do not dictate our actions, do not dominate our life? It seems to me this IS possible, but it implies that state of awareness that is so central to K's teachings.

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Tue, 19 Dec 2017 #32
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 958 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But the point is, can these images be negated as they arise, as K describes, so that they do not take hold, they do not dictate our actions, do not dominate our life?

Isn't it that as long as there is the 'desire' to 'negate' certain images and not the totality, there will be choice? The 'self' arises, doesn't it, when there is this psychological conflict between the 'fragments'? The self can't 'know' the "vastness" that lies outside its boundaries...and the brain totally resists the state of 'I really don't know'... the intellect 'feels' that it can/will find the answer, can solve the puzzle somehow, that it will come to it one day....but it can't and never will. Is it because the 'answer', the 'Freedom', lies in a different dimension? Is it that the 'answer' is the 'vastness' and the struggle and search to be 'free of the known' only continues and strengthens the self-created bondage?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 19 Dec 2017.

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Wed, 20 Dec 2017 #33
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Those images can't be negated but only be seen as illusions ... Then they vanish together with that who sees them as real ... Own will has no power over those images,

Juan, we are in agreement - it is exactly this seeing images as illusions that IS the negation. This is what I meant by negation - not an act of will.

Yes, there is no effort in negation, no act of will, and I would say no intention to get anywhere, to achieve anything. That is the beauty of it - it is nothing to do with the 'me'. Seeing the false AS the false is the act of negation. Perhaps such seeing is the only pure action.

Juan E wrote:
, but many think it has ... Then they become frustrated when those images return, having thought that they had overcome them by simply negating them through will.

We ARE an image, are we not? Trying to overcome them means one image trying to overcome another one. The winner will always be an image!

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Wed, 20 Dec 2017 #34
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Isn't it that as long as there is the 'desire' to 'negate' certain images and not the totality, there will be choice...... etc?

Yes Dan, I follow all that you say. Perhaps I caused some confusion with my words "Can the images be negated as they arise". Please see my post #42 above. I was not implying that there needs to be a "negate-er".

Yes, your point about "the totality" is well taken. It is certainly not a matter of picking and choosing. One has to be prepared (not suggesting any preparation), one has to be willing (not suggesting any will), for the whole of the psychological structure to drop away. One cannot let some desires end, but keep others. One cannot hang on to certain pleasures, while negating others.

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Wed, 20 Dec 2017 #35
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The self can't 'know' the "vastness" that lies outside its boundaries...

Yes, because the self IS knowledge, isn't it. So all it can know is knowledge. It cannot touch the unknown, and this vastness, if it exists, must be unknown.

and the brain totally resists the state of 'I really don't know'...

Again, is this not because the brain is composed of knowledge, the known?

the intellect 'feels' that it can/will find the answer, can solve the puzzle somehow, that it will come to it one day....but it can't and never will.

The very fact that the intellect busies itself in trying to find an answer, and thinks at some level that it can, may be the precise factor in preventing the breakthrough into the vastness.

Is it that the 'answer' is the 'vastness' and the struggle and search to be 'free of the known' only continues and strengthens the self-created bondage?

Certainly the struggle and search just continues the bondage, One can say that it IS the bondage.

Is it because the 'answer', the 'Freedom', lies in a different dimension?

That seems …... likely.

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Wed, 20 Dec 2017 #36
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

#38:

Clive Elwell wrote:
But how can one move towards an image? This is the whole problem with desire, isn't it? Because the image is not actual, and part of mind recognises that....

IS that the problem? Doesn’t the mind understand very well that the image is not the actual thing, that it can’t turn the image into the thing on the spot? The image is not the thing, but doesn’t the mind think that through effort and with the passage of time, it CAN acquire the desired thing or avoid the fear? Isn’t it the divided mind as “self” which thinks all that, the mind which is divided into “me” and “not-me”? Not the clear mind. Isn’t it this activity of image-making (e.g. “me” accomplishing, avoiding or fulfilling through time and effort, “me” remembering past pleasures, accomplishments and failures, and so on) which is the mental mechanism or process that divides the mind into “me” and “not-me”, that divides life into past, present and future, and that prevents fully experiencing the present moment? As long as I’m concentrated on these images and measuring them as true, I’m not experiencing “what is”, am I?

Isn’t “the problem” that the self which wants to move “towards” or “away from” an image ... IS itself part of the image? The image is complex, multi-faceted. The image is put together, assembled, produced, by the process which creates all the fragments - self, desire, effort and time - isn’t it? It is not just a one-dimensional picture. Time, self, desire and fear are part of it. It includes ... “me” who desires, desire, pleasure and fear, time which separates the present “me” from the future or past “me”, and so on. The “me”, the desire and the image of the object of desire, fear, etc., are all part of the same process or mental movement, aren’t they? There is no desirer without desire, no desire without a desirer, no desirer without time or fear or pleasure, no time or fear or pleasure without the desirer, no time without desire, and so on. These are part of any psychological image, aren’t they?

The imagined object of desire or fear also contains the image of “me”.

The remembered pleasure in Switzerland is pleasurable because “I” was there. I’m not just remembering a picture postcard. I was there then, I’m not there now. And in being attached to that memory, I’m avoiding what is.

And if the future is frightening, isn’t it because “I” am there (or my children are there) in the image of the projected future? In resisting that future psychologically, aren’t I avoiding what is?

To see this as fact (if it is fact) is not to say that I must detach myself from it through will. IS all this fact? And does seeing the nature and significance of self, time, desire, fear, etc., change anything? Does it matter? Is it another illusion?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 20 Dec 2017.

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Wed, 20 Dec 2017 #37
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
We ARE an image, are we not?

No, one have an image about ourselves which we are not !!

i've done some studywork lately and we don't accept that every movement - however small - is already a duality.
Movement can only exist with two entities, which are related to each other.
whether this is two thoughts or two objects, false or real ......
it does not matter at all !!!

I've read some basic physics at the site of " David Bohm society " (http://dbohm.com/)
and it became aware of what movement really is ...

The unpublished papers are realy interesting.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 20 Dec 2017 #38
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 958 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Dan: "and the brain totally resists the state of 'I really don't know'..".

Clive: Again, is this not because the brain is composed of knowledge, the known?

I wasn't thinking of the brain that way when I wrote that but in the way that K. had said that the brain was "infinite". Which I took as its unrealized capacity, its unused capability. (In the sense of a 'receiver'?) But the brain conditioned with this limiting search for certainty and security (psychologically) feels vulnerable with the "I don't know" state. It has to be active, to 'know', 'understand' or at least 'believe'... simply 'not knowing' (with no expectation to ultimately know or understand ) is too threatening. It is the 'unknown' that is the threat or as you have commented in the past, it is the image of the unknown that it fears. But the fact remains, despite the fears - we really don't know... Do we?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 21 Dec 2017.

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Thu, 21 Dec 2017 #39
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
IS that the problem? Doesn’t the mind understand very well that the image is not the actual thing, that it can’t turn the image into the thing on the spot?

Clive: If it realised that fully, why would it form images, become attached to images at all?

The image is not the thing, but doesn’t the mind think that through effort and with the passage of time, it CAN acquire the desired thing or avoid the fear?

Clive: This is be the assumption of the image-making process.

Isn’t it the divided mind as “self” which thinks all that, the mind which is divided into “me” and “not-me”? Not the clear mind.

Clive: What is this “clear mind”, Huguette? Feeling at the moment that I do not know/recognise such a thing at all.

Isn’t it this activity of image-making (e.g. “me” accomplishing, avoiding or fulfilling through time and effort, “me” remembering past pleasures, accomplishments and failures, and so on) which is the mental mechanism or process that divides the mind into “me” and “not-me”, that divides life into past, present and future, and that prevents fully experiencing the present moment? As long as I’m concentrated on these images and measuring them as true, I’m not experiencing “what is”, am I?

Clive: An image is not “what is”, no. An image is imaginary, it is an idea projected by the mind. And as you say, this projection involves time. It is the very creation of time, in fact, past or future.

Isn’t “the problem” that the self which wants to move “towards” or “away from” an image ... IS itself part of the image?
The image is complex, multi-faceted. The image is put together, assembled, produced, by the process which creates all the fragments - self, desire, effort and time - isn’t it? It is not just a one-dimensional picture. Time, self, desire and fear are part of it. It includes ... “me” who desires, desire, pleasure and fear, time which separates the present “me” from the future or past “me”, and so on. The “me”, the desire and the image of the object of desire, fear, etc., are all part of the same process or mental movement, aren’t they? There is no desirer without desire, no desire without a desirer, no desirer without time or fear or pleasure, no time or fear or pleasure without the desirer, no time without desire, and so on. These are part of any psychological image, aren’t they?

Clive: I am “looking at this” this Huguette – whatever that phase means. The truth or significance of your words do not strike me immediately. Or maybe the I see the various parts of what you see, but I am not seeing the sense of them as an integrated whole. Will continue to ponder.

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Thu, 21 Dec 2017 #40
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

re 48

Huguette . wrote:
IS that the problem? Doesn’t the mind understand very well that the image is not the actual thing, that it can’t turn the image into the thing on the spot?

Clive Elwell wrote:
If it realised that fully, why would it form images, become attached to images at all?

The problem, as I see it, is not that the mind forms images, but that it gives a value to them and does not see all their components, the entire process.

If the mind is viewing the “image” as being merely one-faceted - e.g. the one-dimensional pleasure in Switzerland or the desire for a promotion, and so on - it is missing the full significance or process of the image, isn't it? In restricting the image to the one aspect, isn't the mind "leaving out" time and self? Aren't time and self an integral part of the image?

There is no choice or effort involved in the formation of images, is there? It happens without volition, doesn’t it? It is in attributing a value to the image that the problem arises. It is in attributing value that the mind is "creating" self and continuity-time. Can there be a denial (wiping away) of the value attributed to the image, or is there an entrenching of the value and therefore an expansion or continuation of it, of self and time?

I don’t know if I’m explaining my meaning clearly. Of course, I also don’t know if I’m “right” :0)

Huguette:
Isn’t it the divided mind as “self” which thinks all that, the mind which is divided into “me” and “not-me”? Not the clear mind.

Clive:
What is this “clear mind”, Huguette? Feeling at the moment that I do not know/recognise such a thing at all.

When I say “clear mind”, I don’t mean clear through time. I don’t mean that clarity is “permanent”. I mean that in the moment, there can be clarity if there is no “denial” - denial of a different kind here, “denial” meaning pretense or lying to oneself. For example, I’m feeling ashamed, afraid, angry, conceited, desire, and so on --- to see the fact of it in the moment is clarity in that moment, isn’t it? There is no division in that, is there? No analysis, justification, explanation, pretense, and so on, in that, is there? Isn't that clear perception?

Where there is such clarity in the moment, where value is not attributed to images as they arise, and so on, then can one “attempt, without effort, to live with death, in timeless silence”? I'm asking, not saying it's so.

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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 #41
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
No, one have an image about ourselves which we are not !!

What I take your words to mean, Wim, is that we are not the content of the image, the thought. Which I go along with- an image is an imagined thing, a projection of thought, a description, and the description is never the described. And yes, it seems the reason the mind forms psychological images is to try to be other that it is -implying that it is dissatisfied with what it actually is - or thinks it is.

I am considering the words I wrote, and to which you responded - “We are an image, are we not”. I think I hold to that. Any suggestion of a “me” in the mind is always an image created by thought. But I don't want to dismiss the depths of this question.

Wim Opdam wrote:
i've done some studywork lately and we don't accept that every movement - however small - is already a duality.
Movement can only exist with two entities, which are related to each other.
whether this is two thoughts or two objects, false or real ......
it does not matter at all !!!

I've read some basic physics at the site of " David Bohm society " (http://dbohm.com/)
and it became aware of what movement really is ...

The unpublished papers are realy interesting.

This is all very interesting, Wim, and thanks for sharing your research, but I don't have the time at the moment to go into it. Perhaps I will return to your mail later.

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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 #42
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The problem, as I see it, is not that the mind forms images, but that it gives a value to them and does not see all their components, the entire process.

Yes, I am following you down to:

I don’t know if I’m explaining my meaning clearly. Of course, I also don’t know if I’m “right” :0)

And I think I understand. Certainly the image-creating happens without choice, effort, volition.

When you ask:

Huguette . wrote:
Can there be a denial (wiping away) of the value attributed to the image, or is there an entrenching of the value and therefore an expansion or continuation of it, of self and time?

When talking of "value attributed" to the image, you are not suggesting that some images are more useful than others, are you? We are talking of psychological images here, ones involving the self.

Would you say that this denial, wiping away, negation of the image happens naturally when the image is simply seen for what it is - ie an image, something imaginary, not actual? This does seem to happen if there is alertness. This seeing seems to encompass all the implications of image, the realisation that the image is, as you say, multi-faceted, very much encapsulated with time?

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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 #43
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Which I took as its unrealized capacity, its unused capability. (In the sense of a 'receiver'?)

Interesting observation that, Dan "in the sense of a receiver"

Dan McDermott wrote:
But the fact remains, despite the fears - we really don't know... Do we?

That is right, we really don't know, despite all our playing about with knowing, our attempts to know. And that is a very purifying thing to see.

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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 #44
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
When I say “clear mind”, I don’t mean clear through time. I don’t mean that clarity is “permanent”. I mean that in the moment, there can be clarity if there is no “denial” - denial of a different kind here, “denial” meaning pretense or lying to oneself. For example, I’m feeling ashamed, afraid, angry, conceited, desire, and so on --- to see the fact of it in the moment is clarity in that moment, isn’t it? There is no division in that, is there? No analysis, justification, explanation, pretense, and so on, in that, is there? Isn't that clear perception?

Yes, that is clear, Huguette.

Huguette . wrote:
Where there is such clarity in the moment, where value is not attributed to images as they arise, and so on, then can one “attempt, without effort, to live with death, in timeless silence”? I'm asking, not saying it's so.

It seems to me that this is a natural state, and is revealed as such, when all the mental striving is seen for the illusion that it is.

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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 #45
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 958 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Interesting observation that, Dan "in the sense of a receiver"

It is interesting to ponder that the brain is an unlimited 'receiver' with "infinite" possibilities that has crippled itself with the 'I' process.

This also connects for me with what K has called the "art of listening"...that the self/intellect 'grabs' instantaneously the words being heard (or read) and 'bars' them from reaching another 'deeper', quieter place in the brain. The 'art' then it seems to me, would be to allow the superficial 'hearing' (brain activity) to not become active or 're-active' to what is being said (or written) in the moment.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 22 Dec 2017.

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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 #46
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

#51:

Clive Elwell wrote:
Would you say that this denial, wiping away, negation of the image happens naturally when the image is simply seen for what it is - ie an image, something imaginary, not actual?

#53:

Clive Elwell wrote:
...when all the mental striving is seen for the illusion that it is.

As long as the image includes all its components: the fragmented or multi-faceted nature of the image, time, self, the value attributed to it, etc., and the "mental striving" which perpetuates it. Wouldn’t you say? It’s not just the picture postcard aspect which is imaginary. Self, time and value are imaginary. I can see that someone might have an objection to the aspect of “value”. If, for example, I call someone “evil” or “kind”, or I call an experience “pleasant” or “frightening”, is that label the truth?

Isn’t the value that is attributed to a thing, a person or behaviour, a reflection of “me” rather than an accurate reflection of the thing, person or behaviour being evaluated? It is not “evil” or “beautiful” because I label it. It is not “not evil” or “not beautiful” because I DON’T label it. The thing evaluated speaks for itself. It is what it is, whether I label it or not, whether I memorialize it or not, condemn it or not, praise it or not. Not labeling it doesn't mean that I approve, condone, condemn or disapprove, as the case may be. By labeling it, the mind is reinforcing, strengthening and continuing “me”, the status quo, the past, the tradition, the division, and so on, isn't it?

Added:
Which doesn't mean that I mustn't or shouldn't ever label anything "awesome, awful", and so on ... As long as there is awareness, understanding, the label does not become fixed or authoritative, as I see it.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Fri, 22 Dec 2017.

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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 #47
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 753 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
“We are an image, are we not”.

Clive, why do you think that in the reply the word "one" is used instead of " We "" ??

That's a very distinctive and intentional difference !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 23 Dec 2017 #48
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
As long as the image includes all its components: the fragmented or multi-faceted nature of the image, time, self, the value attributed to it, etc., and the "mental striving" which perpetuates it.

Sorry Huguette, this is not a complete sentence, so I cannot follow what you are saying.

Huguette . wrote:
Isn’t the value that is attributed to a thing, a person or behaviour, a reflection of “me” rather than an accurate reflection of the thing, person or behaviour being evaluated?

This is so, certainly - in fact this is what I was just expressing to Wim in my post #15 in the Silver Platter thread.

Huguette . wrote:
By labeling it, the mind is reinforcing, strengthening and continuing “me”, the status quo, the past, the tradition, the division, and so on, isn't it?

Yes, and I feel this applies very much to the labelling, the defining, the judgements, put on one's self. They all strengthen, continue, the self image. And IS there any self with these self images? I would go further, and say all such knowing of oneself is the cause of all conflict, all confusion, all misery in oneself

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Sat, 23 Dec 2017 #49
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote: As long as the image includes all its components: the fragmented or multi-faceted nature of the image, time, self, the value attributed to it, etc., and the "mental striving" which perpetuates it.

Clive Elwell wrote: Sorry Huguette, this is not a complete sentence, so I cannot follow what you are saying.

Sorry Clive. It was in response to this:

Clive Elwell wrote:

Would you say that this denial, wiping away, negation of the image happens naturally when the image is simply seen for what it is - ie an image, something imaginary, not actual?

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Thu, 28 Dec 2017 #50
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

One continues to observe this phenomena of image forming by the mind. I am not inferring a separate observer with those words.

Images somehow enter the mind, consciousness. It seems there are then two possibilities. They can fade away, die, without having had any apparent effect. Or they can take hold. They can act, have an effect, bring about some action or mental state. I thinking “taking hold” and “acting” mean the same thing in this respect. One might say that the image acts through the mind, is able to manifest through the mind. It cannot manifest if it fades away, dies first. When it acts, I would say that we are in a state of bondage. It is conditioning acting.

Several questions arise. One is, what determines whether an image acts, takes root, or not? Is awareness the factor?

If this the case, then a secondary question arises, what determines whether awareness is acting or not - if there IS a determining factor, that is?

And another question that seems relevant – where do images arise from? Is it the common human consciousness, the stream of consciousness? They seem connected with the senses, or the memory of the senses.

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Thu, 28 Dec 2017 #51
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

Clive,

When you say, “Images somehow enter the mind, consciousness”, what do you mean? Isn’t the mind, consciousness, already a massive warehouse of images - memories consisting of the visual and the verbal, together with their associated emotions, opinions, ideas, beliefs, conceits, sorrows, pleasures, values, and so on? An image is not a flat, one-dimensional photograph. Don’t images arise out of consciousness? It's not that each new incident or event is a unique, disparate image. The image includes the sentimentality, the attachment, the hate, the fear, the moral judgment, the bias, the prejudice, the conceit, the arrogance, time, and so on. Those are all aspects of the image, aren’t they? If I have an image of someone I hate or love, the whole image of that person includes the hate, the love, time, and with each new incident involving that person, the image is expanded. What that hated or loved person does today is added to an already existing image, isn't it?

So an “image” is not just a one-dimensional picture. Something jostles memory. It could be a current event, a challenge, a question, a comparison with something similar, and so on. It could be a word association, a sound association ... something obvious, or nothing apparent. The fact that it has arisen is not the problem, as I see it. It is by accepting, giving value to, the component of judgement, value or measure, that I am continuing it, strengthening it, isn't it? If the mind sees ALL the facets of the image-making process, including the self-recrimination, self-condemnation, self-judgment, self-annoyance, conceit, self-congratulations, etc., which arise - if the mind sees and understands that game, it doesn’t play that game, does it? Isn't that what stops the image from “taking hold”? It is observed but no value is given to it, the time component is understood, so it doesn't take hold. It is denied in the sense K talked about with his Switzerland example ... as I understand it.

And if something totally new occurs, something totally unknown, totally unfamiliar, something which cannot be compared in any way to and by the past, then there is no existing image to retrieve and expand. When something new happens, at first there is just silence, isn’t there? Shock perhaps. The past cannot immediately evaluate, categorize or classify it. With the passage of time, the past-self-consciousness “makes sense of it”, adjusts it, measures it, attributes value to it, explains it, incorporates it into an existing category and it is no longer “new”. It’s part of the past. It is assimilated into and by the past. The past or consciousness has been expanded. Isn’t that how we “get used” to the new and unfamiliar things that happen?

I’m looking at it with you, not saying that’s how it is. Not sure about anything.

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Thu, 28 Dec 2017 #52
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 958 posts in this forum Offline

Interesting in light of your discussion, for me today to 'wrestle' with D. Bohm's 'Implicate Order' in John R's post... memory as "hologram" for instance:

D.B. "We owe some light on this question to some works on brain structure, especially those of Pribram He supported the idea that the memories are, in a general way, recorded holographically in the whole brain. It follows that information on such object is not stored in a particular cell or in localized area of the brain; it is in the entirety of it that the totality of the information is recorded.
This allows us to suggest that when the "holographic" record is properly activated, it responds by creating a model of nervous energy reconstituting a partial experience, similar to that which had originally produced in a 'hologram'. But it also differs in that it involves less details, that memories accumulated at many different times can be melt together and that the circuits of logical thinking can intervene to impose a certain higher order on the whole model. In addition, if the senses are present at the same time, the whole of the answer coming from the memory will generally fuse with the nervous excitement from the senses to create a 'global experience' where memory, logic and sensory activity are combined into a whole that can not be analyzed. The fact remains that consciousness can not be reduced to the activation of the combined memory and the immediate sensation. It also involves the sense of self, attention, perception, acts of intellection and perhaps even more."

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #53
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, I think there's surely a proper place for scientific enquiries through scientific and mathematical concepts and theories, but for me it's not relevant in terms of facing "what is", of being aware. Aren't self-observation and self-understanding put aside in all this? Don't such enquiries take one away from the awareness of the workings of one’s own mind which is needed for self-understanding?

Sorry. I hope I don't sound dismissive. I do see a certain relationship between what Bohm says about “holomovement” etc. and our own enquiry into consciousness, image-making, and so on.

Such enquiries are in any case simply beyond the abilities or talents of this particular brain (my brain). Maybe “ultimately” this approach will solve the mysteries of the cosmos but, like I say, it’s so beyond my abilities that it actually hurts my brain if I try to understand it.

In today’s QOTD, K says, “if you are really confronted with a burning problem and there is no possible way of escape, then you will see that that problem does a miraculous thing to you. It is no longer merely a problem; it is intensely vital, it is to be examined, to be lived with, to be understood.” The approach taken by Bohm here is truly very interesting. But it does not give as sense of “being confronted with a burning problem”, does it? At least, not for me. To me, it does not address the burning problems we face in daily relationship.

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #54
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

Dan,

By “abstraction”, do you mean “extraction”?

Why do you say that the mind “abstracts/extracts” problems from wholeness? Does wholeness mean a nondescript void? Does wholeness exclude problems, planets, atoms, etc.? Does the wholeness of the body exclude its parts or disease? Does wholeness of the forest exclude the trees? Does the wholeness of the ocean exclude its currents, its living creatures, its pollution?

Does awareness reveal that our burning problems are not burning problems at all but an abstraction (extraction) from wholeness? When one is experiencing a burning problem, how does one face it?

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #55
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

In case you didn't notice the full quote, this is where the phrase "burning problem" that I used came from:

Quote of the Day (December 28-29, 2017 in my time zone)
New York City | 2nd Public Talk 13th March, 1935

Now, you cannot accept my word for it: all you can say is that you do not know. You do not know whether loneliness and fear will disappear, but by experimenting you will understand the whole significance of loneliness. If we merely seek a remedy for loneliness or fear, we become very superficial, don't we? To the man who has everything he wants, or the man who wants everything, life becomes very shallow. In merely seeking remedies, life becomes meaningless, empty; whereas, if you are really confronted with a burning problem and there is no possible way of escape, then you will see that that problem does a miraculous thing to you. It is no longer merely a problem; it is intensely vital, it is to be examined, to be lived with, to be understood.

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #56
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4529 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
When you say, “Images somehow enter the mind, consciousness”, what do you mean? Isn’t the mind, consciousness, already a massive warehouse of images - memories consisting of the visual and the verbal, together with their associated emotions, opinions, ideas, beliefs, conceits, sorrows, pleasures, values, and so on?

Huguette

I am just replying to the first part of your post at the moment, as it seems to me we have hit some fundamental issue of understanding. I welcome this, at it may clear up some basic misconception I have. Or it may simply be a matter of how we are using words, let us investigate.

For me, what you describe as “mind”, “consciousness”, does exist, but I would call it the river, or stream, of human consciousness. Yes, it is a massive warehouse, a reservoir, containing experiences that have happened “to this brain/body” in this lifetime, and also all the human experiences since man started, since the beginning of time. I have used the term “common human consciousness” in the past.

However, This is not what “I” experience as consciousness at any moment. I only experience a part of it at any given time.

Now when I say “I only experience” that needs some explanation. I am not suggesting that there is a “me” separate what is experienced, but language practically forces me to express it that way. So I hope that can be understood.

So I am saying that “my consciousness” is always just a small part of the common human consciousness – a particular thought, feeling, image, idea. A fragment of the reservoir. Yes, these fragments do arise out of the reservoir, I have an intimation of that (I could be wrong) but what is experienced as “my consciousness” is always only a fragment. It is not the whole reservoir. And this, rightly or wrongly, is how I use the word consciousness.

I await your comment on this – and of course the comment of others is very welcome.

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #57
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

I don’t think we’ve hit a fundamental misunderstanding, Clive. I understand that you’re not suggesting a “me” separate from the experience. It’s very clear to me what you mean by the stream of common human consciousness and that’s how I see it as well. (Watch, you’ll tell me I’ve got your meaning all wrong!) I also understand that in the moment, only a fragment is active. However, that moment does not negate the whole, does it? Can’t I - the mind - see both simultaneously: the fragment and the whole, the tree and the forest, the bird in the tree and the tree?

In any case, the reservoir of human consciousness is not what I was questioning. It was the word “enter” that made me think that you see the image as “entering” human consciousness from the outside, from the environment. This suggests to me that you view the image as a flat, one-dimensional photograph of sorts, an image “taken in” by the brain much like a tourist takes photographs of things on the “outside”. That's where the misunderstanding between us lies, I think.

Maybe I’ve got it ALL wrong ... not that it’s a matter of “right and wrong” ... or IS it? ... There’s just no certainty to hang conclusions on, is there. :0)

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #58
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Don't our 'burning problems' (and the one who would 'solve' them ) arise from the lack of awareness of what we truly are? Of what is beyond the 'manifest'? Maybe we've all "got it all wrong"?

I'm not saying the burning problems have to be solved. They have to be understood, don't they? They can't just be ignored on the basis that we are part of the whole. They are BURNING! Burning - not as an idea, a metaphor, a conclusion! What is right action in the face of burning problems? Life demands action, doesn't it? Do I base my action on the knowledge, awareness or understanding that life is a whole?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Fri, 29 Dec 2017.

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #59
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2271 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
it may also be 'burning' to glimpse that the "burning problems" we are facing are really not that at all but a sort of "abstraction" from the reality of 'wholeness'.

But war is not an abstraction from the reality of 'wholeness' is it? It is unfortunately very real. As is nationalism, racism, and all the other factors which divide us from our fellow man and divide us 'internally'. Are you trying to say that underneath all that division is 'wholeness'? Underneath violence is peace....underneath hate is love? Can I say "I love you", if I'm feeling hate or anger... or if I'm judging you? Some parents back when I was young would hit/beat the child (for being 'bad') and say, "I'm only doing this for your own good because I love you". Does this talk of wholeness help us to understand violence...to understand ourselves(the violence) as we actually are?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 29 Dec 2017.

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Fri, 29 Dec 2017 #60
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 634 posts in this forum Offline

re 71 and 72

Dan,

As long as there is no pretense, effort, repression or suppression in “living with death in timeless silence”, then to me that is right action. Then it is awareness - timeless silence - which acts, not pretense, is it?

Where there is no pretending that no burning problem is being experienced, where there is no pretending that the wholeness is “taking care of it”, where there is undivided, silent awareness of what is inwardly going on, then action flowers out of awareness, no?

To see wholeness does not mean that understanding is complete, does it? To see the parts also does not mean that understanding is complete. The parts cannot be extracted out the wholeness to exist hypothetically on their own. And the wholeness cannot exist without its parts. Without its parts, isn’t it non-existent? Can there be a forest if there are no trees, no earth, no rain, no insects, and so on?

Whatever understanding there is, partial or complete, it must be rooted in awareness, not in supposition or idea, don’t you think? Does awareness of the wholeness actually guide action? Again, how can there be awareness of the whole without there being awareness of the parts? As for me, I can only say that “wholeness as a guide for action” is a meaningless supposition or idea. I see the wholeness in creation, the indivisibility of the whole. I also see the parts within the whole - the beauty, sorrow and compassion, violence, fear, burning problems, and so on. Do I deny the parts, do I deny the sorrow, beauty and compassion? For me, such “denial” can only be pretending that it is not so.

You say in your reply to Tom, “we lost our connection with the whole”. What does that mean? How can we know that?

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