Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Is there more to understanding than this?


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Wed, 22 Nov 2017 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

I have often pondering the meaning and significance of “understanding”. What is there to understand? What is the act of understanding?

It came to me today that understanding means seeing clearly the mechanism of thought. Thought's causes/effects, its motives/motivations, its contradictions, its very nature. Its trickery, its attempts to deceive itself. Its relationship to time, its place in desire and pleasure. Its birth and death. And perhaps most importantly of all, the fundamental illusion of thinker/thought.

So apart from understanding the mechanism of thought, is there anything else to understand? Or is it that the understanding of the mechanism must come first, and everything else, if there is anything else, then stands revealed?

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Mon, 27 Nov 2017 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So apart from understanding the mechanism of thought, is there anything else to understand? Or is it that the understanding of the mechanism must come first, and everything else, if there is anything else, then stands revealed?

How can one answer ' Or is it that the understanding of the mechanism must come first,
and everything else, if there is anything else, then stands revealed? '
if one starts from not knowing, Clive ?

We start beginning to understand some of the structures of thought and that reveales something, but everything else ..... ?

it just sound / feels not right.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 28 Nov 2017 #3
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
if one starts from not knowing, Clive ?

What does it mean, "to start from not knowing"? The mind is knowing, is it not? Knowing in the sense of knowledge. A load of discontinuous, fragmented knowledge, which is the stream of human consciousness. So where is this not knowing"?

Is it in the seeing of that discontinuous, fragmented knowledge, seeing its confusion, its contradictory nature? This is from the quote of the day:

Krishnamurti: You can't see what to do, you can see only what not to do. The total negation of that road is the new beginning, the other road. This other road is not on the map, nor can it ever be put on any map. Every map is a map of the wrong road, the old road.

So beautiful that. So absolute. All maps are the structure of thought, aren't they?

Starting a long journey tomorrow, and may not be able to respond for a few days.

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Tue, 28 Nov 2017 #4
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Starting a long journey tomorrow, and may not be able to respond for a few days.

first of all: ' Have a nice and safe trip !! ' :-)

Clive Elwell wrote:
Krishnamurti: You can't see what to do, you can see only what not to do.
The total negation of that road is the new beginning, the other road.
This other road is not on the map, nor can it ever be put on any map. Every map is a map of the wrong road, the old road.

So beautiful that. So absolute. All maps are the structure of thought, aren't they?

isn't : The total negation of that road is the new beginning
not the same as: "starting from not knowing" ?

One can pickup the any words as one like
and make or suggest in to something it is or isn't meant, isn't it ?

Clive Elwell wrote:
So beautiful that. So absolute. All maps are the structure of thought, aren't they?

Even with this one should be handled carefully, because:

Ojai, California | 6th Public Talk 23rd June, 1934
Suppose that you say to yourself,
"I am not going to depend on another's experience, but will live by my own",
then surely you have already created a mould for your adjustment.
When you say, "I shall live by my own experience", you are already placing a limitation on your thought, for this idea that you must live by your own understanding creates complacency, which is only an ineffectual adjustment leading to stagnation. You know most people say that they will reject the outward pattern which they are constantly imitating, and will try to live within their own understanding. They say, "We will do only what we understand; and thereby they create another pattern which they weave into their lives.
And then what happens? They become more and more satisfied; hence they slowly decay.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 30 Nov 2017 #5
Thumb_breaking_free Julius Fann United States 3 posts in this forum Offline

Cognitive Validation. What can be proved, or validated in individual or collective minds of mankind concerning what has been the experience of awareness? Individual experiences sought to be proved or validated are only relative to individual experience and knowledge. In time, there has always been the Wise men who took people one step closer the awakening Word. But cognitive validation to what these men have projected to other minds cannot be authenticated by human knowledge, mediums, tarot cards, numerology, psychology, denominational and non-denomination churches, cults, or any method to reach beyond the mind into the invisible where all originate from.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

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Fri, 01 Dec 2017 #6
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
isn't : The total negation of that road is the new beginning
not the same as: "starting from not knowing" ?

I have been pondering your question from time to time. It is the word “starting” that puzzles me a little. Is that active or passive? Is the starting something one does? If so, what is it that one starts?

But certainly this negation of all roads – I take that to be the negation of thought, though not the active negation, which would be thought trying to negate thought, which actually goes on so much of the time, but the negation that naturally comes about through the seeing of the limited nature of thought – is a movement away from knowledge into not knowing.

Wim Opdam wrote:
One can pickup the any words as one like
and make or suggest in to something it is or isn't meant, isn't it ?

Yes, one may if one does not look what is behind the words.

Wim Opdam wrote:
"I am not going to depend on another's experience, but will live by my own",

But it does not matter whose experience it is, one's own or another's. If experience is being used as an authority, there is no freedom, and no learning. But this negation we were talking of – that is not an experience, is it? Rather it is the ending of all experience as authority

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Fri, 01 Dec 2017 #7
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Julius Fann wrote:
concerning what has been the experience of awareness?

This is picking up just part of your post, Julius, but I am wondering - and this is a genuine questioning – is awareness an experience? Is there any experience when there is awareness of the mental process? Or is it that in such awareness experience comes to an end. And in its place is experiencing?

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Fri, 01 Dec 2017 #8
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Julius Fann wrote:
What can be proved, or validated in individual or collective minds of mankind

I would say in essence, we know nothing, and can prove nothing in the mental realm. All we can do is observe

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Sat, 02 Dec 2017 #9
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
have been pondering your question from time to time. It is the word “starting” that puzzles me a little. Is that active or passive? Is the starting something one does? If so, what is it that one starts?

Yes Clive, some words like 'starting' ,'ending' but also 'all' and 'always' seems to indicate something which it is not ....

Clive Elwell wrote:
But this negation we were talking of – that is not an experience, is it? Rather it is the ending of all experience as authority

It's difficult to explain this in words, but let us try.....

A few years back we spend Christmass and New Year in Sydney that was an experience not only the weather but also the culture was so different for us as Europeans.There it was high summer and at home deep winter with all kind of consequences we enjoyed.

One cannot go back in time, so this event can only come into the present by memory and coloured loaded with thought and both are limited, seeing that at the moment of re-living keeps it in it place (the past) without distortion in the present.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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