Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Discomfort


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Mon, 13 Nov 2017 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Lately there have been expressions of discomfort in criticism,
is this not at the same time an expression of Love ?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 13 Nov 2017 #2
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 406 posts in this forum Offline

We don’t need to conclude that it’s necessarily so, do we? It can also be an expression of other feelings or of thought and emotions, can’t it?

But I think that it’s important for us to realize that it CAN be an expression of love, Wim .... Only awareness, self-observation, reveals the source to the one expressing it. No?

And if it IS love, can it also be understood by the recipient of the expression?

Can there be clarity for the mind in all this?

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Mon, 13 Nov 2017 #3
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
We don’t need to conclude that it’s necessarily so, do we?
It can also be an expression of other feelings or of thought and emotions, can’t it?

Yes indeeed, Thought can play insidious and clever tricks on itself ! .

But I think that it’s important for us to realize that it CAN be an expression of love, Wim .... Only awareness, self-observation, reveals the source to the one expressing it. No?

And if it IS love, can it also be understood by the recipient of the expression?

not necessarily, but that will not matter for love

Can there be clarity for the mind in all this?

Only with awareness.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 13 Nov 2017 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2040 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Lately there have been expressions of discomfort in criticism,
is this not at the same time an expression of Love ?

"Criticism" in what manner, Wim? Are you referring to disagreement or challenging something that was said? Is personal criticism appropriate at all if we are exploring together? Not really sure what you are referring to.

Let it Be

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Mon, 13 Nov 2017 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
And if it IS love, can it also be understood by the recipient of the expression?

What is different If Truth expresses itself through words
or thought in the disguise as truth is expressed in words ??

Is 'Awareness' enough to dismantle the disguise ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 13 Nov 2017 #6
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
"Criticism" in what manner, Wim? Are you referring to disagreement or challenging something that was said? Is personal criticism appropriate at all if we are exploring together? Not really sure what you are referring to.

Allow me to limit it to myself in #17 from 'Is it the same',
in which I gingerly the needlessness of Mina's reply mentioned.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 14 Nov 2017 #7
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3818 posts in this forum Offline

I find it interesting that you have started a thread entitled “discomfort”, Wim, because this is an issue I have been looking at a lot of late. “Looking at” because I have been acutely aware of this feeling, this sensation, although I tend to call it “un-ease” or “dis-ease”. Another words could be “anxiety”. However I have not looked at this issue in connection with love.

There is tendency to be concerned with particular sources of discomfort/unease. And also to try to eliminate the particular source, so as to feel easy, comfortable. But I am fairly sure such an approach will not get to the root of the problem. In fact trying to solve the problem, to alleviate the feeling, is likely to increase the sense of unease.

As far as I can see – and I may not have got to the root of the issue – unease is very much related to a sense of frustration. Of not getting what one wants, of not achieving what one wanted to achieve. (I recognise, Wim, this may not be what you are are discussing above, but still I am putting down my observations/reflections here). And one is led to the conclusion that frustration, and so unease, must be the other side of the coin from desire. And it is desire that has to be understood.

I may go further into the matter of desire on a new thread concerned with attention/awareness

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Tue, 14 Nov 2017 #8
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I find it interesting that you have started a thread entitled “discomfort”, Wim, because this is an issue I have been looking at a lot of late. “Looking at” because I have been acutely aware of this feeling, this sensation, although I tend to call it “un-ease” or “dis-ease”. Another words could be .

Hi Clive,

Founding your words “un-ease” or “dis-ease” equivalent with “discomfort” the label
that I have given to this very subtle feeling.
But apparently "anxiety" is too heavy a burden, which does not seem to fit.

Clive Elwell wrote:
However I have not looked at this issue in connection with love.

Me neither but suddenly this came up while investigating
what the source of this peculiar subtle but very clear feeling was.

Clive Elwell wrote:
There is tendency to be concerned with particular sources of discomfort/unease. And also to try to eliminate the particular source, so as to feel easy, comfortable. But I am fairly sure such an approach will not get to the root of the problem. In fact trying to solve the problem, to alleviate the feeling, is likely to increase the sense of unease.

That was the surprise to me: " quid quo pro " as one say it in Latin was not in place.

Clive Elwell wrote:
(I recognise, Wim, this may not be what you are are discussing above, but still I am putting down my observations/reflections here).

But it's good to have mentioned it because those elements were also at a closer look.

the deeper I examined myself for the possible motives both for this feeling and for the impulse to respond, the clearer it became that despite all possible misinterpretations it was the only correct action.

For the sake of clarity it had nothing to do with who, what, where or when but everything with the complexity and entanglement of thought that seemed to solve itself for a moment.

The doubt is on whether it was made somewhat clear with this words.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 15 Nov 2017 #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3818 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
The doubt is on whether it was made somewhat clear with this words.

Wim, I'm sure thought will clear things up in time -)

Not.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Wed, 15 Nov 2017.

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Wed, 15 Nov 2017 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Wim, I'm sure thought will clear things up in time -)
Not.

Clive, I'm sure thought will try to cover things up in time ;-)

Your reply appears to be a key to clarification of the discomfort.
'Comfort' being the thing of knowledge, of repetition, of security......
'Discomfort' is going together with doing, seeing something for the first time ....
without skill, dexterity, cleverness, facility, know-how.

Truth is to be seen between the lines, behind the words and Thought is covering up this space ...... make it a black hole consuming all the energy....

Thought is, as it were, the casing of the gift,
but we treat it ... dealing with it ....as if it were the gift itself.

This is exiting.... this freshness of explaining ....

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 15 Nov 2017.

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Wed, 15 Nov 2017 #11
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3818 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Truth is to be seen between the lines, behind the words and Thought is covering up this space ...... make it a black hole consuming all the energy....

Yes, well put. Writing on the 'senses' thread, I was approaching the perception that thought is the great obscuring factor of awareness. It is indeed a black hole, sucking all the much-needed energy ito itself, through the conflict it invariably creates. It is the reason the world is in the terrible state it is in, and the reason it cannot get out of that state.

I was reflecting that it was the overwhelming emphasis on thought, on the intellect, that so distorted my life - and I see that distortion is still there, operating. And yes, it is attractive, enthralling, like the gift that you mention. It seem to promise so much. We don't see the sting in the tail - or rather thought does not see the sting in its own tail.

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Thu, 16 Nov 2017 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Yes, well put. Writing on the 'senses' thread, I was approaching the perception that thought is the great obscuring factor of awareness. It is indeed a black hole, sucking all the much-needed energy ito itself, through the conflict it invariably creates. It is the reason the world is in the terrible state it is in, and the reason it cannot get out of that state.

But Clive, do not shoot the messenger, thought in service of .......
whatever one wants to call it...is not,
it does not know its place in the right order so to say,
it's doing bussines for itself
rather instead of being of service from ....!!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 17 Nov 2017 #13
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3818 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
But Clive, do not shoot the messenger, thought in service of .......

Is not thought in the service of conditioning? Which is to say, in service of itself, since it is conditioning?

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Fri, 17 Nov 2017 #14
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is not thought in the service of conditioning?
Which is to say, in service of itself, since it is conditioning?

Is ' Is not thought in the service of conditioning ?' in itself a thought ??
Is the outcome of thought a possible or always lead to a conditioning ??

recently I have to take medication for both slow heartbeat and blood thinners.
I must remember it, it can become such a habit
that I no longer remember whether I have taken them or not.

It is something from the past with a high frequency of repetition
but can lead to an obesity whether or not I have taken them
or whether it is necessary to take them or what if my memory at old age is going to fail .

So the statement: ' Thought is conditioning ' seems too strict ......, it does not live ..... it is made into a theory, is thought itself !!.

Though Thought can act in service of awareness.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 17 Nov 2017.

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Fri, 17 Nov 2017 #15
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3818 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Is ' Is not thought in the service of conditioning ?' in itself a thought ??

It is a thought. It is also a question. So what are you getting at, Wim? Are you saying that because thought has expressed it, the question has no validity? On this basis, would we not dismiss all psychological discussion, on the forum or off?

Wim Opdam wrote:
' Thought is conditioning ' seems too strict ......,

The cultivation of habit, such as you describe with your medication, which we all do to some extent, I think, in some areas, is the deliberate use of the capacity of the brain to be conditioned, is it not?

It does seem to me that thought is conditioning. Thought stems from knowledge, from experience, ultimately traceable back to registration of experience on the brain cells, is it not?

Wim Opdam wrote:
Though Thought can act in service of awareness.

I am transferring this comment to my "Does using the senses only serve the self" thread, hope you don't mind.

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Sat, 18 Nov 2017 #16
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

Is ' Is not thought in the service of conditioning ?' in itself a thought ??

It is a thought. It is also a question. So what are you getting at, Wim?

Are you saying that because thought has expressed it, the question has no validity?
On this basis, would we not dismiss all psychological discussion, on the forum or off?

I'm not getting at something or anything only expressing the present situation of this question.
Abouth the validity of the question one can asked oneself if this is keeping the self busy or wanting to enter the unknown.
You have to answer that yourself.

Clive Elwell wrote:
The cultivation of habit, such as you describe with your medication, which we all do to some extent, I think, in some areas, is the deliberate use of the capacity of the brain to be conditioned, is it not?

Living is fluid isn't it and can one put up a borderline between deliberate and without being aware one is doing it.
While writing seeng an other thing going on de-Liberate seems undoing freedom.

Clive Elwell wrote:
It does seem to me that thought is conditioning. Thought stems from knowledge, from experience, ultimately traceable back to registration of experience on the brain cells, is it not?

and

I am transferring this comment to my "Does using the senses only serve the self" thread, hope you don't mind.

Looking at those Humans who perform on a very high level, such as sport.
without knowledge...training.... they could not do it and without awareness they fail at the supreme moment, missing there olympic medal and at the same time this can as well being the outcome of a narsistic person or the joy of living.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sun, 19 Nov 2017 #17
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3818 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Looking at those Humans who perform on a very high level, such as sport.
without knowledge...training.... they could not do it and without awareness they fail at the supreme moment, missing there olympic medal and at the same time this can as well being the outcome of a narsistic person or the joy of living.

Interesting to bring this in But would you say such "high-performers" are in a state of awareness or a state of concentration, Wim?

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Mon, 20 Nov 2017 #18
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Interesting to bring this in But would you say such "high-performers" are in a state of awareness or a state of concentration, Wim?

No I'm not saying this, look....

The totality is a kaleidoscope from all kind of energies
and as well as concentration as well as awareness are part taking.

One can't change the consecution of the colours of the rainbow
or set apart one or more of the colours.

In my time as a cyclist I knew both Gerben Karstens and Joop Zoetemelk both performed very well (including Golden Olypic medals) but for Gerben it was pure pleasure and with Joop achievement, with the result that Gerben could handle his loss and Joop did not. Gerben could share his skills - I learned a lot from him - but not from Joop. After I've beaten him in a timerace he did - without succes - everything to get me disqualified, my bike was not according the rules......, I should have taken a shortcut etc., etc .....

I can only speak for myself but in training 'concentration' was the leading force and in competion 'awareness', but both were always present !!

Nowadays I still enjoying cycling with my wife ( she has an e-bike ) and awareness for the nature is the leading energy.

Let me try to picture it otherwize:

"There were dark clouds above the horizon and the setting sun behind us shone brightly, the autumn colors on the trees constantly changed even occasionally golden but not the shadow on the road that traveled with us, which remained almost the same despite the sun which apparently sometimes just behind a cloud. Why doesn't the human spirit could continue to follow that flexibility of this color festival and not be distracted by that colour of shadow, which stay also present "

This happened last week on a road we take almost twice a week !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 20 Nov 2017 #19
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Group Discussion 30th December, 1947 | Madras, India

You want to know what will happen when you feel that you are 'the whole'. Feeling as 'the whole' comes perhaps later. But first, you are nothing and you are not concerned with what comes after. If you are concerned with what is beyond the nothingness, it means you are frightened of being nothing. 'Be nothing'. Life then becomes extraordinarily simple and beautiful. Being nothing, i.e. acknowledging 'what is', is one of the most difficult tasks because mind does not like it, because it is afraid of being nothing, i.e. of having no security. But the moment you 'are nothing', you love; till then, you do not know what it means to love; till then, you have the resistance of responsibility, of duty and marrying off. If you love you wife really, you will love your children. Then you would see how they are to be taught and by whom they are to be taught. Because you love them, you want to see that they are the best human beings, not that you would compel them to any ideal. You do not realise what a revolution this will produce.

This also fits the situation

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 21 Nov 2017 #20
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3818 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
One can't change the consecution of the colours of the rainbow
or set apart one or more of the colours.

Yes. Why does one think one has to change oneself all the time, and change almost everything that one comes into contact with?

Physically, materially, there is often need of change - in a garden, cleaning the house, shopping. All that is reasonable, sane. But the mind seems to get obsessed with its ability to change the physical world. It creates preferences, choices, when none are needed.

And psychologically, it is on the go all the time, trying to change itself, improve, perfect itself. But it seems to me in this area it never gets anywhere, and the only real outcome is conflict.

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Tue, 21 Nov 2017 #21
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Yes. Why does one think one has to change oneself all the time, and change almost everything that one comes into contact with?

Clive, it is not only to change but also wanting to hold on it !

This special event with the light and the autumn colours,
it would be silly to want to hold on it or to expect it back the next time.
This also is keeping one's house in order, and this is not physically.

So also here there is no borderline the outer is the inner.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 21 Nov 2017.

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