Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Donald Trump's responses to the recent massacre


Displaying posts 61 - 67 of 67 in total
Tue, 10 Oct 2017 #61
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3729 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But what exactly causes this 'vulgarity' would you say, Clive?

The word “vulgarity” is an interesting one. According to my favourite website, http://www.etymonline.com/
vulgar means:

"common, ordinary," from Latin vulgaris, volgaris "of or pertaining to the common people, common, from vulgus "the common people, multitude, crowd, throng,"

So in essence vulgarity is simply what most people do.

It was not until the 17th century that the meaning of "coarse, low, ill-bred" came into use.

The dictionary quotes this example:

“What we have added to human depravity is again a thoroughly Roman quality, perhaps even a Roman invention: vulgarity. That word means the mind of the herd, and specifically the herd in the city, the gutter, and the tavern.” [Guy Davenport, "Wheel Ruts"]

K referred to the stream of human consciousness as “the vulgar stream”

So in this sense of the word, nothing has caused vulgarity especially, it is always there. A better question might be, “can one step out of the vulgar stream?”. And obviously this means much more than simply refining one's habits. What does it mean. That is a question I would like to go into.

Considering the other meaning of the word, the more specific meaning of coarse, crude, crass, unrefined, rude, even obscene, ….... where does it come from? I look into myself for an answer, and I would say it is too great a concern with sensation. The pleasures of the senses, distorted by thought, image. In his early talks, K used to talk of" being ruled by sensate values".

Perhaps this is our animal instincts, which are clearly still very dominant in us.

As to the example of Bruce Springsteen you mention, is that not more a question of being hurt? You do not say what he felt was the outcome of his gross mistreatment.

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Tue, 10 Oct 2017 #62
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Considering the other meaning of the word, the more specific meaning of coarse, crude, crass, unrefined, rude, even obscene, ….... where does it come from? I look into myself for an answer, and I would say it is too great a concern with sensation. The pleasures of the senses, distorted by thought, image

But all of that is an escape from conflict...from suffering....even if unconscious. That's why I said that suffering is the root of it. But I may be mistaken. How does a young child become crude? I noticed as a little kid that some boys were picking up this vulgar and crude behavior and speech from their older family members and older peers at an early age. Others were still a little shocked by it. Some boys would laugh when another boy tripped and fell or bumped their head or fell down in a sporting event or game. They got amusement, entertainment, from someone else's hurt. Isn't that because they feel relief from their own hurts (inner) by laughing at another's pain?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 10 Oct 2017.

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Tue, 10 Oct 2017 #63
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3729 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But all of that is an escape from conflict...from suffering....even if unconscious. That's why I said that suffering is the root of it. But I may be mistaken. How does a young child become crude? I noticed as a little kid that some boys were picking up this vulgar and crude behavior and speech from their older family members and older peers at an early age. Others were still a little shocked by it. Some boys would laugh when another boy tripped and fell or bumped their head or fell down in a sporting event or game. They got amusement, entertainment, from someone else's hurt. Isn't that because they feel relief from their own hurts (inner) by laughing at another's pain?

As I just touched upon in my last post, I would say the dominant force here is the 'instinctive” drive to conform to the group around one. And I would say this is an inherited animal instinct. It was a matter of physical survival. And now with modern mankind what has been added to that is the drive to conform psychologically.

This conformity often takes the form of turning on some weaker member of the group, doesn't it? As with dogs, wolves. I'm not an expert on this (except I certainly was a victim of the phenomena at school) but one can see how such behavour tends to increase the bond between the pack members. Ie, one feels more secure.

And one see that fear is the motive of conformity, not wanting to stand out, be vulnerable. And if one doesn't join in with the attacks on others, on might well find oneself the victim of such an attack oneself.

As for your question: “Isn't that because they feel relief from their own hurts (inner) by laughing at another's pain?”, - I don't honestly know.

“ I noticed as a little kid that some boys were picking up this vulgar and crude behavior and speech from their older family members and older peers at an early age” I think this can be explained by what I say above, but the explanation may not be complete. This phrase “picking up” is interesting. It obviously means “being conditioned”. Fear is a factor of conditioning, isn't it (along with pleasure). But I have a theory, a conviction, that what we appear to “pick up” is already in the stream of human consciousness. Somehow, given the right stimulus or circumstances, it manifests in us, that is, in a particular brain.

Hence, vulgarity.

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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 #64
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
As for your question: “Isn't that because they feel relief from their own hurts (inner) by laughing at another's pain?”, - I don't honestly know.

I'm a weak, insecure, unhappy little German in 1930. I join the Nazi party, and suddenly I gain an identity with something great in my mind. I am myself, suddenly larger in stature. I instigate the harassment of some Jews and I am admired by my peers....my fellow comrades. I grow even more in stature. My fears and insecurities are no longer in the forefront of my consciousness. I have an identity as something great...powerful...important now. I am somebody with a purpose instead of an insecure nobody floundering in the turbulence of life.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 11 Oct 2017.

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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 #65
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 552 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I'm a weak, insecure, unhappy little German in 1930. I join the Nazi party, and suddenly I gain an identity with something great in my mind.

why going back in time, Tom ??

Isn't going on here and now, Democrats, Republicans .....
Populists, Liberals and not to forget the state-capitalists in communism ??

Is this not obviously the same energy?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Is this not obviously the same energy?

Same, yes. We were discussing the violence of tge school kids here at one point.....actual physical violence as well as verbal taunting and abuse... that's the only reason I brought up the Nazis as an example. It's the way they treated the Jews even back before Hitler came to power.

Let it Be

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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 #67
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3729 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I'm a weak, insecure, unhappy little German in 1930. I join the Nazi party, and suddenly I gain an identity with something great in my mind. I am myself, suddenly larger in stature. I instigate the harassment of some Jews and I am admired by my peers....my fellow comrades. I grow even more in stature. My fears and insecurities are no longer in the forefront of my consciousness. I have an identity as something great...powerful...important now. I am somebody with a purpose instead of an insecure nobody floundering in the turbulence of life.

Yes, this would be pretty much the same thing that goes on in the playgrounds of schools, or later among the street gangs. Even in the relationships in offices, institutions, in somewhat more subtle ways, as I have heard.

The word "scapegoat" has significance in this, also.

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