Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Creation and destruction as one


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Wed, 20 Sep 2017 #1
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 97 posts in this forum Offline

There exists no 'creative mind'. Creation is the constant destruction of the mind itself.

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Wed, 20 Sep 2017 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3729 posts in this forum Offline

Manna Martini wrote:
There exists no 'creative mind'. Creation is the constant destruction of the mind itself

In that creation, is anything being created, would you say?

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Thu, 21 Sep 2017 #3
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
In that creation, is anything being created, would you say?

Mina: Well, is not the manifested world, including our bodies and manifesting thoughts, already an answer to your question? :-)

Something CAN be created, and that which is created is really one with the Creator and Creation, but the Creator/Creation can also not manifest, since it is the Unmanifested itself.

And life loves to create...you can sense it in yourself when you are completely one with all that is described above...the creator-creation-creature, moving through one, as the totality of life..

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Thu, 21 Sep 2017.

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Thu, 21 Sep 2017 #4
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 552 posts in this forum Offline

Manna Martini wrote:

Clive Elwell wrote:

In that creation, is anything being created, would you say?

Mina: Well, is not the manifested world, including our bodies and manifesting thoughts, already an answer to your question? :-)

Something CAN be created, and that which is created is really one with the Creator and Creation, but the Creator/Creation can also not manifest, since it is the Unmanifested itself.

But does this description explain the difference between the created society,
which is full of greed, cruelty etc ... etc and the creation of the natural virgin things around us ??

Something is missing and this is partly due to the shortcomings in our language, which keeps me busy the last few days and which is still not clear to me.

Some things are completely misrepresented by the language (an answering device is actually a device for capturing a message) and some even misleading (on a gray day we say 'the sun does not shine' and yet we are sseing light and the sun can not turned on or turned off).

The clarity of " The Teaching " is wonderfull and it is that brightness that is often lacking in our own use of language, why ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 21 Sep 2017.

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Thu, 21 Sep 2017 #5
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Wim, nice to see you..

Mina: Well, is not the manifested world, including our bodies and manifesting thoughts, already an answer to your question? :-)
Something CAN be created, and that which is created is really one with the Creator and Creation, but the Creator/Creation can also not manifest, since it is the Unmanifested itself.

Wim:But does this description explain the difference between the created society,
which is full of greed, cruelty etc ... etc and the creation of the natural virgin things around us ??

Mina:

To fully understand the nature of creation, by being it, (indeed there is no other 'way'!), is the ending of the observer/observed, and the divided society it is creating.

So, in this sense, the full understanding of "the difference between what thought is creating and what the source is creating " is already living in pure Creation.

That understanding is not of course thought, but its very destruction which IS Creation.

So yes, only pure Creation is, the mind (society) is not.

Explaining the difference between two things of which only one is real, is not the way to go.

Instead, all the energy is in being the Creation, and nothing else exists.

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Mon, 25 Sep 2017 #6
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 552 posts in this forum Offline

Nice to see you back too, Mina :-)

Manna Martini wrote:>Explaining the difference between two things of which only one is real, is not the way to go.

Instead, all the energy is in being the Creation, and nothing else exists.

Are we investigating this together or does one have to take your statement for truth ?
Indeed there are no ways to go nor with any explination or description, but not real ??

Is the hero veteran full of pain about the lies about his war crime
and no longer wanting to live with that lie a creation of truth ??

Yes, the truth plays a role here as well as the lies, they are not made up but those are real we may not imagine life more beautiful than it is and should be careful not to be too philosophical about reality.

Now I can support this argument with a quote from K. but would that adds something to the facts ??

Pain is real, but is it necessary ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 25 Sep 2017 #7
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Wim,

Wim:>Are we investigating this together or does one have to take your statement for truth ?

Mina: If you took what you experience as 'someone's statement' for truth, that would not be truth, but just some limited idea. Such thing is definitely not wished for at this end!

Feeling completely open here Wim, for anything, no conclusion driven. This very 'state' of openness, of not knowing, is empty of any experience of contradiction (experience IS contradiction/thought!) and therefore there is an absolute, choiceless, uncompromising feeling to it...which may be interpreted by others, understandably, unless we fully live this together beyond ANY thought/division/interpretation whatsoever, as coming from 'someone who thinks she knows alreadly' etc....

So, open, space, although no idea 'what to investigate' , there does not seem to be any content..

But go ahead, here with you...

Wim:Indeed there are no ways to go nor with any explination or description, but not real ??

Mina: Yes, no way..meaning no steps in the division thinker and thought..which is the way of time, of division, of sorrow and contradiction.

Wim:>Yes, the truth plays a role here as well as the lies, they are not made up but those are real we may not imagine life more beautiful than it is and should be careful not to be too philosophical about reality.

Mina: It is exactly the imagination, as thought and conceptual contradictory reality, which have created the wars and the veteran you describe. Life is absolutely beautiful, absololutely free, beyond the boundaries of mind/image/concept/in it. This beauty cannot be imagined. No philosphy can touch it, no mind can touch it. This is not about denying the reality created by thought on earth, this is about going through it. It is only pure percpetion, or the total response that has been mentioned here lately, that cuts through the whole world of thought in a timeless moment, and comes out untouched by it, realising that nothing has been cut, nothing real was there to go through (to experience, in other words) in the first place.

Wim:>Now I can support this argument with a quote from K. but would that adds something to the facts ??

Mina: We must move through the facts that thought has created on earth, as described above. Those facts are there (like the fact of the wars) for as long as we do not, ourselves, discover our own true nature as Peace.

Wim:>Pain is real, but is it necessary ??

Mina: It may be necessary and meaningful, at least as much as it is let to serve the waking up of a human being to their true nature from the nightmare of suffering.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Mon, 25 Sep 2017.

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Mon, 25 Sep 2017 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Manna Martini wrote:
Wim:>Yes, the truth plays a role here as well as the lies, they are not made up but those are real we may not imagine life more beautiful than it is...

Mina: It is exactly the imagination, as thought and conceptual contradictory reality, which have created the wars and the veteran you describe. Life is absolutely beautiful, absololutely free, beyond the boundaries of mind/image/concept/in it.

I doubt you would tell the slave that 'Life is absolutely beautiful', Mina. The young women working in a sweat shop in Bangladesh 10 or 12 hours per day. The Jewish people who lost family members in the Holocaust, not to mention those living in the death camps. This is the modern day equivalent of the crucifixion! The young teenage girls selling their bodies in the brothels in Bangkok. "Father why have you forsaken me?"

From Krishnamurti's Notebook (209) 11th

The dirty street was terribly crowded; it was more dirty than ever; they spat all over the place; the narrow pavement was incredibly filthy, never swept and it would be many months before the torrential rains would come and wash away the brutal ugliness of an overcrowded and callous city. The sea was just on the other side of the road. The purifying tide was coming in, covering the black rocks and the sands made dirty by man. Wherever he went there was dirt, brutality and a terrifying indifference to everything, and those who cared a little soon became social workers or those undying politicians. The hideous posters on the walls were telling the world what marvellous things they would do if you only elected them and nobody else. Every dog left a mark on that road where you walked; no incoming tide would wash the street clean; the mind was tired and the heart had withered and a small girl was using the street as her toilet. You wept and out of the car a man threw the butt of a cigarette and before a man could pick it up, the tyres of a car went over it; it was a half-smoked cigarette too.
(to be continued)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 25 Sep 2017.

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Mon, 25 Sep 2017 #9
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I doubt you would tell the slave that 'Life is absolutely beautiful', Mina. The young women working in a sweat shop in Bangladesh 10 or 12 hours per day. The Jewish people who lost family members in the Holocaust, not to mention those living in the death camps. This is the modern day equivalent of the crucifixion! The young teenage girls selling their bodies in the brothels in Bangkok. "Father why have you forsaken me?"

Mina: When one fully realises one's true essence as the whole of life, as freedom, as energy without the bounds of thought, as the beauty that is talked of, this very realisation is the most precious gift to all humanity,

The Beauty that is talked of is the energy in which 'the young women working in a sweat shop is Bangladesh 10 to 12 hours per day, the Jewish people who lost families in the Holocaust, the young teenage girls selling their bodies in the brotherls in Bangkok' are being helped in the most fundamental and crucial way.

You do not see the full significance of this, because the separation insists in you, you look from that division...perhaps thinking I am just living 'my own beauty here', not concerned about others, since I am well etc....

It is not this shallow, for heaven's sake, for the sake of all humanity and other life forms on earth!!!!

This is about realising that one needs to completely and absolute be the new foundation on earth, that of oneness, true brotherhood, compassion. It is impossible in such energy, any brothels, to mention an example, to exist!!! There is no other place than ourselves where freedom FOR ALL can be discovered. It is not a personal business, ever! It is about the ending of the personal and the discovery of the universal!

...

When viewed from separation, it is hard to understand how one person living throroughly and fundamentally free, and joyous, would have an effect on others? This happens because the others are seen as separate, and the others are seen as separate because within you yourself the observer-observed -division has not completely been exposed to light where it dissolves.

If we are truly concerned about the state of the world, then we truly change, in ourselves! This real change, this real dissolution of sorrow of all mankind, of all consciouness in its divided state, into Oneness, is the ultimate, the most sublime and sacred action that can ever take place.

All else are compromises, half-measures, coming from the same mind which has created these phenomena you describe, and they do not uproot 'the reality of the brother and the young teenagers working there' fundamentally and completely.

We are here, at least this person is, to be unconditionally and complete free, because that is the only real action the world created by re-actions, (contradictory reactions from thought) is in need of.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Mon, 25 Sep 2017.

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Mon, 25 Sep 2017 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Manna Martini wrote:
This is about realising that one needs to completely and absolute be the new foundation on earth, that of oneness, true brotherhood, compassion. It is impossible in such energy, any brothels, to mention an example, to exist!!!

Of course they exist....at this very moment. Unless you think you have single handedly removed them yourself. I know where you're coming from, in a sense, Mina. Years ago I was friends with a married couple who were heavy drug users. They lived in a totally ugly, filthy, apartment with roaches and overflowing garbage and overflowing cat litter box. ONE day I was visiting and suddenly all thinking of the mess stopped and I was just present with them. Everything seemed perfect because I didn't judge it in any way. The mind that judges and condemns was absent. A bit later I came to my senses (haha) and realized that this was really a disgusting way to live. Especially since their very young child lived with them. But with NO reaction of the mind, everything is purified. I had a similar experience mopping the floor in a horrible residence for the mentally ill where I was employed at the time. Suddenly I felt like I was in the Garden of Eden....free of sin...totally at peace. But we can still talk about the suffering of the slave or the Holocaust victim...or those poor folks who lived in the home for the mentally ill. And the mind that is responsible for those and countless more horrors. I'm not sure that speaking of presence will be any help to the one living with terrible suffering. In fact I think it's rather meaningless. It's not going to help him understand himself as he is, is it?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 25 Sep 2017.

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Mon, 25 Sep 2017 #11
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I'm not sure that speaking of presence will be any help to the one living with terrible suffering. In fact I think it's rather meaningless. It's not going to help him understand himself as he is, is it?

I feel not ... That person would have to look at that terrible suffering without judging it ... And the only way he or she could do it is in the company of another suffering being looking together at suffering, not individual suffering ... The two friends of who K used to talk about ...

Unfortunately this is really difficult, because we are not used to look at suffering but only to MY or HIS/HER/THEIR suffering through all the conditionings, fears, and so on we all have ...

There's no 'presence' without having looked deeply at own suffering (which is the world's suffering) ... Otherwise, 'presence' is merely an illusion.

Now yes, good night! ... 'Til tomorrow! :)
BTW, nice to read you again, Wim!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Mon, 25 Sep 2017.

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Tue, 26 Sep 2017 #12
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
There's no 'presence' without having looked deeply at own suffering (which is the world's suffering) ... Otherwise, 'presence' is merely an illusion.

m:Yes. In one's own suffering (in no separation from the world's suffering) does suffering of the world continue, or is brought to an end through understanding the whole of it. For as long as there is the subtlest experience of division (of the self), in other words intellectual understanding trying to replace the actual, this cannot be truly lived and understood.

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Tue, 26 Sep 2017 #13
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Tom:>Of course they exist....at this very moment. Unless you think you have single handedly removed them yourself.

Mina: Yes, of course they exist still, I am not saying that they don't. I am describing the dissolution of the foundation on which all the distortion is based, in oneself, and the immeasurable, always Unknown, effects of it.

It would be immature to think that it worked that way Tom :-) And yet, it is very very actual, this is about letting the energy of wholeness, of love, come into the world, through you, without your interference. There is the healing, ultimately, for all. It encompasses everything. It works, but not in the ways of the known, you understand??? So, do not look if the brothel is there or not, do not look for results, just be focused on not contributing to that reality, letting it end in yourself, from moment to moment. This could not but make it more likely that the world created by division will ultimately disappear from everywhere. While saying this to you, I am saying it to myself the same. No division between us!!

Tom: Years ago I was friends with a married couple who were heavy drug users. They lived in a totally ugly, filthy, apartment with roaches and overflowing garbage and overflowing cat litter box. ONE day I was visiting and suddenly all thinking of the mess stopped and I was just present with them. Everything seemed perfect because I didn't judge it in any way. The mind that judges and condemns was absent.

Mina: How wonderful to read this Tom! Thank you so much for sharing it! It was a fresh breeze needed! -If I may say hesitantly, hoping that no offence is taken, I almost feel that your mind is often neurotically revolving around the 'ugliness of the world', without your fully realising how by the experience of that reality, you are creating it in yourself. No, I of course do not mean (how many times do I have to say this, perhaps for as long as I live :-) ) that anything is DENIED, or refused to be seen, etc,etc, but I am talking about how the world of division is ultimately created on in ourselves, nowhere else. It lives in you if you experience it, you are that experience. You describe the whole of it so beautifully above.

Tom: A bit later I came to my senses (haha) and realized that this was really a disgusting way to live.

Mina: Oh no!!! :-) :-) You came to your mind, I would say...:-)

..Tom:... Especially since their very young child lived with them. But with NO reaction of the mind, everything is purified. I had a similar experience mopping the floor in a horrible residence for the mentally ill where I was employed at the time. Suddenly I felt like I was in the Garden of Eden....free of sin...totally at peace.

MIna: Wonderful...you ARE the Garden of Eden Tom...

Tom:But we can still talk about the suffering of the slave or the Holocaust victim...or those poor folks who lived in the home for the mentally ill. And the mind that is responsible for those and countless more horrors.

Mina: Of course we can talk....the mind is responsible for it all BY ITS VERY EXISTENCE. This is why understanding the mind, totally, is the most significant thing to happen in this world.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Tue, 26 Sep 2017.

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Tue, 26 Sep 2017 #14
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Manna Martini wrote:
I almost feel that your mind is often neurotically revolving around the 'ugliness of the world', without your fully realising how by the experience of that reality, you are creating it in yourself.

I doubt it, Mina. I am creating my thoughts and emotions? Is there a me separate from them?
The 'ugliness' of the world' comes up here a lot in discussions because I feel it needs to be said. It comes up in response to what's been posted....not necessarily in my day to day existence. Though there was a time when the ugliness WAS my daily existence. We just lost a friend to drugs. She was in her early 30's. I didn't create that tragedy by my experience of it. Nor my other friend's insane drug and alcohol abuse.....while raising a child.

Tom: A bit later I came to my senses (haha) and realized that this was really a disgusting way to live.

Mina: Oh no!!! :-) :-) You came to your mind, I would say...:-)

I saw it was filthy ....probably a fire hazzard....and a dangerous place to raise a child.

by the experience of that reality(the ugliness), you are creating it in yourself.

Would you have told that to the poor Jews who were thrown into death camps by Hitler's insane Nazis? Yes, little children were destroyed along with the millions of adults. Well society today is just as brutal and yes, ugly, as it was in the 1930's in Germany in many ways. Are you trying to say that it's NOT ugly?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 26 Sep 2017.

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Tue, 26 Sep 2017 #15
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Manna Martini wrote:
Mina: Of course we can talk....the mind is responsible for it all BY ITS VERY EXISTENCE. This is why understanding the mind, totally, is the most significant thing to happen in this world.

This is a powerful statement, Mina. Human consciousness has created the 'mess'..IS the house on fire. You're referring to psychological thought(ideals, beliefs, attachments, etc) of course....not using the mind to cook dinner. Perhaps others will have something to say here.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 26 Sep 2017.

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Tue, 26 Sep 2017 #16
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Tom I have a feeling that also the dinner will come out more delicious if you do not put too much thought/mind on it, but all of your heart instead. Like when cooking for an honoured guest, out of love. :-)

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Tue, 26 Sep 2017.

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Tue, 26 Sep 2017 #17
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Manna Martini wrote:
Tom I have a feeling that also the dinner will come out more delicious if you do not put too much thought/mind on it, but all of your heart instead. Like when cooking for an honoured guest, out of love. :-)

I hate cooking! But I'm OK with opening cans (salmon or sardines or pea soup). I'm not too shabby with the microwave either. :)

Let it Be

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Tue, 26 Sep 2017 #18
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 552 posts in this forum Offline

Hello all

Thanks for the answers after my last visit here.

Life is going on its way and this morning I had to put the trash along the road because the garbage truck would come by.
You must keep your house in order, you know !

There was a low fog and the sun did its best to let it evaporate.
Surprisingly, I stared at a cobweb that prevented my exit.
The light on the dew drops, the fantastic orderly structure stuck my walk impressed by this natural beauty, suddenly seeing the purpose of this carefully built network, the passively waiting spider on her food, unexpectedly awoke a thought jump or rather a wave of thoughts . This network as a metaphor for thoughtless awareness of mental nutrition, but also the network of thoughts that, as a straitjacket, paralyze you to do what you need to do.

The noise of the arriving truck forced me to interrupt this natural miracle
and proceed with a daily bagatel.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 26 Sep 2017.

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Tue, 26 Sep 2017 #19
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Mina: Tom I have a feeling that also the dinner will come out more delicious if you do not put too much thought/mind on it, but all of your heart instead. Like when cooking for an honoured guest, out of love. :)

The guest can have pea soup too...unless they prefer minestrone :) That's the extent of our cuisine...well maybe I can pick up some nice rolls to dip into the soup :) On a very special occasion I may actually cook. Put up some water to boil...add 5 or 6 eggs...cook thoroughly, then peel...add mayonaise and soy sauce... or green olives on a VERY special occasion..and make a whopping bowl of egg salad. One of my girlfriend's favorite dishes.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 27 Sep 2017.

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Tom: A bit later I came to my senses (haha) and realized that this was really a disgusting way to live.

Mina: Oh no!!! :-) :-) You came to your mind, I would say...:)

Tom: I overlooked this first time around. No, I disagree. I would say that it's rather sane and intelligent to see the ugliness of the way that married couple with young child were living....the filth, drugs, smoking, tv constantly on. No sunlight and fresh air. There was nothing beautiful or holy or sacred about destroying their and their child's life.

Let it Be

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #21
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3729 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I doubt you would tell the slave that 'Life is absolutely beautiful', Mina.

One was also shedding tears at the brutality of the world this morning

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/09/gaza-children-suffer-war-trauma-years-170910080659516.html

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #22
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

I doubt you would tell the slave that 'Life is absolutely beautiful', Mina.

Clive: One was also shedding tears at the brutality of the world this morning

Tom: Yes, life is not all beautiful, in spite of what Mina was saying. Seeing child abuse first hand is in unthinkable horror. One's whole being recoils from the shock and horror of it.

K.: "So there is a dual process going on - the avoidance of that which we call ugly, and the capturing of that which we call beauty - and in that conflict the mind becomes dull, the mind becomes insensitive, unaware. It is like walking down the street and only looking at the beautiful sky or only looking at the trees, the stars. Life is not only the sky, the stars, and the trees, but also the dirt, the squalor, the ugliness, the misery, the children that are starving, the tears and the laughter. The whole process is life. But the mind does not want to be sensitive to understand the whole process; it wants to pursue a particular pattern of thought. And the pursuit of a particular thought is considered noble, good, virtuous; that only leads to respectability, and the respectable mind will never find God. (Laughter) No, sirs, don't laugh! That is what we want. We want to be respectable because we all want to be consistent, and that very consistency gives us self-confidence, and where there is the strengthening of the self, there is respectability, whether through virtue or through denial of virtue.

So life is not merely the pursuit of the beautiful but also the comprehension of that which we call sin, ugly.

Let it Be

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #23
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Manna Martini wrote:
This is why understanding the mind, totally, is the most significant thing to happen in this world.

Provided that there is some space in that mind, however small it may be.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #24
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I am creating my thoughts and emotions? Is there a me separate from them?

Yes to both questions, at least one is absolutely free of the believe (conscious or unconscious) in that 'me' ...

Tom Paine wrote:
Would you have told that to the poor Jews who were thrown into death camps by Hitler's insane Nazis? Yes, little children were destroyed along with the millions of adults. Well society today is just as brutal and yes, ugly, as it was in the 1930's in Germany in many ways. Are you trying to say that it's NOT ugly?

What Mina is trying to say is that while we continue observing the world from duality ugly/beautiful there will continue existing Nazis/Anti-Nazis (using your example) and all the rest ... Mina is trying to say that in the observation of the world without labeling it ugly or beautiful there's the seeing of the real world ... That seeing brings about an action which is not in the field of "look how the world is, let's do something" ...

I understand the Mina's difficulty to share this feeling with another if the other in front is looking at the world through the duality of the beautiful/ugly labels ... That duality is the real and only prison that prevents world, with its pros and cons, to live a life without conflict.

Now, the person's in front next question will be: How can i look at the world without those two labels? ... And Mina's answer will be: i don't know but it is there somewhere, i only know that love exists only when this two labels are absent.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #25
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I hate cooking! But I'm OK with opening cans (salmon or sardines or pea soup). I'm not too shabby with the microwave either. :)

Sharing a big smile with you here :-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #26
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
The noise of the arriving truck forced me to interrupt this natural miracle

May i ask how is it that the arriving truck forced you to interrupt the miracle?
How is it that the miracle was unable to integrate it in the miracle itself?

One hour later: Which one was illusion, the miracle, the arriving truck, or both?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Wed, 27 Sep 2017.

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #27
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Mina is trying to say that in the observation of the world without labeling it ugly or beautiful there's the seeing of the real world ... That seeing brings about an action which is not in the field of "look how the world is, let's do something" ...

K. said that, in essense, as I understand him. I don't recall Mina saying that. She said 'life is beautiful', as I recall. That the ugliness is created by 'my' way of looking. Yet K was able to speak of the ugliness, right? The filth, the horrible poverty, tge misery, the squalor... the ugliness of life in the big city.

Let it Be

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #28
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine quoting K:
Life is not only the sky, the stars, and the trees, but also the dirt, the squalor, the ugliness, the misery, the children that are starving, the tears and the laughter. The whole process is life.

There's a misunderstanding of these words if one looks at them as if K were saying "there exists the beautiful, but also the ugly" ...

K here is simply saying "look at the world without the division of beautiful and ugly labels ... Just look at the world, nothing else! ... Don't judge, just look at it and you'll feel the love for it no matter how ugly or beautiful or whatever it may be".

And that is what Mina is trying to share!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Wed, 27 Sep 2017.

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #29
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1992 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

I am creating my thoughts and emotions? Is there a me separate from them?

Juan: Yes to both questions, at least(unless?) one is absolutely free of the believe (conscious or unconscious) in that 'me' ...

But you are giving life to the me by these words! Don't you see that?

Let it Be

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Wed, 27 Sep 2017 #30
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I don't recall Mina saying that. She said 'life is beautiful', as I recall.

We are caught in words, Tom ... Just look to what she's saying by going beyond the words, with your heart, and you'll find that she's trying to say the same ... We usually listen others through the words we have listen from others to describe the same thing, forgetting that each and everyone of us has its own way of expressing his/her feelings ... Listen/Look at with the full heart, that's what K said ... but we stopped in words, which prevents us from listen the words of the heart looking at the world.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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