Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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We are all fully responsible for one another and the state of the world that we create


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Tue, 22 Aug 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Thought is the experience of a subject and an objects, as well as of the division between the two. All this is born simultaneously by any reaction from thought.

Whatever thought understands, is based on its own structure.

With regards to this 18-year-old who killed two and injured another eight in Turku last Friday afternoon, the words "poor him" came from one/s lips.

Thought could only interpret this utterance as some kind of compassion that is extended to the deeds of violence, because it can only see 'what happened' and 'who did it', the subject and object...So it thinks you somehow accept that which it itself condemns, always without seeing the whole movement of itself...including all its movements, both accepting and condemning..

And it is seen that the foundation for these extreme deeds lie in each one, inseparably, for as long as we do not fundamentally and radically change through self-realisation in which this ground based on the distortion of division that has its origin on acting from image and not in love, collapses.

...

This terrorist attack, as it is now called, happened on Friday. Just a day before or two, I had passed by a man who was walking with his head bowed down, looking on the ground as he was walking. When feeling him, the words came: "Sorrow is the limited focus of thought."

The man was probably weighed down by worrysome thoughts, or lost in thought anyway...

Some people who had recognised the terrorist, had commented on his appearance with the words:

"He was always walking with his head down."

It is one sorrow..

...

Silent at the responsibility that we all carry for one another.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini (account deleted) Tue, 22 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 22 Aug 2017 #2
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Some people who had recognised the terrorist, had commented on his appearance with the words:

"He was always walking with his head down."

Nobody wants to look at the root ... more than anything because this would imply to look also at their own sorrow, frustrations, and so on ...

So, they look from that duality you mention, first because in doing so they avoid the next step, which is to observe themselves ("do i also go wolking with head down?"), and so their own wkrries, frustrations, and so on ... And second, because this allow them to continue their happy lifes full of fear, sorrow, and so on that they will NEVER acknowledge,

Nobody wants to look at the very root because nobody wants to look at oneself this days, and through it look at the world ... They all prefer lòok at the world as if it was one thing and them another ...

They share without pause thousand videos full of words that serve them to say "look how is the world!", but nothing else ...

Terrorist? ... What is terrorist?
Anybody wish to go and look at it from the very near as someone used to say?
I'm affraid no!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 23 Aug 2017 #3
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan E wrote:
Nobody wants to look at the root ... more than anything because this would imply to look also at their own sorrow, frustrations, and so on ...

So, they look from that duality you mention, first because in doing so they avoid the next step, which is to observe themselves ("do i also go wolking with head down?"), and so their own wkrries, frustrations, and so on ... And second, because this allow them to continue their happy lifes full of fear, sorrow, and so on that they will NEVER acknowledge,

Nobody wants to look at the very root because nobody wants to look at oneself this days, and through it look at the world ... They all prefer lòok at the world as if it was one thing and them another ...

They share without pause thousand videos full of words that serve them to say "look how is the world!", but nothing else ...

m: Yes, only nodding in silence to all that you say...

Juan:>Terrorist? ... What is terrorist?
Anybody wish to go and look at it from the very near as someone used to say?
I'm affraid no!

m: Right. The label 'terrorist' was used in my original post only with the intention to make a relative distinction between the two men described, walking with their heads down. No one is no label or definition, including that of a 'terrorist', in essence.

Labelling enables and creates the distance that you talk of, between oneself and the world. Only from this distance can one ever point to an imagined other, instead of looking into oneself first and last.

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Wed, 23 Aug 2017 #4
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3817 posts in this forum Offline

Yes to all the above.

There is no question that there is no conflict with the world when there is no conflict in oneself. (Ok, it is all one conflict really). But the world, already being in conflict with itself, can only propogate the conflict; and pass it on through education and upbringing to the next generation.

Truly the real issue is "stepping out of the world", out of the collective human consciousness.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Thu, 24 Aug 2017.

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Thu, 24 Aug 2017 #5
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Elwell wrote:
There is no question that there is no conflict with the world when there is no conflict in oneself. (Ok, it is all one conflict really). But the world, already being in conflict with itself, can only propogate the conflict; and pass it on through education and ubbringing to the next generation.

Truly the real issue is "stepping out of the world", out of the collective human consciousness.

Mina: For as long as the world as a creation of the mind exists for you, the 'stepping out' becomes another thing of the mind.

I would say that 'the real issue' is not stepping out of the world but to realise its illusory nature.

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Thu, 24 Aug 2017 #6
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3817 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Mina: For as long as the world as a creation of the mind exists for you, the 'stepping out' becomes another thing of the mind.

It is clear that if the mind tries to "step out" of the world, it is really stepping in. Or rather it is giving continuance to the world.

Mina Martini wrote:
I would say that 'the real issue' is not stepping out of the world but to realise its illusory nature.

Looking afresh at this, at what it means to step out of the world. Obviously it is not a 'positive act', a deliberate, chosen action. Obviously there is no "stepper - outer"

This morning the analogy of "painting oneself into a corner" came to the mind. That is, thought realising it has done this, and there is no way out of this corner for it, without contradiction. (that is, it cannot “step out”). How does the mind respond to discovering this is the situation? Or rather how does the mind respond when it realises all responses are ......... in contradiction, without meaning? I am not sure that I would use the word illusory, since illusion seems to refer to the content of the mind, rather than the movement of the mind.

But suddenly seeing that this distinction between content and movement may be false, it may be that the contents CREATE the illusion of movement. And this includes the illusion of stepping out, of there being something to step out of, the illusion there is something that needs to step out.

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #7
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Elwell wrote:
This morning the analogy of "painting oneself into a corner" came to the mind. That is, thought realising it has done this, and there is no way out of this corner for it, without contradiction. (that is, it cannot “step out”). How does the mind respond to discovering this is the situation? Or rather how does the mind respond when it realises all responses are ......... in contradiction, without meaning?

mina: Is the realisation that you talk of above, another tiny little subtle movement of the paintbrush, painting itself into existence? :-) If the mind is still existing to realise its own impossibility to do anything else but to continue itself, even that realisation does the same, but very subtly, I would say. If there is any sense of effort, of being at a dead end, of experiencing that there is nothing the mind can do, etc, the mind is still reacting to itself.

Can the mind/thought ever respond fully, not in a contradictory way? -I would say yes, but only through its own dissolution, negation, not by any reaction of its own which can only accumulate but never undo.

Clive: I am not sure that I would use the word illusory, since illusion seems to refer to the content of the mind, rather than the movement of the mind.

But suddenly seeing that this distinction between content and movement may be false, it may be that the contents CREATE the illusion of movement. And this includes the illusion of stepping out, of there being something to step out of, the illusion there is something that needs to step out.

Mina: Wonderful! Yes, the content and its movement are inseparable. The content, which always appears through the division between thinker and thought, moves in becoming, in the illusion of time. Its movement is therefore illusory, not based on anything real.

Yes, as duality is the nature of the movement of thought, both the idea of someone stepping out and the idea of a place from where to step out (you called it the collective human consiousness if I remember correctly), are created by any movement of this limitation.

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #8
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

..there is nothing real to step out from, and no one real to do so...there is no real individual/collective consciousness

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2040 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
..there is nothing real to step out from, and no one real to do so...there is no real individual/collective consciousness

Thank you Mina and Clive for the discussion today(posts 6,7,8)! Been seeing this as well. Nothing to add at the moment. Still in a bit of a fog from sleep, and having a cup of tea.

Let it Be

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #10
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
I would say that 'the real issue' is not stepping out of the world but to realise its illusory nature.

Perhaps you coul explain then in which way an illusory self/being can realize an illusory world? ... Or in other words, what comes first the egg or the chicken? ;-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #11
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
How does the mind respond to discovering this is the situation? Or rather how does the mind respond when it realises all responses are ......... in contradiction, without meaning?

If such a mind comes one day to actually discover/see what you say, such a mind will abide in emptyness ... I.E.: no conflict, no contradiction, no world to step-in or step-out, just emptyness of itself and of the world created by it ... At that moment such a mind has finally step-out of this world without performing any step-out because it has never been in this world.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #12
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Some minutes later...

Until then, such a mind is only digging more or less deeply into the reality created by itself, and so evolving within such created reality all the time...

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #13
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

And still some more minutes later...

Actual love lacks of a lover and of the object to be loved ...

Any other love is in the field of a mind-created dual reality

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #14
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 756 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Actual love lacks of a lover and of the object to be loved ..

Am I seeing this similar to you Juan, that at any moment one can ask oneself: "What am I lacking? What is it I want?" (speaking psychologically here not physically) That 'feeling' of lacking, that there is something 'missing' that I don't have...that 'feeling' of dissatisfaction, incompleteness, emptiness, etc.' either recognizes itself for what it is and abates, dies, or it leads again on to the endless 'searching' for whatever I imagine lies out there in 'time' for me to hopefully one day find.

Is it the feeling that there is something that I don't have, that is missing, that I need etc., is that what has to be seen and recognized as the habitual 'trigger' for the endless search?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 25 Aug 2017.

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Fri, 25 Aug 2017 #15
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Dan...

Your post made me think that perhaps i didn't expressed quite well what i tried to say, i don't know ... I translated almost literally from spanish this "lack", which i'm using as to say "is the absence of...".

Anyway ...

Dan McDermott wrote:
the endless 'searching' for whatever I imagine lies out there in 'time' for me to hopefully one day find.

We all are there until something pops up for wathever reason ...

Buddha, Jesus (if he existed), and many others including K, where there in that sense of incompleteness, because without that sense of incompleteness, that sense of lacking acting as the engine, the so called enlightment, or realization of the actual reality it seems to me, is absolutely not possible at all.

And if it is true that there is something "out there", it is not "for me to hopefully one day find" or at least that is how i feel it, it simply pops-up when one less expects it, or in other words: it simply finds you, not you find it ... But this sense of lacking, of incompleteness is necesary, and each one of us lives it within its own understanding ... None is neither 'guilty' nor 'wrong' to have this sense of incompleteness and the subsequent pursuit of what we are supposed to lack.

But all this are just my feelings and i could be mistaken, so do not pay me much attention, and of course i'm completely open to be questioned to investigate this together.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Sat, 26 Aug 2017 #16
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

m:I would say that 'the real issue' is not stepping out of the world but to realise its illusory nature.

juan:Perhaps you coul explain then in which way an illusory self/being can realize an illusory world? ... Or in other words, what comes first the egg or the chicken? ;-)

Mina: Exactly, neither comes first!! Or last!! The realisation that is free from the illusion is free from cause and effect.

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Sat, 26 Aug 2017 #17
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan E wrote:
If such a mind comes one day to actually discover/see what you say, such a mind will abide in emptyness ... I.E.: no conflict, no contradiction, no world to step-in or step-out, just emptyness of itself and of the world created by it ... At that moment such a mind has finally step-out of this world without performing any step-out because it has never been in this world.

mina: Beautiful, absolutely so!! Wonderful!! Love you!! (no subjects objects and the rest)..just love!

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