Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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To have and to be


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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 554 posts in this forum Offline

In the topic: 'Poetry and Literature '

Clive replied:
To have and to be are really the same movement, are they not?

I didn't want to transform that topic into a dialogue so started this one.

To me it is a great difference !!

Take for example Mr. Trump.
He has reached the presidency of the USA, he owns the seat, but is he the leader, does he act as such, is he serving the entire American people or seems it more like to continue his television performance from years ago, An ego trip ??.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3743 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
I didn't want to transform that topic into a dialogue so started this one.

I appreciate that Wim, I should have done it myself.

Wim Opdam wrote:
To me it is a great difference !!
(to have and to be)

If the mind, thought, me, considers that it "has" something, that it possesses it, then it must be identifying itself with that thing, no? And even Mr Trump does this. Whether that thing is a house, a bank account, a talent, a belief, a person (which is more complex). When we identify with something, we have invested ourselves in that something, have we not? This is what identification means. So we are identical with that thing, no? We ARE that thing. "Are" being part of the verb "to be")

I think I recently came across these words from K, although I cannot now find them when I search:

"The mind becomes what it possesses"

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Thu, 03 Aug 2017 #3
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 554 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I think I recently came across these words from K, although I cannot now find them when I search:

"The mind becomes what it possesses"

I see what you mean Clive, but that is not the essence the perfume of the poem I translated because it touched me.

You have poluted to be with time, with becoming and 'what is'* is being,
the activity of to be.
And to have has to do with becoming even in your example you speak of becoming.

Krishnaji denied his whole life that he was a world teacher and seeing the way he lived and talked he was. But by claiming he was he would make it in a possecion
a to have instead a to be. I say this without making him an authority
but a person who inspires one to look deeply into our own way of living.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 03 Aug 2017 #4
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 551 posts in this forum Offline

K: "I think it is important to understand that there is being, only when there is no longer the thinker, and it is only in being that there can be radical transformation."

Being, like love, cannot be captured, grasped, touched with words. What these are can not be conveyed to another. What these are is unsayable.

Like other things: qualia (the color red), experiencing, meaning , inteligence, nowness. No words apply. "The word is not the thing" These are not even things. They are more than internal as contrasted to external. Thought, memory, can be stored in the mater in the brain but also in a file cabinet, in words on a page or in a computer. Thinking, the experiencing of thinking, here even, the word is not the thing.

There is a seer which gives 'light' to all of these. It sees both the world outside and the happenings in the brain, all of it as outside. That seer has no attributes. It is what we are, empty, void of any characteristics. It has nothing.

He is Just exploring out loud. Even that.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Thu, 03 Aug 2017.

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Thu, 03 Aug 2017 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3743 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
You have poluted to be with time, with becoming and 'what is'* is being,
the activity of to be.
And to have has to do with becoming even in your example you speak of becoming.

I would agree, Wim, that the verb to be contains the element of time. The essence of time perhaps.

Is the word you need, as Peter suggested in his post, BEING? Being is always in the active present, is it not?

Sorry if I am just picking on words, I know it is a habit with me, but I do feel it has a certain importance, using the appropriate word.

There is an interesting term in Buddhism, which you probably know, TATHAGATA which is usually translated as ISNESS, or SUCHNESS, or THUSNESS

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Fri, 04 Aug 2017 #6
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 554 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Sorry if I am just picking on words, I know it is a habit with me, but I do feel it has a certain importance, using the appropriate word.

Clive,

I had to go in the semantic of yours and mine language to discover the misunderstanding.

First of all the 'active present' state of a verb is not used in our language.
Secondly for the verb 'to be' appears to be two words in our language;
one near the meaning of becoming and one the meaning of a state of being.

So it is proved that wording as a process of thought is a dangerous world
and lead us very easy to misunderstanding of the meaning.

P.S.: I didn't know of those words !! Thanks.

There is an interesting term in Buddhism, which you probably know, TATHAGATA which is usually translated as ISNESS, or SUCHNESS, or THUSNESS

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 04 Aug 2017.

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