Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Cause and Effect


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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #91
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
choice'

Re#89

If you think and feel you are the separate self then it is you the separate self who makes the choice.

At a relative level where choices seem to be real, who/what is it that chooses?

Your experience say the mind, because choises arises as a thought.

But the mind is made of Awareness/Consciousness.

So, then we can say awareness/consciousness “creates” the choice and the apparent chooser.

But, ultimately there is no choice and no chooser.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #92
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1826 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Yes Dan, but It is not necessary to end thought.

Let thoughts do there thing in the background whatever they are conditioned to do, it is just a pattern of thinking .

You don’t have to free yourself from your thoughts.

Treat them like you treat the sound of, for example, traffic.

Sure we can ignore the traffic noise...block it out....but the sound of the traffic is not telling the alcoholic that he needs another drink....or that he's not 'good' enough....not strong enough....that he's a failure..,a sinner. If there was a separate me who could ignore 'his' thoughts there'd be no obesity, alcoholism, smoking, war, crime, homelessness. The me IS his thinking....'the thinker is the thought'.

Let it Be

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #93
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1826 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
At a relative level where choices seem to be real, who/what is it that chooses?

Thought

Your experience say the mind, because choises arises as a thought.

But the mind is made of Awareness/Consciousness.

The mind as we use it in everyday living is made of thought...memory...ideas, principles, beliefs, ideals, knowledge, likes and dislikes and prejudices. Are those also awareness in your view? Was Hitler's belief in the master Aryan race a product of awareness?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 01 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #94
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The me IS his thinking....'the thinker is the thought'.

Re#92

(read you/anybody)

If you, the separate self, the alcoholic, think and feel you are that what/which is telling you that you need another drink then yes, you are the thinker/thought.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #95
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The mind as we use it in everyday living is made of thought...memory...ideas, principles, beliefs, ideals, knowledge,

Re#93

And where is thought...memory...ideas, principles, beliefs, ideals, knowledge, made of?

They must be made of something.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #96
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1826 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
And where is thought...memory...ideas, principles, beliefs, ideals, knowledge, made of?

They must be made of something.

Biochemical activity? Matter? I know...you're going to ask, what is matter made of :) Where is intelligence in all this activity of thinking...in violence...war? Or is intelligence outside the realm of matter? Outside the realm of thought?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #97
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
The separate self is not an entity it is an activity, so it is a choice that we make moment by moment.

Why do you insist that it is a 'choice', Olive? If it is an involuntary movement, if it is the result of conditioning, then it is not a choice, is it?

i cannot understand how the mind can be said to be choosing psychologically. If it could choose, it would choose to be happy rather than unhappy, choose not to suffer, rather that suffer. There would be no psychological problems. But clearly, looking how the world is, it is not capable of making such choices.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #98
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
And where is thought...memory...ideas, principles, beliefs, ideals, knowledge, made of?

They must be made of something.

if it is "made of something" it is made of electricity and chemicals.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #99
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:

Thoughts comes to you in the same way that the sound of traffic or the weather comes to you.

I agree that thought just arises in the brain, but it doesn't "come to ME". There is no me independent of thought for it to come to. Thought CREATES a me as it arises.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #100
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
IN K’s book: “FREEDOM IS THE FIRST STEP AND THE LAST STEP” he explaned that to be a separate self, is not a choice that you made in the past, it is a choice that we make moment by moment.

74

Oive, I think this is something that needs clearing up. You have said Krishnamurti talked of “choosing” (in a psychological sense) and you were asked to produce the quote, as I think non of us have ever heard K talk this way. I presume the book you have mentioned is actually called “The first step is the last step”?

In your post, it is not clear to me if you are quoting K, or they are all your own words, although I think the latter. Can you please clarify this, and can you give the exact quote from K about choice, or choosing?

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #101
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote, quoting K in #76:
The brain produces the
mind. Without the brain there is no
mind, but the mind is separate from
the brain. It is the child of the
brain

Huguette (good to see you back on the forum by the way), thank you for finding these qotations from K. But the part above does not clarify anything for me. The brain CREATES the mind, yet the mind is independent of the brain? How is that possible?

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #102
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
No but it sounds so 'right' doesn't it? Rumi said it. All these little silly 'I's part (unknowingly) of this one splendid 'I'?

By the way, the question was just factual, neutral, was not "trying to get at you", Dan.

That is certainly an interesting way of looking at the self, as a limited part of the greater self, the whole self. I have always resisted the idea, that one hears so much, of "Self" with a capital s, which I presume is the same. But there comes a time when prejudices must be dropped!

Where do you think such a concept/reality would fit into K's nomenclature? Would this be the Universal Mind of “The Ending of Time”?

So one could say (if one was fanciful) that the brain has somehow “trapped” a chunk of this Self, and has limited it, and this is the root of mankind's endless problems. I am remember in that book K suggests that “The brain could not contain that vast energy”, and that was the origin of all the mess.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #103
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I know...you're going to ask, what is matter made of :)

Re#96

No! my next question is much better Tom :D
Have scientists found the stuff they called matter jet??

Matter is a concept invented by the Greeks two and a half thousand years ago to account for that part of our experience that takes place outside mind.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #104
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
i cannot understand how the mind can be said to be choosing psychologically.

Re#97

Thought/mind is not generated by a separate self, it doesn’t belong to a separate self.

Thoughts comes to you in the same way that the sound of a voice/the weather comes to you.

After every thought comes to an end, thought creates, with the “I”-thought, the separate self.

The separate self claims to be this “I”-thought, the chooser/doer/thinker,experiencer.

So, the separate self is created moment by moment, and you(as the separate self) can therefore choose moment by moment to act or not to act on behalf of this separate self.

There is no separate self inside the mind or body that is arranging your experiences.

This is the first step of “Freedom is the first and the last step”

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #105
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I agree that thought just arises in the brain, but it doesn't "come to me"

Re#99

Thought is a modification of awareness/consciousness.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #106
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
quote

Re#100

K starts and ends his book with this title and is explaining what he means by it all through the book.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #107
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 348 posts in this forum Offline

re 101:

Huguette . wrote, quoting K in #76:

The brain produces the
mind. Without the brain there is no
mind, but the mind is separate from
the brain. It is the child of the
brain

Clive Elwell wrote:

Huguette (good to see you back on the forum by the way), thank you for finding these qotations from K. But the part above does not clarify anything for me. The brain CREATES the mind, yet the mind is independent of the brain? How is that possible?

Clive,

(Thanks.)

As I understand this, it is related to what was said in recent exchanges between Dan, Peter and me in this thread (#56, 62, 76, among others). Thought is a function of the brain, isn’t it? And thought is the root or building block of self, time, consciousness. Self, time, consciousness are what we normally think of as constituting the mind, no? ...Not the universal mind, not mind without the “the”, but the mundane, time-bound mind that deals with life.

It is in this way that the brain produces the mind, and that the mind then has a perceived independence or separateness from the brain, as I see it. Does this make sense?

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #108
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1826 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
So, the separate self is created moment by moment, and you(as the separate self) can therefore choose moment by moment to act or not to act on behalf of this separate self.

But we agree that thoughts arise of themselves. Why bring in choice again? That's another illusion of thought/time. Like the Catholic who thinks he can choose to NOT sin. There is no chooser but conditioned thought...the 'me'. You flatter me and I feel pride. You condemn my behavior and I feel shame. Is there any choice involved in these movements in consciousness..in ' me'? Can I choose to NOT have those feelings?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #109
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1826 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I presume the book you have mentioned is actually called “The first step is the last step”?

The book was called "The First and Last Freedom" if I recall correctly. Perhaps I will do a search of J Krishnamurti Online for the word 'choice'. I don't recall him ever using the word in the context Olive uses it. I once owned that book,btw....back in the 1970's. Don't recall any of it, however.

Here, I found an excerpt on 'choice':

"There must be direction in the field of knowledge. Agreed. Otherwise I couldn't get home, to the place I live. I would lose the capacity to drive a car, ride a cycle, speak a language, all the technological things necessary in life. There, direction, calculation, decision in that field is necessary. Choice is necessary between this and that. Here(in 'me'...the psychological field) where there is choice there is confusion, because there is no perception. Where there is perception there is no choice. Choice exists because the mind is confused between this and that. So, can a life be led without control, without will, without direction, that means time? And that is meditation. Not just a question, an interesting, perhaps, a stimulating question, but a question however stimulating has no meaning by itself. It has a meaning in living." 1974 dialog with Alan Anderson

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #110
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 708 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Like the Catholic who thinks he can choose to NOT sin.

Or those who believe a 'gay' person can 'choose' not to be gay...Rather than through "choice", I think that the 'I consciousness' comes to an end (if at all) through awareness of itself, a total awareness. And that comes about (if at all) through 'learning' without judgement, not 'ignoring' or escaping.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #111
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1826 posts in this forum Offline

K on 'choice' in 1948 in Bombay:

We talk of peace and our actions are for war; we think of freedom and our life is regimented; we seek creativeness and our mind is the result of imitation and habit; we are poor and seek riches; being violent, we pursue the ideal of nonviolence; we desire to be happy, and we do everything to bring about unhappiness.

Now, to choose one of the contradictions is to avoid action; choice at all times is a process of avoidance of action. Choice will not bring about integration, but only right thinking will. There can be no right thinking when there is contradiction. When we know how to think rightly, contradiction will cease. We will have to find out what is true thinking and not be caught in choice - choice between good and evil, peace and war, poverty and riches, regimentation and freedom.

As contradiction is the very nature of the self, which is the seat of desire, merely to choose one of the desires does not lead to understanding. Choice between the essential and the nonessential is still the outcome of desire. Choice is desire, and desire in its very nature is contradictory. So, choice only strengthens the self...

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #112
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Have scientists found the stuff they called matter jet??

Well yes, so I read. It was a very major discovery at CERN, fairly recently, not far from you, Olive :-). Of a fundamental particle called the Higgs Boson which apparently has the property of conferring the property of mass on all other particles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

you wrote:
"Matter is a concept invented by the Greeks two and a half thousand years ago to account for that part of our experience that takes place outside mind."

So you call matter a concept. Olive. On what basis do you dismiss its actual existence?

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #113
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Thought/mind is not generated by a separate self, it doesn’t belong to a separate self.

I agree, it is the other way round, the separate self is generated by thought.

Thoughts comes to you in the same way that the sound of a voice/the weather comes to you.

As I see it, they arise from common human consciousness.

After every thought comes to an end, thought creates, with the “I”-thought, the separate self.

I don't know about "AFTER". This is what thought is doing, it is one movement.

The separate self claims to be this “I”-thought, the chooser/doer/thinker,experiencer.

Well no, as I posted yesterday, the separate self seems always to be unaware of its true nature (as thought)

So, the separate self is created moment by moment, and you(as the separate self) can therefore choose moment by moment to act or not to act on behalf of this separate self.

But you are separating "YOU" from the separate self. Just how many selves are there, according to you, Olive?

You are saying above:

the separate self) can therefore choose (cut) to act on behalf of this separate self.

I cannot make sense of this sentence.

The separate self is a creation of thought. It is a conditioned movement. Part of that conditioning includes the illusion of choosing psychologically (and the actuality of choice in the material world) But it is precisely that, an illusion.

Are you saying that you can 'choose' not to exist?

There is no separate self inside the mind or body that is arranging your experiences.

I think that's right, although the statement needs examining. There is no "my experiences", there are only experiences. The separate self may and does identify with those experiences.

This is the first step of “Freedom is the first and the last step”

How can freedom have anything to do with choice? Psychologically choice is an illusion, and there is no freedom in illusion, is there?

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #114
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Re#100

K starts and ends his book with this title and is explaining what he means by it all through the book

I don't find this at all an adequate answer, Olive. I asked you to produce a single, referenced quote by K, saying that real choice, psychologically, is a possibility for the mind.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #115
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3555 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
It is in this way that the brain produces the mind, and that the mind then has a perceived independence or separateness from the brain, as I see it. Does this make sense?

Ah! So the important word here is "perceived", then? You are not saying that the mind is ACTUALLY independent.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #116
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1826 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
. I asked you to produce a single, referenced quote by K, saying that real choice, psychologically, is a possibility for the mind.

As K explains it, choice is division, choice is conflict, choice is the self. Perhaps Olive will explain if she understands the word differently. I'm wondering if there's a language barrier here.

Let it Be

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Thu, 03 Aug 2017 #117
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 708 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Along the lines of what Dan is saying, it seems clear that thought cannot be aware… thought being a function of the brain.

Isn’t asking if thought can be aware a bit like asking, “Can comparison be aware?” or “Can analysis be aware?”. Comparison, thought and analysis are functions of the brain. The brain compares, the brain thinks, the brain analyzes. Comparison, thought, analysis, etc., are things that the brain does. But can’t the brain be aware.... choicelessly? Can't the brain observe..... silently?

This is from the QOTD today and K. addresses this 'thought becoming aware of itself'. It makes it a bit clearer by using the word 'thinker' (though it's still just thought), that the 'thinker' must become 'aware' of his/her self. Become aware of its own 'thinking'.

K.- Only in bringing the thinker to an end is there creativeness. Perhaps you have experienced that while watching a sunset, when there is great beauty: the intensity of it drives the thinker away, and within that moment there is an extraordinary sense of joy. That creative moment brings revolution, which is a state of being. The thinker ceases, not as a result of transforming thoughts, but only by understanding the movements of the thinker and therefore coming to the central issue, the problem itself, which is the thinker. When the thinker is aware of his own movements, when the mind is aware of itself in action - which is not the thinker altering thoughts, but the thinker being aware of himself - , then you will find there comes a period when the mind is absolutely still, when it is meditative, when it is not attracted, not agitated. Then, in that moment, when the thinker is silent, there comes creative being which, if you will experiment, you will find is the foundation of all radical transformation.

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Thu, 03 Aug 2017 #118
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I agree that thought just arises in the brain, but it doesn't "come to ME". There is no me independent of thought for it to come to. Thought CREATES a me as it arises.

Re#99

Thoughts are a modulation of Awareness, they arises in/on awareness, and are made of awareness.

They appear in/on me, awareness.

Me, awareness, is not dependent on anything.

Thought creates a separate self, not infinite unlimited everpresent awareness/consciousness.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Thu, 03 Aug 2017 #119
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But we agree that thoughts arise of themselves.

Clive Elwell wrote:

Olive B wrote:

Thoughts comes to you in the same way that the sound of traffic or the weather comes to you.

Clive #99

I agree that thought just arises in the brain, but it doesn't "come to ME". There is no me independent of thought for it to come to. Thought CREATES a me as it arises.

Olive:

Thoughts are a modulation of Awareness, they arises in/on awareness, and are made of awareness.

They appear in/on me, awareness.

Me, awareness, is not dependent on anything.

Thought creates a separate self, not infinite unlimited everpresent awareness/consciousness.

Tom Paine wrote:
Can I choose to NOT have those feelings?

Moment by moment you choose to be the separate self or take your stand as the presence of awareness and think feel and act as that.

Remember the separate self is an activity, not an entity.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Thu, 03 Aug 2017 #120
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Higgs Boson

Re #112

I wouldn’t be so hasty

https://www.theguardian.com/science/life-and-ph...

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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