Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What can we do?


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Fri, 09 Jun 2017 #91
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 414 posts in this forum Offline

88:

Olive B wrote:
What should awareness record? Awareness doesn’t know objects.
Why should awareness record? Awareness has no motive to record.

I didn't say awareness records or has motive, Olive. I said awareness doesn't record and has no motive.

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Fri, 09 Jun 2017 #92
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Clive Elwell wrote:

Why? Why is it turned on?
You are turning it on because you as the separate self loves the drama, Clive.

Isn't that some phrase that you're just copying from someone else, Olive? Or is a direct perception of something you're seeing in yourself? Do I identify as a Christian or a Republican or a Jew because I love 'drama', or rather, because it gives me a feeling of belonging....of security? It makes me feel less of a 'nobody'? And also because it was brainwashed into me when I was a very young child? what about fear? Is that a result of being a 'drama queen'? The overweight child who fears being ridiculed by her classmates in school? I grew up knowing such a little girl who cried every day after school because of the ridicule....being laughed at for being 'fat'. The Black man who is lived in the South in the U.S. in the 1950's lived with great fear because of overt racism and brutality. Did he love the drama? What about pleasure seeking? That is self too, no? Is that drama? I pass by the window of a bakery and I get a craving for some sweets....cake, cookies. I go and buy some because the enjoyment of the sweets takes my mind off my worries or fears. Same with cigarettes or beer, of course. That's self in action, isn't it? Did you read Huguette's post #85...also #83... about this 'turning on', Olive? I quote: "But in the situations that trigger friction and effort by awakening an unpleasant or a pleasant connection to memory, conscious or unconscious, isn't that when self is put together?" Where is the drama when my childhood friend from the 1960's repressed his homosexuality because of fear? Eventually he told his father about it and his good Christian father almost literally beat him to death. Of course he had to repress his sexual feelings for the first 20 or so years of his life. That repression and the resulting conflict is what we are calling 'self' isn't it? Where is the drama in fear?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 09 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 09 Jun 2017 #93
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I didn't say awareness records or has motive, Olive. I said awareness doesn't record and has no motive.

I am sorry Huguette, I misunderstood you.

Will you please be so kind to explain again what you mean.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Fri, 09 Jun 2017 #94
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Re #92

Wauw Tom, nothing personal!

It is by definition that the separate self loves the drama!

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Fri, 09 Jun 2017 #95
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Wauw Tom, nothing personal

That's alright Olive....but it would be more helpful perhaps if you responded to what I wrote. I've seen too many people suffer needlessly because of psycho babble like you posted. Plus it's obvious that what you say is false... just observing what the self is. Desire and fear is drama? Why is it 'drama' to crave a piece of chocolate cake or a beer? The alcoholic is trying to DULL his emotions (drama?), his conflicts, not indulge in them. It make no sense what you wrote....plus it's demeaning to people who are depressed or frightened like the Blacks who were victims of insane racism that I spoke of....or the American Indians who suffered ...aND still suffer...with so much alcoholism and depression on the 'rez'.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 10 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 09 Jun 2017 #96
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
the separate self loves the drama!

Are you trying to point to emotion with the word 'drama'? The self doesn't love emotion however. That 'loves' is misleading. It implies that there's a separate self. The self IS emotion....and idea, knowledge(psychological), belief, conclusion, etc.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 09 Jun 2017.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #97
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3842 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Remembering that a food makes me sick does not trigger friction or effort. I just don't eat the food and that's the end of it, isn't it? Remembering the storefront doesn't trigger friction or effort - unless it is connected to a painful memory. The storefront is remembered and that's the end of it.

But in the situations that trigger friction and effort by awakening an unpleasant or a pleasant connection to memory, conscious or unconscious, isn't that when self is put together? Psychological hurt and pleasure are memory and time, they are based on memory stored in the brain, aren't they? The connection that is made to the past doesn't come from an attack on the kidneys or the big toe, or from a punch in the face.

Undoubtedly there exists a vast web, what is called a neural network, wich is our memories, our experiences. It works by association. And from that network reaction comes. Such reaction seems to be of two sorts. There is the useful, the appropriate memory – the telephone number I need, or where to find the telephone number, the address, putting a name on a face, ….. all the knowledge that is needed to live in this world, to stay alive, to meet one's needs. All useful and necessary stuff. Such 'triggering is orderly, no problem.

But then there is the psychological associations, the likes, dislikes, the feelings of hurt, anger, fear, that have been laid down in the brain, and are triggered whether we like it or not. I suppose ultimately these can be traced back to the existence of the self. And strong experiences seem to sear themselves deeply in the brain cells. Pleasure and pain are the the tools for this conditioning. Is it necessary or unnecessary? This seems a grey area, at least in some cases.

Looking at it, I would say such psychological triggering is not only useless but destructive. It clogs up our daily living. It absorbs our energy. And this is why I asked “why”. Why does it happen? Is it yet another example of the physical responses being carried over as the psychological? Or is it result of incomplete attention?

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #98
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3842 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
It occurs to me that it's also important for the mind (for us) to acknowledge, to be aware of, the pleasure, comfort and reassurance it gets from its incessant movements of effort, somewhat like it gets pleasure, comfort and reassurance from other painful habits, like picking at scabs for example.

Or like making cuts in ones skin with a rajor blade? This growing trend of self harm in young people is something I find it hard to understand

As I just mentioned in a previous post, I suppose the movement of effort is carried over from the physical, where it is useful and meaningfullto the psychological where it has no meaning - it just does not work.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #99
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3842 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
You are turning it on because you as the separate self loves the drama, Clive.

Looking at this answer, Olive. Not taking it personally :-). You are suggesting, I take it, that the mind 'needs', or wants, to be occupied all the time. So rather than face the perceived pain, discomfort of emptiness, nothingness, it fills itself up with memories, with reliving old experiences, is that it? This certainly seems plausible, and the theory seems to fit what is observed. Anything but face that emptiness!

But the mind, when it does this, is operating from fear. It is imaging what might happen, which is always the case with fear, isn't it?

It has been suggested several times on this forum that the mind, as the self, is continually avoiding its own death – death being its own non-action. The implication being that the self has no separate existence, independently of the movement and images of thought.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #100
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: So rather than face the perceived pain, discomfort of emptiness, nothingness, it fills itself up with memories, with reliving old experiences, is that it?

Is this theoretical or actual, I wonder. If you've ever had a moment where the mind is totally empty of thought, you'd see that there's nothing to fear there. I think perhaps the mind is simply afraid of its own projections...it's images of future hurt or suffering of some sort. This fear is very unpleasant and we avoid facing it by filling our lives with entertainment, sports, tv,music, food, drink, drugs, or escape into politics or social work or some other activity. Just exploring...I may be off base.

Let it Be

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #101
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Looking at it, I would say such psychological triggering is not only useless but destructive. It clogs up our daily living. It absorbs our energy. And this is why I asked “why”. Why does it happen? Is it yet another example of the physical responses being carried over as the psychological? Or is it result of incomplete attention?

Hi Clive,

Seeing that you are jealous is the truth ...... and to do something about it ......, or want to do ..... or do nothing about it ... is not that the truth of violence Do ??
Is it not enough to face this in all fairness ??
It's not acting but the reaction that leaves a member sign in the ego and that member signifies the pain, etc.

Clive Elwell wrote:
It has been suggested several times on this forum that the mind, as the self, is continually avoiding its own death – death being its own non-action.

the mind being occupied by the self does not see the difference between the image of the body and the image of the self !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #102
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So rather than face the perceived pain, discomfort of emptiness, nothingness, it fills itself

Thought/mind doesn’t know awareness, and can’t place what is happening when a thought, sensation or perception ends, and it certainly doesn’t want to die.

So, the mind immediately rises up again and creates a ‘filler’ thought.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #103
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The self IS emotion....and idea, knowledge(psychological), belief, conclusion, etc.

Re#96

Thought/mind/separate self shall, and will do anything to keep itself alive.

Awareness in the form of thought/mind arises.

Thought covers awareness with a label, not necessarily a negative label, thought doesn’t mind as long as it is alive.
For instance the label “another miserable day” or “It is going to be a nice day”.

In both cases before the labeling it is the same day, but thought makes you sad or happy.

To thought/mind it is just the same, sad or happy.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #104
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Thought/mind/separate self shall, and will do anything to keep itself alive.

Is there a motive there or is thought/self arising spontaneously in response to an external or interest stimulus? It appears that you're pointing to a motive.....the motive being to avoid emptiness..to avoid the unknown. I question that there is any motive involved. As I was trying to say in my post to Clive, thought creates fear, and then acts to remove or escape the fear through attachments which lead to more fear. No motive there...it's simply how thought functions. Just exploring...inquiring.

Awareness in the form of thought/mind arises.

Thought is a form of awareness? Can thought be aware?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 10 Jun 2017.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #105
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 414 posts in this forum Offline

97:

Clive Elwell wrote:
Looking at it, I would say such psychological triggering is not only useless but destructive. It clogs up our daily living. It absorbs our energy. And this is why I asked “why”. Why does it happen? Is it yet another example of the physical responses being carried over as the psychological? Or is it result of incomplete attention?

We have referred to the quote below a couple of times recently. Don't you find that it clarifies the question?

“The negation of thought is attention; as the negation of thought is love. If you are seeking the highest, you will not find it; it must come to you, if you are lucky – and luck is the open window of your heart, not of thought. ” [J. Krishnamurti The Only Revolution India Part 1]

And also this:

When you give complete attention there is no recording. It is only when there is inattention that you record. That is: you flatter me; I like it; the liking at that moment is inattention therefore recording takes place. But if when you flatter me I listen to it completely without any reaction, then there is no centre which records. [2nd Q&A meeting Saanen, 25th question, 24 JULY 1980]

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 10 Jun 2017.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #106
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is there a motive there or is thought/self arising spontaneously in response to an external or interest stimulus?

Re#104

Awareness is a vibration, thoughts arise in us, like the bubbles on the surface of a hot sauce
There is no motive for awareness.

Tom Paine wrote:
the motive being to avoid emptiness..to avoid the unknown.

Thought has a motive, it doesn’t know what is happening when a thought, sensation or perception ends, because thought/mind doesn’t know awareness.

So, the mind immediately rises up again and creates a ‘filler’ thought.

Tom Paine wrote:
thought creates fear, and then acts to remove or escape the fear through attachments which lead to more fear.

If we try to stop thoughts, there will be a rebellion inside us, it is uncomfortable.

And that keeps thought going.

Tom Paine wrote:
Thought is a form of awareness? Can thought be aware?

Thought is made out of awareness.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 #107
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Thought has a motive, it doesn’t know what is happening when a thought, sensation or perception ends,

True. Thought fears the unknown because it is trying to always maintain control. If thought does have a motive I would say it is to find security in a belief, ideal, idea (I am good...I will be rich, etc), a person, a god.

because thought/mind doesn’t know awareness.

No it doesn't. It's not interested in awareness, but in continuity...in gaining or becoming or avoiding.

So, the mind immediately rises up again and creates a ‘filler’ thought.

In order to maintain control of one's life....one's future...to avoid pain and gain pleasure...security.

Thought is made out of awareness.

Really? But you said, "thought/mind doesn’t know awareness". I thought that thought was made of memory. Where did you get this idea? Did you read it in a book or discover it for yourself? You don't have to answer.

Let it Be

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Sun, 11 Jun 2017 #108
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
It's not interested in awareness,

Re #107

Awareness has no objective qualities, so it is impossible for thought/mind to know awareness.

Tom Paine wrote:
Really? But you said, "thought/mind doesn’t know awareness". I thought that thought was made of memory.

Were is memory made out of?

Tom Paine wrote:
You don't have to answer.

You are funny, Tom!

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Sun, 11 Jun 2017 #109
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Were is memory made out of?

I'm assuming you meant 'what'? Memory is past experience. Awareness is not of the past....one can only be aware in the present. To say that 'thought is made out of awareness' makes no sense at all. Its made from past experience...memory. Once something has become memory, it's dead....awareness is living, right? One can be aware of thought of course, but they are not the same. K even maintained that thought was matter...chemicals reacting in the brain, perhaps. I'm no brain scientist, but awareness seems to clearly be beyond matter. An interesting topic for discussion, but off the topic of the thread I think.

Olive: Awareness has no objective qualities, so it is impossible for thought/mind to know awareness.

T: Yet we are speaking of it....

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 11 Jun 2017.

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Sun, 11 Jun 2017 #110
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

In case anyone wants to get back to the thread topic, 'What can we do?':

From the excerpt from today's QOTD:

" How can I discover anything of life if I do not know myself? And to know myself is an enormous task requiring constant observation, meditative awareness." K.

From Olive: "Whereas no effort is required at all to be present because it is what you are."

K said elsewhere that thought cannot solve our problems, yet in the excerpt today he speaks of "right thinking". 'What can we do' when we get caught up in the effort to 'do something'...thought attempting to get to the bottom of things? Anything we attempt to "do" comes from thought. So what does K mean by "right thinking"?

Here's more from the excerpt:

"Right thinking comes with self-knowledge. Without self-knowledge there is no right thinking. Without knowing yourself, what you think and what you feel cannot be true. The root of all understanding lies in understanding yourself. If you can find out what are the causes of your thought-feeling, and from that discovery know how to think-feel, then there is the beginning of understanding. Without knowing yourself, the accumulation of ideas, the acceptance of beliefs and theories have no basis. Without knowing yourself you will ever be caught in uncertainty, depending on moods, on circumstances. Without knowing yourself fully you cannot think rightly. "

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 11 Jun 2017.

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Sun, 11 Jun 2017 #111
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Memory is past experience.

Re #109

Yes, I saw this thing about memory coming...I don’t share the experience with K about what memory is.

To me memory is the current thought.

The past that memory seems to refer back to, exists only as a current thought or image.

Tom Paine wrote:
Yet we are speaking of it....

That’s why it is so hard to speak about it, to find the right words, because every word is not it.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Sun, 11 Jun 2017 #112
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
To me memory is the current thought.

Based upon past experience, obviously. No awareness present in the thought itself, as I see it, since it's 'looking backwards', thus not aware of the present moment....it's the past we're recalling...though I think you claimed that thought is made of awareness, which doesn't seem correct.

Let it Be

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Sun, 11 Jun 2017 #113
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Olive B wrote:

To me memory is the current thought.

Tom:Based upon past experience, obviously.

Re #112

Is memory to you also the current thought?

Tom Paine wrote:
not aware of the present moment....it's the past we're recalling...

The recalling of the experience or image is the current thought in the present moment.

When do you recall the past? In the present moment.
Try to recall in the past.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Sun, 11 Jun 2017 #114
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Is memory to you also the current thought?

Yes, it is that plus the stored memory in the brain.

Olive B wrote:
The recalling of the experience or image is the current thought in the present moment.

Of course....therefore one cannot see/discover anything new. When I observe you, I'm not aware of you as you ARE now, but rather I'm seeing you as you were! Same goes when I observe myself. I'm looking through the eyes of yesterday...or many yesterdays. This is a central tenet of K's teaching.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 11 Jun 2017.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #115
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3842 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
We have referred to the quote below a couple of times recently. Don't you find that it clarifies the question?

I'm sorry Huguette, nothing appears to sink in in this brain (except conditioning). It seems, as far as inquiry goes, I have to keep starting again. I can see that this might be tedious to others.

But one can see the danger of things "sinking in", I mean drawing conclusions from one's observation. Those conclusions are recycled as futures fragments of the self, the me. They become a stick with which to beat oneself. I am about to make a post which looks at this.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #116
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3842 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Clive: So rather than face the perceived pain, discomfort of emptiness, nothingness, it fills itself up with memories, with reliving old experiences, is that it?

Tom: Is this theoretical or actual, I wonder.

Do you mean by theoretical that the "perceived pain" is not real, it is only, always, imagined? I would say that this is the case. Fear is always fear of one's one's own projections, is it not? I mean psychological fear of course.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #117
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3842 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
To thought/mind it is just the same, sad or happy.

there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

. . . . WIlliam Shakespeare

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #118
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
stored memory in the brain.

Re #114

With this “stored in the brain” I think K was forgetting something.

This is almost a topic on it's own, but it is fine with me to go into this, and leave the thread “What can we do” to Clives new topic” What to do, when one sees that there is nothing to do?”.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #119
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
WIlliam Shakespeare

Yes Clive, that it right.

Talking about William Shakespeare

”Beauty brags but it is not she."

aaaah, shiver!

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #120
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
With this “stored in the brain” I think K was forgetting something.

Which is? Do you want to address any of the points I raised in 114? I think you're overlooking how memory creates the 'me' and 'you' in relationship....and the resulting conflicts.

Let it Be

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