Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

When there is attention, there is no centre

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Tue, 13 Jun 2017 #61
Thumb_stringio Heather Strong United States 15 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I recognize that my response is to some degree off topic...I'm responding to the previous message...I'm wondering if people can ever go forward when they are feeling like someone has hurt them? I'm new, so I don't know the dynamics of this group yet. I'm guessing that this person takes on different persona's? But I don't think the level of hurt here should just be ignored. Can you give feelings of hurt...hurt of this magnitude order to help this person to deal with the hurt and thereby find a center? or is the psychological damage so great the person can't heal? Choice...does he want to heal? Can he take the step to choose to work through the hurt...recognizing that the hurt is only there because of the image?

K: Could we go into the question, what is security? What does that word convey? Apart from physical security.

RS: I would have said invulnerability.

K: Not to be hurt.

RS: Not to be hurt at all, not to be able to be hurt.

K: Not to be able to be hurt and not to hurt. Physically we are all hurt, one way or another: operations and illness and so on, so on. When you talk about being hurt, are you talking about psychological hurts?

JH: Yes, I'm wondering how it is that when a person comes into my office, his complaint is his psychological hurts.

K: How do you deal with it?

JH: I try and...

K: Suppose I come to you. I am hurt from childhood.

JH: Yes.

K: I am hurt by the parents, school, college, university...

JH: Yes.

K: ...when I get married she says something, I am hurt. So this whole living process seems to be a series of hurts.

JH: It seems to build up a structure of self that is hurt, and a perception of reality that is inflicting hurt.

K: Yes. How do you deal with it?

JH: I try to help you see how you're doing it.

K: What do you mean, how I'm doing it?

JH: Well, for example, if you have built up in you the notion that you're one down; or that you're the victim. Then you perceive yourself to be victimised and you perceive the world to be a victimiser. And I help you realise that that's what you're doing.

K: But by showing me that, will I get rid of my hurt? My hurts, very deep unconscious hurts that I have, that make me do all kinds of peculiar actions, neurotic, and isolating myself.

JH: Yes. It appears that people get better, that they realise that they are doing it. And in some local area it seems to help.

K: No, but aren't you concerned, if I may ask, with not being able to hurt at all?

JH: Yes.

DB: What do you mean by that, not hurting somebody else or not hurting inside of you.

K: I may hurt others unconsciously, unwillingly, but I wouldn't hurt voluntarily somebody.

DB: Yes, you really don't intend to hurt anybody.

K: Yes. I wouldn't.

RS: Well, maybe not, but I don't see the connection between not hurting other people and not being hurt oneself. At least I'm sure there must be one, but it's not obvious. And most people's view of the best way not to be hurt would be to be in such a position that you can hurt others so much they'd never dare. This is the principle of nuclear retaliation and this is a very common principle.

K: Yes, of course.

RS: So it's not obvious that not hurting others is related to not being hurt oneself. In fact, usually it's taken to be the reverse. It's usually assumed that if you're in a position to hurt others very much you'll be very secure.

K: Of course, I mean if you're a king or a sannyasi or one of those people who have built a wall round themselves...

RS: Yes.

K: ...naturally you can never hurt them.

RS: Yes.

K: But when they were children they were hurt.

RS: Yes.

K: That hurt remains. It may remain superficially or in the deep recesses of one's own mind. Now, how do you, as a psychologist, psychotherapist, help another who is deeply hurt and is unaware of it and to see if it is possible not to be hurt at all?

JH: I don't address the question about is it possible to not be hurt at all. That doesn't come up.

K: Why? Wouldn't that be a reasonable question?

JH: Well, it seems to be what we are asking here. It is the essence of the question that we're asking. We ask it in terms of particulars only in therapy, and you're asking it more generally, is it possible to end this hurt, period. Not just a particular hurt that I happen to have.

K: So how should we proceed?

JH: Well, it would seem that the structure that makes hurt possible is what we have to get at. What makes hurt possible in the first place, not this hurt or that hurt.

K: I think that's fairly simple. Why am I hurt? Because you say something to me which is not pleasant.

JH: Well, why should that hurt you?

K: Because I have an image about myself as being a great man. You come along and tell me, don't be an ass. And I get hurt.

JH: What is it that's being hurt there?

K: There, the image which I have about myself. I am a great cook, a great scientist, a great carpenter, whatever you will. I have got that picture in myself and you come along and put a pin into it. And that gets hurt. The image gets hurt. The image is me.

DB: I feel that that will not be totally clear to many people. I mean, how can I be an image, you see, many people will ask. You see, how can an image get hurt, because if an image is nothing at all, why does it hurt?

K: Because I have invested into that image a lot of feeling.

DB: Yes.

K: A lot of ideas, emotions, reactions, all that is me, that is my image.

JH: It doesn't look like an image to me, though, it looks like something real.

K: Ah, of course, for most people it's very real. But that is me, the reality of that image is me.

JH: Yes. Well, can we get clear that it's an image and not real?

K: Image is never real; symbol is never real.

JH: You're saying that I'm just a symbol.

K: Perhaps. (laughter)

There's more of course...

This post was last updated by Heather Strong (account deleted) Tue, 13 Jun 2017.

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Wed, 14 Jun 2017 #62
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Heather Strong wrote:
I'm guessing that this person takes on different persona's?

Are you talking about me? Just a wild guess.

Heather Strong wrote:
in order to help this person to deal with the hurt and thereby find a center?

What person are you talking about?

Heather, Who is this person you are talking about? Someone who has interupted the forum?

What you are trying to say is common in psychotherapy, it usually involves extreme narcisism.

Which is also common....

Sounds like this is Clive's alter ego...

BTW have you ever listened to Trisha Yearwood? You sound like her...

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Wed, 14 Jun 2017 #63
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Heather Strong wrote:
I'm wondering if people can ever go forward when they are feeling like someone has hurt them?

Trisha Yearwood has written alot of songs about this very thing. Im not being sarcastic. If you honestly feel what you said you probably would find good solice in Trisha's music..

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Wed, 14 Jun 2017 #64
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5683 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
Sounds like this is Clive's alter ego...

You are pushing the limits here, Link. As you know from when I joined you up, there is one understanding -rule if you like- about participation, no personal comments, no image forming of others on the forum. You can question what they say, you can look at their words.

Personal innuendos and the like, add nothing to discussion, they do not help the inquiry into what is true, and this is what the forum is about. They just bring about a bad atmosphere, and may induce fear among participants.

So it is up to you, accept the ground rule, or don't participate.

Clive, as moderator.

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