Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

for Dan


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Sun, 07 May 2017 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3234 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, I glanced rather briefly at your last post on the forum this morning, sat down in the evening to give it some attention and perhaps reply, and discovered it had disappeared.

This is certainly not the first time I have seen posts from you disappear. Wondering why that is? With this last post, if you won't reconsider re-posting it, would you mind sending it to me privately, so I can at least read it fully?

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Sun, 07 May 2017 #2
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 567 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Clive

For me, posting is a kind of exercise to see if I can put down what it was that had been seen. If there is a response, that's fine, if not I like to delete it and move on. A couple of things have come up this morning for me that were interesting. You know the phrase "cogito ergo sum", (I think therefore I am). Well regarding your question of the persistence of self, the obverse, non cogito ergo non sum (?) would imply that without thought, 'I' don't exist. So in that sense, thought IS 'self'. And this morning the phrase occurred to me that 'self' is a kind of 'dream' of the brain/mind...in a similar way that we feel when asleep and dreaming that what is going on is very real. As we do here in the waking state feel that this is all very real etc. What K. and others are pointing at rather intensely I think, is that there is beyond this "enclosure" of the 'dream' of the self, of the 'me', another 'state' where love, compassion and peace is found. But for that to be, the 'self' must dissolve, 'thought' must become silent...similar perhaps to the way the dream state of sleep dissolves effortlessly upon awakening.

And to push the 'dream' analogy a bit further, for me a lot of my dreams have a certain amount of anxiety as well as fear in some instances. It can be quite overt. In this waking state, it is not so overt but always there it seems, in the background (K.:"thought is fear"). Jan Kasol has written about this 'fear' extensively on the other forum.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 07 May 2017.

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Sun, 07 May 2017 #3
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3234 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
If there is a response, that's fine, if not I like to delete it and move on

Trouble is, I am in NZ, a very different time zone from most, and so there is always a delay in my reading the posts. So if I am not quick, I sometimes miss yours :-)

Dan McDermott wrote:
"cogito ergo sum", (I think therefore I am)

So we meet problem I mentioned above, the meaning put on the word "I". Interesting, is it not, that to simply say "I think" is untrue. Better to say "thinking thinks me". But yes, as things are, thinking gives the impression of an existence of a me, and I AM that me, not separate from it.

But the thinking process, as it is now, is conflict ridden, contradictory, very limited, enclosed within itself, "imprisoned by its own projections" (K), and it seems very natural to inquire if there is a reality beyond thought. But then one meets the question if thought CAN inquire into what it outside of itself?

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Sun, 07 May 2017.

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Mon, 08 May 2017 #4
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 567 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But then one meets the question if thought CAN inquire into what is outside of itself?

I don't think so. 'Thought' needs to be silent. Otherwise it will keep on 'searching' for answers. Thought has a place but not in the psychological, the psychological is the immediate present. Thought is the 'past'. It is 'accumulative'. Accumulation is not life, not living. 'Thought', 'self', 'ego' accumulates to protect itself against what it perceives to be the 'other'. But there is no 'other'. The perceived 'other' is the problem isn't it, that which we must defend against, compete against. So...can thought be silent and not intrude in the psychological realm, not create the 'other' that it then must protect itself from?

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Tue, 09 May 2017 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3234 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So...can thought be silent and not intrude in the psychological realm, not create the 'other' that it then must protect itself from?

So, wondering, is the self only separate from its own self-projections?

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Sat, 13 May 2017 #6
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 567 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So, wondering, is the self only separate from its own self-projections?

I don't understand your question. The 'self' by its existence separates itself from everything. (Though nothing can really be 'separate'). By trying to create and maintain itself as distinct, all it manages to do is to cut itself off from life, from living. Until the futility of its action, not to mention the isolation, is perceived as it operates in the moment, can it dissolve. It is unable, being the 'past' to move with the flame of Creation in us. It wants to grasp the ungraspable thinking that that's what life is: 'accumulation', but life is endless movement. When it sees itself totally in the mirror of Perception, sees that its trying to grasp the present is impossible, that its projection of a psychological 'future' is simply an illusion, it can become quiet.

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Sat, 13 May 2017 #7
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3234 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
When [ the self] sees itself totally in the mirror of Perception, sees that its trying to grasp the present is impossible, that its projection of a psychological 'future' is simply an illusion, it can become quiet.

Yes Dan. I won't persue the question I asked, it now seems only tangential to the main issue, the main thrust, I do not think it will lead anywhere useful.

Instead I think I will start a new thread

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