Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Why does the self persist?


Displaying posts 211 - 240 of 280 in total
Tue, 09 May 2017 #211
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
"I am this", I am anything, is just a myth, is it not?

Theoretically yes, but not an actuality!

Clive Elwell wrote:
I do not understand why the self and becoming cannot be seem just as the two sides of the same coin.

Because becoming is what gives birth to the self, that's all
There's no self without becoming!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 09 May 2017 #212
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1887 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:

Huguette . wrote:

But surely it does happen sometimes that one engages in an activity such as preparing one's tax return and one is engrossed in it, without existential questions popping up.

Yes, it is fairly simple to get engrossed in an activity, to "loose oneself" in something. I wonder if this is the great attraction of entertainment, and why it is expanding so much?

Sports is a perfect example. But the self is there beneath the surface, isn't it? I'm skiing...engrossed in the activity, but as soon as I'm done and I'm back home, the problems with my spouse, or with money return. Or I may fantasize about being a great Olympic skier, then get depressed when I realize I'll never be good enough to make the Olympic team. So the 'me' lives even when we're active, I think. Only it's temporarily dormant.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 09 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #213
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 366 posts in this forum Offline

re 212:

But the self is not static, continuous, is it? So can one say it's dormant? It's reassembled and given continuity by thought, no?

And life makes demands which I take care of. I don't have to prepare my tax return or meals, but I do. Doing what needs to be done is not an escape, is it?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #214
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 366 posts in this forum Offline

re 210:

Clive Elwell wrote:
Although she recognises that tremendous human suffering in the world, the chaos of relationship, the sadness of life as we live it, she points out, quite correctly, that this is not the whole picture.

And indeed, being with her is the very proof of that.

:-)

Of course. We're not just robots, nor do we desire to "become" robotic. Being very simple about it, we can love someone's company without being greedy or ambitious about it, no? Attention may reveal what is really going on.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #215
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 366 posts in this forum Offline

re 212:

Tom Paine wrote:
... as soon as I'm done and I'm back home, the problems with my spouse, or with money return. Or I may fantasize about being a great Olympic skier, then get depressed ..."

That's how I see it. That's what I meant when I said earlier that when hurt, fear, anger, arise, the thinking, explaining, blaming, etc., about it IS self.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #216
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But the self is not static, continuous, is it? So can one say it's dormant? It's reassembled and given continuity by thought, no?

There's a constant becoming, and therefore a self (which is the reason for that becoming) all the time ... Even when being asleep ... To think that this self can be dormant and so be awaken/reassembled by thought to continue is merely an illusion of a self thinking that sometimes it is not becoming, while others it is.

Tom Paine wrote:
I'm skiing...engrossed in the activity, but as soon as I'm done and I'm back home, the problems with my spouse, or with money return. Or I may fantasize about being a great Olympic skier, then get depressed when I realize I'll never be good enough to make the Olympic team.

Yes, becoming all the time something that i'm not!

Tom Paine wrote:
So the 'me' lives even when we're active, I think. Only it's temporarily dormant.

There's not such a thing as a 'me' temporarily dormant ... but perhaps you'll like to put an example to show me that i'm wrong.

Huguette . wrote:
when hurt, fear, anger, arise, the thinking, explaining, blaming, etc., about it IS self.

Hurt is self, fear is self, anger is self, thinking is self, explaining is self, blaming is self ... just because there's that constant becoming ... No becoming = no hurt, no fear, no anger, no thinking, no explaining, no blaming ... no nothing, that it is what we are.

Why that fear to be what we actually are (i.e.: nothing)?

Why that constant becoming that is at the root of that fear which is the only cause for all our hurts, fears, angers, thinkings, explanings, blamings, and so on in which we have turned all our lives?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #217
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 532 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
There's a constant becoming, and therefore a self (which is the reason for that becoming) all the time ...

Hi Juan,

Our whole being is in constant movement and yes there is also a self, but only when one interfere with this movement there is the split and duality is born.
For nothing there is no reason !!, reason is what we are In vain looking for ...

I would say: ( which is the object for that becoming ) all the time ...

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #218
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1887 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But the self is not static, continuous, is it? So can one say it's dormant? It's reassembled and given continuity by thought, no?

However the conditioning of the brain is there even when skiing or cooking a meal. It lies dormant until someone insults my religion or my country or hurts my self-image. There is great joy in my golf game one day, but when it rains nextvweek, and my game is canceled, there may be depression or anger.

Huguette . wrote:
And life makes demands which I take care of. I don't have to prepare my tax return or meals, but I do. Doing what needs to be done is not an escape, is it?

Right, but even while cooking my mind may wander off into thinking of some strong attachment or some hurt that happened in the past.

Let it Be

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #219
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 366 posts in this forum Offline

In the moment that suffering arises, what do we do in THIS moment? We face it or we escape from it. We can't face or escape fear when there's no suffering, except hypothetically through memory/thought, so hypothetically facing fear is not facing fear.

What do we do about suffering in a moment when there's no fear or anger, when skiing or cooking a meal? Nothing.

Of course, the entire contents of the past, the whole of consciousness, including fear and anger, it's all always THERE in the brain cells. But fear and pain are not on the surface of consciousness at each moment. I'm saying (right or wrong) that it is in the moment of strong emotion that self arises and it arises because of the effort to "deal with it". Thought identifying it, connecting the past to the present, trying to do something about hurt is what puts self together. The hurt has its roots in the past, the hurt is part of consciousness, but the hurt, fear, or anger, itself is not self; facing it directly without thought intervening does not give rise to self. So what we do in that moment is important.

It's like with any habit - drugs, nail-biting, responding to my own anger. When, for whatever reason, I'm not in its clutches, when I don't feel the urge, I can't either face it directly (i.e. negative action) or "deal with it" (positive action) THEN.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #220
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1887 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
but the hurt, fear, or anger, itself is not self; facing it directly without thought intervening does not give rise to self. So what we do in that moment is important.

Thanks for clarifying. I understand what you're getting at. The fear or anger is there as a fact, now(when it is present). My condemnation or justification or analyzing or explaining of the anger ...my ideas about the anger...is self.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #221
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1887 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I'm saying (right or wrong) that it is in the moment of strong emotion that self arises and it arises because of the effort to "deal with it".

Self is present when I'm seeking pleasure and fulfillment too....fulfillment for me....isn't it? Desire is self isn't it?

Let it Be

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #222
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 725 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Desire is self isn't it?

'Desire' is interesting. It seems like it is the force of all creation. It is in every living, growing cell. Psychologically though, it becomes 'perverted' when it 'wishes' for something other than 'what is'. Is it because the brain is unaware that the 'observer is the observed', that desire (self) arises to act positively or negatively on 'what is? Its action is the source of conflict by wanting to change or to 'keep' something. It 'chooses' rather than being 'choiceless'. 'Pure' desire has no object except to 'see' what is there. Wanting to understand thought, or the 'self', becomes polluted when there is a goal such as the 'ending of sorrow', the 'ending of fear', 'freedom from the known'. When these concepts and any goal (however subtle) are behind the desire to know oneself, desire becomes a form of greed or 'becoming'.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #223
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1887 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Desire' is interesting. It seems like it is the force of all creation. It is in every living, growing cell.

Does a tree feel desire...a mouse or butterfly? Is there desire without thought? I'm not sure that there is. Desire in man seems to lead to suffering as you yourself said in different words.

Let it Be

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #224
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 725 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Does a tree feel desire...a mouse or butterfly? Is there desire without thought?

I think of it as the 'force' of creation. I don't think "feel" is the right word ...more as in the leaf 'desires' sunlight, the roots water... More in that sense of seeking to grow, to be nourished, to be healthy, sex, reproduction. In us we 'desire' food, shelter, clothing i.e. healthy desire. When it 'spills over' into the psychological it can become unhealthy, destructive as we see.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #225
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There is great joy in my golf game one day, but when it rains nextvweek, and my game is canceled, there may be depression or anger.

If you don't mind i would like to know what makes you think that the self is dormant while "there's a great joy in my golf game", or while skiing or cooking a meal ... because to me to think that it is so is the greatest of all illusions (sorry to say that)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #226
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1887 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
If you don't mind i would like to know what makes you think that the self is dormant while "there's a great joy in my golf game", or while skiing or cooking a meal ... because to me to think that it is so is the greatest of all illusions (sorry to say that)

Why be sorry? You have no need to apologize if what you point out is a fact. Not sure it is, however. I should talk about music perhaps because I'm much more of a musician than a skier or athlete. Are you saying that the self is active when I'm lost in a musical improvision? I occasionally play jazz guitar. I say, no. When I'm totally lost in the music that I'm playing, the self is temporarily on vacation...dormant. I suspect the same could have been said by Mozart or Bach. Not comparing myself to them of course.

Let it Be

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #227
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 366 posts in this forum Offline

re 221:

Tom Paine wrote:
Self is present when I'm seeking pleasure and fulfillment too....fulfillment for me....isn't it? Desire is self isn't it?

I do see desire arising as an indication of self. “I” want the thing. “I” imagine myself having it and "I" think life will be great when I get it.

I want to become something - a capitalist, famous, intelligent - or to have something - a car, respect, recognition. Isn’t it also important to face the moment where desire arises? When I obtain my heart’s desire, there’s great pleasure. And when desire is thwarted, then the hurt comes, doesn't it?

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #228
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Does a tree feel desire...a mouse or butterfly? Is there desire without thought?

Well, you could ask my cat when he insistently asks me for special food (those little food cans for cats) when i come back home after my work, just seven hours or so after i gave him one of those little cans, he still having that kind of grain for cats in a another bowl ... You could ask him while he devours the new food (as if he had not eaten in a week), if he has no desire ... And then we can talk about if there's no desire without thought ... ... ... ... or is it that animals think too? ;-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #229
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1887 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
And then we can talk about if there's no desire without thought ... ... ... ... or is it that animals think too? ;-)

If they do experience desire, it's due to memory, I'm assuming. And that might be a primitave form of thinking. But does your cat have a self image....a self? I would not think so. Does the cat think, 'I really should not eat so much....I must control myself'? ;) My sister's cat used to attack her own tail not even realizing it was part of herself!

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #230
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 725 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
. Isn’t it also important to face the moment where desire arises?

Especially perhaps in 'meditation' where the meditator is not separate from the meditation but then subtly (cunningly) there is the split and the meditator is there looking for (desiring) a result, a reward...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 10 May 2017.

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Thu, 11 May 2017 #231
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So the 'me' lives even when we're active, I think. Only it's temporarily dormant.

I think you are right Tom. Even if the self is not fully active, it is always there just below the surface, so to speak, suspicious, aways ready to react, to defend itself. it is there potentially.

Thinking of an analogy of some cats I have known. While they are being stroked, petted, they relax, purring with pleasure. But the moment one stops, or the touching is not to their satisfaction, they are ready to lash out.

However, the issue of whether the self is continous is still a question with me. Remembering the quote that was given recently:

"Each experience has its own experiencer"

So is the self an entity or a movement? Perhaps an habitual movement will give the impression of an entity (like a whirlpool moving down a river).

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Thu, 11 May 2017.

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Thu, 11 May 2017 #232
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Why that fear to be what we actually are (i.e.: nothing)?

It seems to be a characteristic of all life, all living things, that they cling to living, that they intrinsically want to continue living, to stay alive. While the self is not a living thing, it thinks it is, it acts on the assumption that it is.

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Thu, 11 May 2017 #233
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
If you don't mind i would like to know what makes you think that the self is dormant while "there's a great joy in my golf game", or while skiing or cooking a meal ... because to me to think that it is so is the greatest of all illusions (sorry to say that)

Do you not accept, Juan, that 'below' the movement of the conscious mind, below the thoughts and feelings we may be aware of, there is a whole of subconscious or unconscious movement going on, which may be driving the conscious mind?

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Thu, 11 May 2017 #234
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Cutting out the reference to reality, K said, as I quoted above:

“ Surely freedom from the self …. is the true function of man? “

I feel there is something in this statement/question that is eluding me, and I don't know how to probe into it.

Of course, at a practical, immediate level, there is no doubt that the self, the me, is the fundamental problems that we humans need to solve. Urgently. But is there a far vaster, deeper dimension to the issue?

Does it suggest that mankind evolved in order to perform a function of becoming free of the self? . . . . but that presupposes that the self already existed before man started to evolve into this possibility of freedom. That seems almost paradoxical.Does not the statement contradict the idea, that was at least floated in “The Ending of Time” dialogues, that the self, the me, was some sort of mistake that happened when the cortex started its development.?

Let me be completely fanciful and probably ridiculous for a moment. Could the self be some sort hitch that developed in,(or has always been a part of), Universal Consciousness. And we, human consciousness, are the Universal Consciousness's response to the problem? The attempt to solve the problem?

Sorry! Sounds like something from “The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy” :-)

But I can't dismiss the idea. Would be grateful for any input.

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Thu, 11 May 2017 #235
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are you saying that the self is active when I'm lost in a musical improvision? I occasionally play jazz guitar. I say, no. When I'm totally lost in the music that I'm playing, the self is temporarily on vacation...dormant.

I understand ... You think it's dormant just because it does not manifest as conflict, that's why you say that is not active while enjoying playing music ... But perhaps it is because you're completely lost in the music that you're playing that you have lost your attention in the activities of the self while enjoying things, and not only when it manifest itself as conflict ...

Seeing the self as dormant while enjoying things is an illusion that inevitably will be the cause of a future conflict ... an illusion that makes us to act upon that self when it brings us conflict, and to become friends of it when it brings us pleasure and enjoyment

And we are still asking why does the self persist!!!

BTW, i'm also a musician :-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Thu, 11 May 2017 #236
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
is there a far vaster, deeper dimension to the issue?

Yes Clive,
It is that what is everpresent, our true nature(function) is infinite limitless everpresent awareness/consciousness.

It doesn’t come and go, appear and disappear, grow old and die like the separate self.

It doesn’t need to evolve because it IS.

The separate self can evolve but from the point of awareness there is no evolution.

Clive Elwell wrote:
I don't know how to probe into it.

By exploring the separate self.

And don’t prevent that by convincing yourself interllectuelly there is nobody to explore, because that is a superimposed non-dual belief.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Thu, 11 May 2017 #237
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1887 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
You think it's dormant just because it does not manifest as conflict, that's why you say that is not active while enjoying playing music ... But perhaps it is because you're completely lost in the music that you're playing that you have lost your attention in the activities of the self while enjoying things, and not only when it manifest itself as conflict ...

Seeing the self as dormant while enjoying things is an illusion that inevitably will be the cause of a future conflict ...

There's some confusion I think. By dormant, I mean that the self exists, but it is not actively in control. For a moment we totally lose ourselves in joy...in creativity...in being 'one with' the ocean wave when we’re surfing. I was speaking about moments when there's momentarily a loss of time...when one is totally in the 'now'. Some great athletes have spoke of this....musicians too I think. At least this musician has :) It's not really important....the important issue is that the self is, most of the time, in control....and man continues to live in conflict and misery. Look at N. Korea....the Middle East...Africa....my own neighborhood, with the alcoholics and drug addicts and street crime. And the average upstanding citizens as well....like those who voted in Trump....who are opposed to universal health care. I'm not separating myself as somehow superior from any of these.

Let it Be

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Fri, 12 May 2017 #238
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:

Clive Elwell wrote:

is there a far vaster, deeper dimension to the issue?

Yes Clive,
It is that what is everpresent, our true nature(function) is infinite limitless everpresent awareness/consciousness.

C: What I was asking was is there a deeper aspect to this problem of the human self.

It doesn’t come and go, appear and disappear, grow old and die like the separate self.

C: I question this, Olive. Does the self come and go, does it grow old and die? The body grows old and dies, of course, but does the self, the me, the ego?

It doesn’t need to evolve because it IS. The separate self can evolve but from the point of awareness there is no evolution.

C: Again, I question this. Does the self/me/ego evolve? I see no evidence that it does.

It seems to have been a constant factor in the human race for time immemorial.

I am feeling that there is a misconception about the me. It is generally considered that we all have separate selfs – my self, your self, the other's self. But is this the case? Or is there only one self, the common human self, arising from the common human consciousness?

Is not the movement of the self that manifests in you (assuming that it does) the same movement that arises in me? So that, in fact, the very terms “you” and “me” are questionable.

Clive Elwell had written: I don't know how to probe into it.

By exploring the separate self.

C: Of course one needs to do that. But I was asking about exploring this question if the self/me is not ultimately, primarily, a problem in the Universal Consciousness, rather than the particular human consciousness. And that human consciousness is the the Universe's attempt to solve that problem.

And don’t prevent that by convincing yourself interllectuelly there is nobody to explore, because that is a superimposed non-dual belief.

I would say there is only the exploration, not the explorer. The moment the explorer enters, then there is accumulation of what is being explored (as knowledge), and that is the end of exploration.

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Fri, 12 May 2017 #239
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 725 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I would say there is only the exploration, not the explorer.

'Exploration without the explorer' so that everything is seen through fresh eyes...The model that I see, and it is only that, is that what we, you, are,is pure 'being'. The 'self' or the 'me' has been created by the brain for whatever reason. It is of course limited in each of us by our experiences, knowledge etc. The 'self' through its 'fear' of 'not being' denies and obscures what we are in fact, pure 'being'. This we cannot 'grasp' because we are it. We cannot 'experience' it, because we are it. Man's sorrow lies here. He struggles to be what he already is. He struggles to be an 'image' of what he 'thinks' he is. He 'accumulates' for security when the 'only' security lies in being 'no-thing'. He wants to 'taste' the 'timeless' but he lives, trapped in 'time', in 'desire', in becoming...fear of being nothing keeps the 'self' intact. Not escaping from that fear, facing it, 'mirroring' it (in its "solitude") will reveal it to itself.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 12 May 2017.

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Sat, 13 May 2017 #240
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
'Exploration without the explorer' so that everything is seen through fresh eyes..

Clive: That's right. The explorer, the analyser, the observer, the thinker, etc, is never fresh – he is really just a collection of memories, of experiences, and is always based firmly in the past

Dan McDermott wrote:
The model that I see, and it is only that, is that what we, you, are,is pure 'being'. The 'self' or the 'me' has been created by the brain for whatever reason. It is of course limited in each of us by our experiences, knowledge etc. The 'self' through its 'fear' of 'not being' denies and obscures what we are in fact, pure 'being'. This we cannot 'grasp' because we are it. We cannot 'experience' it, because we are it. Man's sorrow lies here. He struggles to be what he already is. He struggles to be an 'image' of what he 'thinks' he is. He 'accumulates' for security when the 'only' security lies in being 'no-thing'. He wants to 'taste' the 'timeless' but he lives, trapped in 'time', in 'desire', in becoming...fear of being nothing keeps the 'self' intact. Not escaping from that fear, facing it, 'mirroring' it (in its "solitude") will reveal it to itself.

Clive: I lay down to take a rest today, and immediately the self started up with its endless, duality, its endless discontent with what is, all its “should be's”, all its attempts to become other than it is. But it turned out not to be endless, because all the habitual movement was seen for what it was, at a glance. In the light of that seeing, it instantly ended.

Then there was ….... well, firstly, a state of peace. A sense of pure well-being. A contentment that was somehow creative, full of potential …. ready to act when action was needed, but feeling no need to initiate action.

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