Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

It's very simple


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Sat, 15 Apr 2017 #91
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
voir si cette perception directe profite en quelque sorte de la mémoire / enregistrement et de la pensée, ou rien du tout.

d'accord,

de ce que je vois, la perception directe est la cessation de toute interférence qui découle sur la disparition de la dimension objet/sujet.

de ce que je vois, je ne peux pas dire si la perception directe a une origine, je peux dire qu'elle se produit dans certaines conditions mais qui ne sont pas considérées comme son origine.

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Sun, 16 Apr 2017 #92
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4264 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Isn't it when the seeing has ended that the memory of what was seen is recorded? It is one thing to see anger as it occurs and another thing to remember anger that was.

Clive: I am looking at this. I have always assumed that recording in the brain takes place when the incident, the perception is happening. I am willing to challenge this idea.

I had thought that the brain is a recording machine, and this recording goes on continually – albeit at an unconscious level. I have sometimes been astounded that the brain – through the senses – is able to record so much information. The capacity to recall in the state of hypnosis seems to provide evidence that EVERYTHING is recorded, but of course not everything is always recalled (I think there is a condition where some people actually do). But it may be acting at a sub-conscious level.

H: Can I see anger and already remember it as I am seeing it?

C: Clearly perception and memory cannot occur simultaneously.

H: So the memory arises right after the actual seeing, no? Remembering is involuntary. It happens without effort or desire, doesn't it

C: Absolutely. Thought arises unbidden to the mind, as I keep writing :-)

H: So the memory arises right after the actual seeing, no? Remembering is involuntary. It happens without effort or desire, doesn't it? And without the memory or knowledge of what was seen - being the past, time - thought has nothing to think about, does it? What can thought think about without memory or knowledge? At least I don't see how there can be thought without memory.

Clive: Neither do I. But it seems that the mind demands something to think about, it is compulsive.

H: Thought is based on memory, and thought begins thinking about the memory, about what it knows. It is preoccupied with it --- trying to figure out what to do about what was seen, projecting it into the future.

C: I am still not clear about what the distinction between thought and memory. Can you clarify this?

Of course I could be mistaken but that is how it seems to me. Then can thought SEE? Or is what it "sees" merely the past it remembers and the future it imagines?

No, I don't think thought can see. Thought is image, idea, word. What I was inquiring into is how seeing gets passed over into thought. Perhaps it is a non-question.

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Sun, 16 Apr 2017 #93
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4264 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
what is "consciousness"?

I would say that cosciousness is this vast reservoir of all (all) human experience and knowledge, starting from year zero. That is where we live, breath, and have our being, and we are adding to it all the time.

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Sun, 16 Apr 2017 #94
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4264 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The mind or brain as a sense organ is logical to me. When a thought is perceived - when “I am thinking something" and “I know I am thinking something” - I realize that there is an actual physical movement of matter (hormonal, electrical, whatever, however it works) occurring within matter (neurons, myelin, whatever it is), just as there is when there is perception via the other sensory organs.

Clive: Do you? Do you actually sense the physical movement in the brain, rather than just being aware that thought is saying something?

H: The functioning of the brain is certainly very interesting but there is a limit to my interest in understanding its physical functioning through the microscope as it were, perhaps because there’s a limit to my capacity to understand science and math.

C: I agree that to study the brain “from the outside” is very limiting. Interesting, but limited.

Huguette: But there’s no end or limit to my interest in understanding what awareness reveals, in understanding silence, and so on.

Clive: Indeed.

Huguette: Awareness reveals fragmentation in the moment, doesn’t it?

Clive: Yes.

H: --- fragmentation as time, self, effort, desire, fear, resistance, attachment, obfuscation, pretense, vanity, etc. And where there’s NO awareness, there’s no self-understanding. So the mind sees that action based on fragmentation or division is bondage, it is false, partial, conditioned action, corrupt, conflictual, divisive action leading to sorrow.

Clive: Yes, it always leads to sorrow. That is, the self does. The strange thing is, it never seems to fully realise this. The apparent victories of the self are actually its defeats. It never has realised it, apparently. This non-realisation is very strange, isn't it?

H: Therefore the mind doesn’t act based on these, not because it is trying to overcome or suppress them but because it sees the bondage in them. Which is the same as saying, “You can't see what to do, you can see only what not to do”, isn’t it?

C: Yes.

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Sun, 16 Apr 2017 #95
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4264 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
If we did not suffer, would we look into any of this?

I'll tell you when I cease to suffer :-). When all conflict, duality, ends.

K seemed to endlessly look into things, even though apparently he was beyond suffering. Or perhaps he only did so as part of looking at things with others.

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Sun, 16 Apr 2017 #96
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4264 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:

Clive Elwell wrote:

because consciousness can not be detected

Why can consciousness not be detected? (consciousness as “the larger energy field”, where you are talking about.)

Clive, stand up and take a step towards yourself……it is not a trick question….it is impossible to take a step towards yourself, because you are to close to yourself.
Consciousness is to close to itself to be detected, everything you detect is consciousness.

Again, Olive, you are quoting the article that I posted, not my own words.

But it is interesting, certainly. I sometimes think "the eyes cannot see themselves"

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Sun, 16 Apr 2017 #97
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
osciousness is this vast reservoir

What is the différence between consciousness and memory?

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Mon, 17 Apr 2017 #98
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4264 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
What is the différence between consciousness and memory?

Good question! My first response was: “none”. No difference.

But the word “memory” is usually reserved for things associated with this particular life, this set of experiences particular to this body, since its birth. For me, I think human consciousness contains all the memories of all the human beings who have ever been born on this planet (many of them obviously also having died) since the brain started to develop.

(It may go further back than this also).

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Mon, 17 Apr 2017 #99
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
My first response was: “none”. No difference.

yes Clive no diference... the consciousness is memory, the consciousness is this part of memory which is printed through the "self filter". printed when the the first translation from senses are memorised as something separate... and then born a kind of memory which is named the consciousness...

This post was last updated by richard viillar Mon, 17 Apr 2017.

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Tue, 18 Apr 2017 #100
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4264 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
yes Clive no diference... the consciousness is memory,

Yes, fundamentally it is so. It came to me recently that "we are living through dead people's memories".

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