Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Have you ever loved beyond imagination? ...


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Wed, 01 Mar 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio Juan E Spain 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Have you ever loved beyond imagination?
Have you ever faced the challenge put there by your thought?
Have you ever abandoned yourselves to life without the slightest resistance?
Have you ever felt that there's nothing to love there and yet love everything?
Have you ever emptied yourselves of that love and yet love?

How can someone talk about love, then?!

Juan
01.03.2017 (22:31 Spanish time)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Thu, 02 Mar 2017 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
How can someone talk about love, then?!

Krishnamurti's Notebook | Part 9 Delhi 20th January

" The cold had been too severe, it had been below freezing; the hedge had been burned brown, the brown leaves had fallen off; the lawn was grey-brown, the colour of the earth; except for a few yellow pansies and roses, the garden was bare. It had been too cold and the poor, as usual, were suffering and dying; population was exploding and people were dying. You saw them shivering, with hardly a thing on, in dirty rags; an old woman was shaking from head to foot, hugging herself, the few teeth chattering; a young woman was washing herself and a torn cloth by the cold river [the Jumna] and an old man was coughing deeply and heavily and children were playing, laughing and shouting. It was an exceptionally cold winter; they said and many were dying. The red rose and the yellow pansy were intensely alive, burning with colour; you couldn't take your eyes off them and those two colours seemed to expand and fill the empty garden; even though the children were shouting, that shivering old woman was everywhere; the incredible yellow and red and the inevitable death. Colour was god and death was beyond the gods. It was everywhere and so was colour. You could not separate the two and if you did then there was no living. Neither could you separate love from death and if you did it was no longer beauty. Every colour is separated, made much of but there is only colour and when you see every different colour as only colour, then only is there splendour in colour. The red rose and the yellow pansy were not different colours but colour that filled the bare garden with glory. The sky was pale blue, blue of a cold, rainless winter but it was the blue of all colour. You saw it and you were of it; the noises of the city faded but colour, imperishable, endured."

Juan,

it's Love speaking through someone and not: "Have you ever ...."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #3
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Colour was god and death was beyond the gods. It was everywhere and so was colour. You could not separate the two and if you did then there was no living.

Hi Wim,

Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

The light that doesn’t share the limits of any of the particular colours?

Wim Opdam wrote:
The red rose and the yellow pansy were not different colours but colour that filled the bare garden with glory. The sky was pale blue, blue of a cold, rainless winter but it was the blue of all colour.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #4
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Colour was god and death was beyond the gods. It was everywhere and so was colour. You could not separate the two and if you did then there was no living.

Hi Wim,

Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

The light that doesn’t share the limits of any of the particular colours?

Wim Opdam wrote:
The red rose and the yellow pansy were not different colours but colour that filled the bare garden with glory. The sky was pale blue, blue of a cold, rainless winter but it was the blue of all colour.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Why did you had the need to quote someone else?

Seeing Love expressed in words created this action and there was no one, only this description.

Why did not you let Love speak through you?

This was - may be - silence speaking, I don't know

Do you understand now the deep meaning of my questions?

Why did you have doubts and have you doubts on my not understanding ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #6
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

The light that doesn’t share the limits of any of the particular colours?

One doesn't analyse the beauty of something it leads to the destruction of the beauty. One sees or not.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

Seeing Love expressed in words created this action and there was no one, only this description.

Did K ever expressed his Love quoting the Love expressed in words by Buddha (or any other)?

I have no knowledge of everything Krishnamurti said so I can not answer that question.

Juan E wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

This was - may be - silence speaking, I don't know

Is there silence speaking in quoting the words of another?

As earlyer said : "I don't know"

Juan E wrote:
Do you understand now the deep meaning of my questions?

Wim Opdam wrote:

Why did you have doubts and have you doubts on my not understanding ??

Is this Love ... reacting?

In the formulation of your question above the word now indicates a conclusion
an image from you of me and it was me reacting on that.

And by the way Love doesn't react but act !!

Juan E wrote:
Why did you had the need to quote someone else?

why did you assume that there is a need ??

And so one can go on and on by falling over each word used, does not lead to the understanding of what it is really about. Too are answering a questionin with another question does not lead to clarification but is rather an attempt to hide or just to present your own self.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 04 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #8
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

The light that doesn’t share the limits of any of the particular colours?

The expression of Truth can take many forms and is in the same time not Truth itself.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #9
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
The expression of Truth can take many forms and is in the same time not Truth itself.

When we realize that there is just Truth, we can no longer call it Truth, because Truth as opposed to what?

We cannot name the reality of experience.

And yet, our entire experience is made out of this unnamable.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
When we realize that there is just Truth, we can no longer call it Truth, because Truth as opposed to what?

We cannot name the reality of experience.

And yet, our entire experience is made out of this unnamable.

Yes there is a strange effect: when all is clear paradoxes appear !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #11
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
If i ask you something, would you answer me sincerely, from the heart? ... When you read my post, you were casually reading or listening what you quoted, or you searched for it after reading my post?

Dear Juan,

I've no idea what you mean by: 'sincerely, from the heart' but I can honestly and truthfully say I've been walking around for a few days with your questions and suddenly saw the quote from one of those days in response with the finishing remark at the end as an reply, no search involved and reading always the quote of the day very carefully.

Keep in mind that Love/Truth has no memory... may be only an echo....

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 04 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 684 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Then, accept my honest and truthful apologizes ... Thanks Wim!

Dear Juan,
there was no need for an apology but it makes me very happy that a misunderstanding is cleared up ;-) Thanks !
Have a nice presence.

p.s.: "sincerely" = honestly -- "from the heart" = truthfully

I thought so, but in the feeling it sounded somewhat pompous, woolly !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #13
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4184 posts in this forum Offline

Juan, since you have been wiling to bring your personal loving relationship onto the forum for discussion, I take the liberty of asking the following question - of course you are free to not reply.

To what extent are your feelings personal to this one person? To what extent are they focused on one other person? It is clear that your feelings to the whole world are affected, your perception, understanding of life, also....... I don't want to make my question too narrow, so I will end here.

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Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4184 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Now that feeling seems to have come back and not thanks to her,

Not wishing to apply analysis here, but wondering what it is that gives rise to such feelings? How is the heart suddenly vulnerable, when before it was not?

There was a time in my life when I suddenly found myself so vulnerable to life, so free in my responses, that I think other other people considered me insane. There was no particular person involved in this; rather there was a seeing that everyone I came into contact with, family, friends, acquaintances, strangers, were really "all the same". No distinction was made.

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Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #15
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4184 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Now that feeling seems to have come back and not thanks to her,

Not wishing to apply analysis here, but wondering what it is that gives rise to such feelings? How is the heart suddenly vulnerable, when before it was not?

There was a time in my life when I suddenly found myself so vulnerable to life, so free in my responses, that I think other other people considered me insane. There was no particular person involved in this; rather there was a seeing that everyone I came into contact with, family, friends, acquaintances, strangers, were really "all the same". No distinction was made.

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Sat, 11 Mar 2017 #16
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4184 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
But would you let me ask you now what's your feeling about your loosing of that feeling you had (which in fact it seems not lost, but just asleep inside us)?

Did I say that I had lost that feeling? I think the changes that happened to me at that time (and it was an instantaneous change) have never really been lost. At times they have been stronger, and times weaker. Probably I have learnt to be more circumspect.

But I don't really know if there is any point in talking about the past. As soon as one starts one becomes aware of the limitations of that process. Looking back, it is felt all one has is incomplete recollections, interpretations, stale knowledge that has been repeated many times.

So would you say that we do not really know where the feelings of vulnerability, tenderness, love, come from? In fact, what do we know, really? As T S Eliot said:

You cannot say, or guess, for you know only

A heap of broken images.

Sorry I do not have much coherent to reply to your mails, Juan. As I said, thought cannot meet such feelings. They are truly a mystery, truly unknown, and why should we try to reduce them to the known? The known is such a petty affair.

As Jane Goodall (of Chimpanzee fame) said in a recent talk:

“It seems to me there is a disconnect between the clever, clever, clever brain and the human heart”

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