Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Have you ever loved beyond imagination? ...


Displaying all 24 posts
Page 1 of 1
Wed, 01 Mar 2017 #1
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

Have you ever loved beyond imagination?
Have you ever faced the challenge put there by your thought?
Have you ever abandoned yourselves to life without the slightest resistance?
Have you ever felt that there's nothing to love there and yet love everything?
Have you ever emptied yourselves of that love and yet love?

How can someone talk about love, then?!

Juan
01.03.2017 (22:31 Spanish time)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 02 Mar 2017 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
How can someone talk about love, then?!

Krishnamurti's Notebook | Part 9 Delhi 20th January

" The cold had been too severe, it had been below freezing; the hedge had been burned brown, the brown leaves had fallen off; the lawn was grey-brown, the colour of the earth; except for a few yellow pansies and roses, the garden was bare. It had been too cold and the poor, as usual, were suffering and dying; population was exploding and people were dying. You saw them shivering, with hardly a thing on, in dirty rags; an old woman was shaking from head to foot, hugging herself, the few teeth chattering; a young woman was washing herself and a torn cloth by the cold river [the Jumna] and an old man was coughing deeply and heavily and children were playing, laughing and shouting. It was an exceptionally cold winter; they said and many were dying. The red rose and the yellow pansy were intensely alive, burning with colour; you couldn't take your eyes off them and those two colours seemed to expand and fill the empty garden; even though the children were shouting, that shivering old woman was everywhere; the incredible yellow and red and the inevitable death. Colour was god and death was beyond the gods. It was everywhere and so was colour. You could not separate the two and if you did then there was no living. Neither could you separate love from death and if you did it was no longer beauty. Every colour is separated, made much of but there is only colour and when you see every different colour as only colour, then only is there splendour in colour. The red rose and the yellow pansy were not different colours but colour that filled the bare garden with glory. The sky was pale blue, blue of a cold, rainless winter but it was the blue of all colour. You saw it and you were of it; the noises of the city faded but colour, imperishable, endured."

Juan,

it's Love speaking through someone and not: "Have you ever ...."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 02 Mar 2017 #3
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

Why did you had the need to quote someone else?
Why did not you let Love speak through you?

Do you understand now the deep meaning of my questions?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Thu, 02 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #4
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 86 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Colour was god and death was beyond the gods. It was everywhere and so was colour. You could not separate the two and if you did then there was no living.

Hi Wim,

Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

The light that doesn’t share the limits of any of the particular colours?

Wim Opdam wrote:
The red rose and the yellow pansy were not different colours but colour that filled the bare garden with glory. The sky was pale blue, blue of a cold, rainless winter but it was the blue of all colour.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #5
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 86 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Colour was god and death was beyond the gods. It was everywhere and so was colour. You could not separate the two and if you did then there was no living.

Hi Wim,

Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

The light that doesn’t share the limits of any of the particular colours?

Wim Opdam wrote:
The red rose and the yellow pansy were not different colours but colour that filled the bare garden with glory. The sky was pale blue, blue of a cold, rainless winter but it was the blue of all colour.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #6
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Why did you had the need to quote someone else?

Seeing Love expressed in words created this action and there was no one, only this description.

Why did not you let Love speak through you?

This was - may be - silence speaking, I don't know

Do you understand now the deep meaning of my questions?

Why did you have doubts and have you doubts on my not understanding ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

The light that doesn’t share the limits of any of the particular colours?

One doesn't analyse the beauty of something it leads to the destruction of the beauty. One sees or not.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #8
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Seeing Love expressed in words created this action and there was no one, only this description.

Did K ever expressed his Love quoting the Love expressed in words by Buddha (or any other)?

Wim Opdam wrote:
This was - may be - silence speaking, I don't know

Is there silence speaking in quoting the words of another?

Wim Opdam wrote:
Why did you have doubts and have you doubts on my not understanding ??

Is this Love ... reacting?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 03 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #9
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

Colour was god and death was beyond the gods. It was everywhere and so was colour. You could not separate the two and if you did then there was no living.

Hi Wim,

Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

To me K is trying to express here the same Buddha tried to express when he said "Emptiness is form, form is emptiness", but surely i'm mistaken ...

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

Seeing Love expressed in words created this action and there was no one, only this description.

Did K ever expressed his Love quoting the Love expressed in words by Buddha (or any other)?

I have no knowledge of everything Krishnamurti said so I can not answer that question.

Juan E wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

This was - may be - silence speaking, I don't know

Is there silence speaking in quoting the words of another?

As earlyer said : "I don't know"

Juan E wrote:
Do you understand now the deep meaning of my questions?

Wim Opdam wrote:

Why did you have doubts and have you doubts on my not understanding ??

Is this Love ... reacting?

In the formulation of your question above the word now indicates a conclusion
an image from you of me and it was me reacting on that.

And by the way Love doesn't react but act !!

Juan E wrote:
Why did you had the need to quote someone else?

why did you assume that there is a need ??

And so one can go on and on by falling over each word used, does not lead to the understanding of what it is really about. Too are answering a questionin with another question does not lead to clarification but is rather an attempt to hide or just to present your own self.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 04 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #11
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Do you think K was talking about the colourless light, the unlimited light where all colours are made of.

The light that doesn’t share the limits of any of the particular colours?

The expression of Truth can take many forms and is in the same time not Truth itself.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #12
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 86 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
The expression of Truth can take many forms and is in the same time not Truth itself.

When we realize that there is just Truth, we can no longer call it Truth, because Truth as opposed to what?

We cannot name the reality of experience.

And yet, our entire experience is made out of this unnamable.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #13
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
When we realize that there is just Truth, we can no longer call it Truth, because Truth as opposed to what?

We cannot name the reality of experience.

And yet, our entire experience is made out of this unnamable.

Yes there is a strange effect: when all is clear paradoxes appear !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #14
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:

Juan E wrote:

Why did you had the need to quote someone else?

why did you assume that there is a need ??

If i ask you something, would you answer me sincerely, from the heart? ... When you read my post, you were casually reading or listening what you quoted, or you searched for it after reading my post?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Sat, 04 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #15
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
If i ask you something, would you answer me sincerely, from the heart? ... When you read my post, you were casually reading or listening what you quoted, or you searched for it after reading my post?

Dear Juan,

I've no idea what you mean by: 'sincerely, from the heart' but I can honestly and truthfully say I've been walking around for a few days with your questions and suddenly saw the quote from one of those days in response with the finishing remark at the end as an reply, no search involved and reading always the quote of the day very carefully.

Keep in mind that Love/Truth has no memory... may be only an echo....

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 04 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #16
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
and suddenly saw the quote

Then, accept my honest and truthful apologizes ... Thanks Wim!

p.s.: "sincerely" = honestly -- "from the heart" = truthfully

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Sat, 04 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #17
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Then, accept my honest and truthful apologizes ... Thanks Wim!

Dear Juan,
there was no need for an apology but it makes me very happy that a misunderstanding is cleared up ;-) Thanks !
Have a nice presence.

p.s.: "sincerely" = honestly -- "from the heart" = truthfully

I thought so, but in the feeling it sounded somewhat pompous, woolly !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #18
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3043 posts in this forum Offline

Juan, since you have been wiling to bring your personal loving relationship onto the forum for discussion, I take the liberty of asking the following question - of course you are free to not reply.

To what extent are your feelings personal to this one person? To what extent are they focused on one other person? It is clear that your feelings to the whole world are affected, your perception, understanding of life, also....... I don't want to make my question too narrow, so I will end here.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #19
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

No prob in exposing myself, Clive!

Clive Elwell wrote:
To what extent are your feelings personal to this one person?

My feelings to this one person are not different from my feelings to another one persons i may usually meet in my daily life (as a postman in the morning, and as an ordinary person in the evening), the only difference is that whatever fills me in my relationship with others there's something inside that wishes to be shared with her, not through words but through that kind of joy that fills me inside ...

This is the same feeling i already had with my first girlfriend almost 38 years ago, but as you know (i'm sure of that) life obscures this kind of feelings through bad experiences, hurts and all the rest and one eventually loses naturalness ...

Now that feeling seems to have come back and not thanks to her, but nobody could deny that she has had an important role in all that (which affects somehow also the relationships i have with others) ...

Clive Elwell wrote:
To what extent are they focused on one other person?

Believe me, they are not focused at all on one other person ... I have understood something the other day about her, she just wanted me to be there, not too near making her feeling overwhelmed by it, not too far for her to feel that i had left, and at that time i felt deep inside all the love she had for me (that which hides itself behind fear, doubts, and so on) and my heart was at peace because having understood what real freedom means (and she was not there, because i was alone thinking on her) ...

My threads since 26 February on are deeply rooted in that feeling i'm trying to convey now, if you want to re-read them at this moment ...

That's the reason why there is no focussing in her at all, having felt her freedom and her love beyond her fears, doubts and all the rest we all know quite well, and there's no hurry, but just acceptance of whatever she wants to give or not to give me, or what she wants to receive or not to receive from me, and there's a real joy when she gives me a kiss in the cheek, or embraces me without no apparent reason ... What more could one desire?

Clive Elwell wrote:
It is clear that your feelings to the whole world are affected, your perception, understanding of life, also

Yes, very clear to me and i neither don't know why nor i want to know why ... What is lived is lived as ever before and i've observed too that this something affects somehow the others too when we meet and talk about life and living ...

I remember now the other day ... I went for a walk to a beach near my town in the morning, and there i saw a couple doing pictures to one each other, so i approached them and told them "Do you want me to take a picture of you both together? Because a picture of one alone is nice but not so nice as one being together!" and we smiled together, so i took the picture with their mobile phone and left leaving them happy with their picture together and myself continuing the walk thinking about other things ...

Clive Elwell wrote:
I don't want to make my question too narrow, so I will end here.

But please, feel free to ask the questions you (or anybody else here) want, because in that inquire i could find out that all that is merely an hallucination in me! ... Let me listen to your hearts talking about all that, not as much as about me or what i have written, but about what your hearts feel in your daily life no matter what ...

Thanks at least for listening! ;-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 07 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #20
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3043 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Now that feeling seems to have come back and not thanks to her,

Not wishing to apply analysis here, but wondering what it is that gives rise to such feelings? How is the heart suddenly vulnerable, when before it was not?

There was a time in my life when I suddenly found myself so vulnerable to life, so free in my responses, that I think other other people considered me insane. There was no particular person involved in this; rather there was a seeing that everyone I came into contact with, family, friends, acquaintances, strangers, were really "all the same". No distinction was made.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #21
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3043 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Now that feeling seems to have come back and not thanks to her,

Not wishing to apply analysis here, but wondering what it is that gives rise to such feelings? How is the heart suddenly vulnerable, when before it was not?

There was a time in my life when I suddenly found myself so vulnerable to life, so free in my responses, that I think other other people considered me insane. There was no particular person involved in this; rather there was a seeing that everyone I came into contact with, family, friends, acquaintances, strangers, were really "all the same". No distinction was made.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #22
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
wondering what it is that gives rise to such feelings?

I really don't know, Clive ... I made an appointment with her one day, she worked with me and one day she commented that she was doing paintings and that she had some inner seeking too, so i asked her to meet some day to talk together and show me her paintings ... So, we went to drink some coffee, we talked, and then we went for a walk to the sea walk to continue with our talk (at that time it was night already) ... And it was during that walk that something opened in me unexpectedly, and at that time i would have embraced her and continue our walk without any words (of course, i did not do anything but continue walking beside her and talking with her) ... And there i suddenly became aware that i was recovering something i thought i had lost many, many years ago ...

It was her the cause? ... The walk at night beside her talking quietly together? ... I don't really know ... Both felt well together (she told me that before leaving) and we exchanged our phone numbers, but the fact is that i resisted to have any other meeting with her during a month or so while i continued living and observing that which i had recovered ... As i have said, nobody can deny that she had an important role in that opening, but i can not understand neither the role, nor the importance of that role in her ...

Clive Elwell wrote:
How is the heart suddenly vulnerable, when before it was not?

Again, i don't really know Clive ... All of a sudden heart opens and starts feeling something that have nothing to do with what was a second before ... What makes that to happen i don't know, but it happens ... All of a sudden that heart becomes vulnerable, and if it is hurt somehow, it is able to see that hurt and its causes and it becomes calm through that seeing ... I don't know why.

Clive Elwell wrote:
There was a time in my life when I suddenly found myself so vulnerable to life, so free in my responses, that I think other other people considered me insane.

I have had this feeling many times in my life (as well as many other people here, surely), but now it is different i don't know why ... A part of what you describe is lacking, the one that says "I think other people considered me insane" because i feel deeply inside that other people feel well when we meet and talk together, i don't know why ...

Clive Elwell wrote:
There was no particular person involved in this; rather there was a seeing that everyone I came into contact with, family, friends, acquaintances, strangers, were really "all the same". No distinction was made.

Yes, that's the feeling i have now, no distinction is made ... There's no difference between my relationship with her or any other person i could meet in the street during my daily morning rounds or when i go for a walk or shopping downtown in the evening ... The only difference, as i've said in my last post, is that there's something inside that wishes to deeply share with her (and no other) that with which life fills my heart after having met someone else ... Without words but only the joy of having understood/seen something with someone else ... That's the feeling i thought i had lost and which surfaced again few months ago in that walk with her at night in the sea walk.

But would you let me ask you now what's your feeling about your loosing of that feeling you had (which in fact it seems not lost, but just asleep inside us)? ... What do you feel it was the cause for you to "lose" that feeling? ... Would you say that it was the thought thinking "other people consider me insane"? ... As i said above, i don't have that feeling now, but i had it in the past, and in my case i feel that eventually it lead me somehow to negate myself ...

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Wed, 08 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 11 Mar 2017 #23
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3043 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
But would you let me ask you now what's your feeling about your loosing of that feeling you had (which in fact it seems not lost, but just asleep inside us)?

Did I say that I had lost that feeling? I think the changes that happened to me at that time (and it was an instantaneous change) have never really been lost. At times they have been stronger, and times weaker. Probably I have learnt to be more circumspect.

But I don't really know if there is any point in talking about the past. As soon as one starts one becomes aware of the limitations of that process. Looking back, it is felt all one has is incomplete recollections, interpretations, stale knowledge that has been repeated many times.

So would you say that we do not really know where the feelings of vulnerability, tenderness, love, come from? In fact, what do we know, really? As T S Eliot said:

You cannot say, or guess, for you know only

A heap of broken images.

Sorry I do not have much coherent to reply to your mails, Juan. As I said, thought cannot meet such feelings. They are truly a mystery, truly unknown, and why should we try to reduce them to the known? The known is such a petty affair.

As Jane Goodall (of Chimpanzee fame) said in a recent talk:

“It seems to me there is a disconnect between the clever, clever, clever brain and the human heart”

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 11 Mar 2017 #24
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 106 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Did I say that I had lost that feeling?

I'm very sorry for this, it seems i misunderstood your "there was" in your phrase "There was a time in my life when I..." ... And yet, you seem to continue talking in the past (i.e.: as if the feeling were not there in the present) when you write "At times they have been stronger, and times weaker" ... Why you don't say "At times they are"? ... Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Clive Elwell wrote:
But I don't really know if there is any point in talking about the past.

Well, K talked many times in his talks about the past when he talked words like "I saw this or that when walking/going by car/through window, and so on", or "I talked with this or that person telling me this or that" ... So, is there any problem at all in talking about the past when this is used to look at something in the present?

Clive Elwell wrote:
So would you say that we do not really know where the feelings of vulnerability, tenderness, love, come from?

We ALL know that we are vulnerable since we are born, this feeling doesn't come from from anywhere! ... The thing that comes from some place is our regain of the awareness that we have been (and are) always vulnerable ... An awareness that we have hide behind all our hurts, bad experiences, and so on ... Tenderness and Love arise when we become aware of what we've made of our lives trying constantly to hide that truth to not to be hurt again ...

That's what Olive didn't understood about i was trying to say referred to that vulnerability and therefore he begin to talk about me talking about romantic Love and not true Love (or simply, Love) ... It's difficult to understand that Love has no fear in being vulnerable, or in being hurt, because it is in the understanding of that hurt that true Love arises ... But we don't want to be what we are, vulnerable, isn't it? ... So, let me repeat the question i put in another thread: how can someone talk others about Freedom and Love (as many we do here) without living in that vulnerability?

Clive Elwell wrote:
Sorry I do not have much coherent to reply to your mails, Juan.

Do you mean that your thought do not have much coherent to reply?

Clive Elwell wrote:
As I said, thought cannot meet such feelings.

But Heart can! ... through that vulnerability we are talking about ... But perhaps you don't want to be vulnerable exposing yourself here, which is perfectly understood ... No need to worry, Clive, not everybody is open to expose himself under any circumstances, i understand that quite well.

By the way, with "mails" do you mean "posts", no?, as i didn't write you any mail since we started our conversation here ;-)

Clive Elwell wrote:
“It seems to me there is a disconnect between the clever, clever, clever brain and the human heart”

This is precisely what i tried to uncover, and look at it together with these series of posts ... But this world is totally disconnected from human heart, and yet this world talks and talks and talks without end about freedom, love, solidarity, and so on, so on without never exposing itself before itself!

Really, really sad!!

Now, anyone of you can point your artillery to me if you want, i'm prepared!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Sat, 11 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying all 24 posts
Page 1 of 1
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)