Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Is this not real love in absolute freedom? ...


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Sun, 26 Feb 2017 #1
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

At night the room was very dark and the wide window showed the whole southern sky, and into this room one night came - with a great deal of fluttering - a bird. Turning on the light and getting out of bed one saw it under the bed. It was an owl. It was about a foot-and-a-half high with extremely wide big eyes and a fearsome beak. We gazed at each other quite close, a few feet apart. It was frightened by the light and the closeness of a human being. We looked at each other without blinking for quite a while, and it never lost its height and its fierce dignity. You could see the cruel claws the light feathers and the wings tightly held against the body. One would have liked to touch it, stroke it, but it would not have allowed that. So presently the light was turned out and for some time there was quietness in the room. Soon there was a fluttering of the wings - you could feel the air against your face - and the owl had gone out of the window. It never came again -- J.KonLine Daily Quote Archive » Meditation is not an escape from the world

How many times we touch the other, in its multiple ways, without that deep feeling that only love has, to know if the other wants to be touched or not, by us? ... How many times we have such a respect for the other with our hearts resting calm and loving when the other doesn't want us to touch him or her in its multiple ways? ... How many times we feel happy hearing the wings of the other fluttering and going out of the window without knowing if he or she will come back again? ...

How many times we really love the other(s) along the day?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Sun, 26 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3370 posts in this forum Offline

Good questions, Juan, and I appreciate the analogy that you draw with this description by K of his meeting with the owl.

Knowing when to let go is indeed a challenging thing. At least it is challenging to the mind. Perhaps it is no challenge to love, because the letting go is an integral part of love, not separate from it.

I think K once said that if we really loved another, we would happily see that person, support that person, getting married to another.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #3
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Knowing when to let go is indeed a challenging thing.

I deeply feel in the relation i talked to you by PM, that one can never let go the other, simply because the other have always had the freedom to go when and wherever he or she wants ... That the thing we let go is in fact not the other, but the image in ourselves of the other in the sense that at that moment the ever present freedom in the other becomes our own freedom ... And is from that freedom that true love arises, a love as you say that is able to happily see the other, support the other, getting married to another ... or simply start living an unknown life side by side with the other.

So challenge to me right now, is not about the other(s) freedom, but about our own freedom.

Am i conveying something?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 28 Feb 2017.

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #4
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

The world doesn't love, it only loves itself, so killing everything within it.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Thu, 02 Mar 2017 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3370 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
The world doesn't love, it only loves itself, so killing everything within it.

I often hear the phrase "one needs to love onself", but does it really have any meaning?

For one thing, what is this "oneself"? Does it have actual existence, or is it merely an image?

And is love only there when the self is not?

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Thu, 02 Mar 2017 #6
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3370 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
That the thing we let go is in fact not the other, but the image in ourselves of the other

This seems so, Juan. In fact all the mind can contain is images, is it not?

Juan E wrote:
in the sense that at that moment the ever present freedom in the other becomes our own freedom ..

What is this "ever present freedom in the other", Juan?

And in letting go of the images in ourselves, are we creating freedom in the world? Because those images actually are the images of the world.

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Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #7
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I often hear the phrase "one needs to love oneself", but does it really have any meaning?

It has its meaning as a protection against the harming of others ...

I mean, at one time i was in Switzerland -- as i've mentioned sometimes here -- in a Buddhist monastery studying Buddhist Logic and Buddhist Emptiness, but i ran out of money ... So i decided to go back to Spain to work for some months in the post office and return to Switzerland, but it was impossible ... So i decided to get some money repairing and helping others with computers (something i had done in the past but without asking any money for it) ... My great surprise was that those people i helped in the past preferred to go to any computer shop and pay for the repairing before go ask me for it ...

So one day i wasn't complaining but expressing how we human beings are through all this to one of my best friends (to whom i helped many, many times with his computer before, BTW!), just to go together deep into it when all of a sudden he said "It is your fault! If you had asked for money the first time this would not be happening to you now" ... which is another way to say "one needs to love oneself"

In short: "if you don't want to suffer think on yourself first and create a well marked line between you and the other(s)" ... And sadly enough it is what most people think when they are hurt by others

Clive Elwell wrote:
For one thing, what is this "oneself"?

A thing with which we identify as if we where really that ...

Clive Elwell wrote:
Does it have actual existence,

... but that it doesn't have an actual existence ...

Clive Elwell wrote:
or is it merely an image?

... because it is merely an image ... something really difficult to realize for the most of us.

Clive Elwell wrote:
And is love only there when the self is not?

This is a very good question Clive ... what do you think? ... Let me put it in another words: can someone who Loves (with capital letter) somehow be hurt? ... Did K felt hurt somehow by Rajagopal? ... Or this is not seen as hurting by the one who Loves despite the possible sadness felt by the action(s) of the other(s)?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #8
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
What is this "ever present freedom in the other", Juan?

Some husbands (or wives) use to say "I let the other free to do anything", but no husband (nor no wife) can let the other free because the other is already free to do whatever he or she wants ... So, it is an utterly illusion to think that i can let the other(s) be free, and it is an illusion to think that the other is letting me be free ... We can go into it if you want and explore that together if you want

Clive Elwell wrote:
And in letting go of the images in ourselves, are we creating freedom in the world?

No, because the world is already free (if i remember well, i think Mina tried to talk about that long ago) ... To me, what i'm observing right now in my living in relation, is that in letting go of images the only thing that happens is that we return to our natural state of freedom which has nothing to do with thought saying "I'm free!".

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 03 Mar 2017 #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3370 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
. To me, what i'm observing right now in my living in relation, is that in letting go of images the only thing that happens is that we return to our natural state of freedom which has nothing to do with thought saying "I'm free!".

So are you saying that the relationship, by exposing the falseness of image-making, reveals what has always been there in a human being, but has been obscured, the state of freedom?

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Sat, 04 Mar 2017 #10
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So are you saying that the relationship, by exposing the falseness of image-making, reveals what has always been there in a human being, but has been obscured, the state of freedom?

Absolutely yes, and in that natural freedom is where (real) Love arises ...

This morning, few minutes ago, i wake up with this in mind because something that happened yesterday in our relationship: The Love that really loves is vulnerable, but we don't want others to know about that vulnerability in us, so it is because of this that we build walls pretending to love after from behind those individual walls -- Mmm! I think i will make a drawing talking about this -- and therefore putting ourselves in a personal prison throwing the key so far away that we seem unable to find it when we start feeling the lack of the freedom we had before entering in it ... and also, while we are in that prison we don't like at all that vulnerability to be exposed by any other, becoming angry somehow to all those that are able to expose something we think its really hidden to the others' eyes deep inside us ...

So, this world is created by me after having cut the wings of a natural freedom (and therefore a natural Love) which is in me since i had born ... Fortunately for us, this freedom (and Love) manifests from time to time in us no matter how many walls we have build around it, which makes us to feel the need to search for it again when it disappears ... until eventually we get in touch with what we really are ...

This is an individual process, and it can not be searched to happen collectively ... That's why i can not give such a freedom to another, nor teach the other how to be free, but be free myself letting Love arise freely for everything ...

This is the one and only miracle that this world needs, human being, each one of us, entering in touch with what we really are, not with what we pretend to be all the time (which all of us know quite well that hurts us all the time in a way or another) ...

Good morning to you all, 8:57 in the morning here (Spanish time)
Going to eat something and go for a walk after that under a wanderful rainy day
Have a pretty nice day you all! ... juan.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Sat, 04 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #11
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3370 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
and in that natural freedom is where (real) Love arises ...

What is this “natural freedom” you refer to, Juan? Is it freedom FROM something? And what is the relationship of freedom to love? Would you say that they are in any way different? You refer to:
“ the freedom we had before entering in it ”

.…....

But I am on the point of cancelling this mail. My questions come from thought, and it seems you are coming from quite a different space altogether. Perhaps there is no way of meeting. One is feeling, seeing, the absolute limitation of thought. The only things that thought can share are ideas, is it not? That is a sobering thought in itself. And there is no freedom in thought.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #12
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 168 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
you are coming from quite a different space

No Clive, Juan is not in “higher spaceses, he is mixing up Love and romantic love.

Yes, romantic love can be experienced as vulnerable, but Love is not at all vulnerable it is everpresent, irreducible, and indestructible.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #13
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
No Clive, Juan is not in “higher spaceses, he is mixing up Love and romantic love.

So, you know more than me what i'm talking about, mmmh? ;-)

I have no time to answer now because i must leave, i will write something when i come back (or maybe tomorrow) ... Until then have a good time, Olive! :-) ;-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #14
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Yes, romantic love can be experienced as vulnerable, but Love is not at all vulnerable it is ever present, irreducible, and indestructible.

A very nice romantic image about love, Olive ... But i would like to know why do you interpret vulnerability as the possibility of somehow be hurt ... I listen to you

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 07 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #15
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 168 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
why do you interpret vulnerability as the possibility of somehow be hurt

I am not, but you are building walls to protect yourself from…. yes from what? ….being hurt?

Juan E wrote:
but we don't want others to know about that vulnerability in us, so it is because of this that we build walls pretending to love after from behind those individual walls

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #16
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 306 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
but you are building walls to protect yourself from

Will not be that in fact is you who are protecting, Olive?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 22 Mar 2017 #17
Thumb_ws_hp-wave_2560x1600 Mina Martini Finland 572 posts in this forum Offline

Dear love Clive,

Clive:>Knowing when to let go is indeed a challenging thing. At least it is challenging to the mind. Perhaps it is no challenge to love, because the letting go is an integral part of love, not separate from it.

Mina: Right. When pure love is, and there is no other kind of love, there is nothing but 'letting go' in it. (not even anyone to do so). There is no mind in love. There is only love in love. It is in the mind that a challenge is experienced, ultimately.

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