Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Silence .... hesitantly


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Thu, 16 Feb 2017 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

Awoke this morning very much seeing the mind for what it is. That is, a recording machine. A registration and play-back machine, although this process is compulsive and disorderly. If one has watched a movie one day, it is there in the mind the next day – at least parts of it, the parts that for some reason impressed themselves most deeply into the brain. At any time snatches of music, heard in the past, start to replay themselves in the mind. All sorts of experiences, painful and pleasurable, experiences that have etched themselves into the brain cells, replay themselves. And so the present is continually overwhelmed by the past. One could say the human problem is that the past is responding to the challenges of the present.

And it is the past reacting, in the form of images, that is so destructive of relationship throughout the day. And when I turned to read the news of the day, one was reminded of the full extent of this destructive capacity of the mind to register, recall, and act from that recall.

But it seems that this process is necessary at some level – it seems to have been Mankind's evolutionary path – the way of the accumulation of technical knowledge. Yet this capacity is operating far beyond the purely technical, and is in fact threatening our very existence, and that of most life on Earth.

So it seems essential to examine this process that is going on in the brain, registration and involuntary recall. Most of this recall could be described as a sort of noise – but a noise made vastly complicated by the self, the ego, the centre that thought has created – we can say the centre of the noise, perhaps.

And one asks, as many throughout human history have asked, is there a way out of this noise of the past? One could say that up to the present time, for the most part, these “way-outs” have consisted of the noise trying to quieten itself. I think here on this forum we would agree such methods are futile, no matter how subtle.

So if we put aside all such methods, is there anything else? Two words come to mind – awareness and silence, (not suggesting that these are separate things). Huguette has eloquently written on Awareness recently. I have been wanting to raise the issue of Silence – or rather continue the discussion Rip and I were having on the thread “The Pedestal”, but really not knowing how to approach it. Can Silence be approached out of noise, the noise of thought?

Will finish here for the moment.

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Sat, 18 Feb 2017 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So if we put aside all such methods, is there anything else? Two words come to mind – awareness and silence,

I said above that when asking if there exists anything outside of the noise of the mind, two words come to mind, awareness and silence. It came later there is perhaps a third – Intelligence.

I do not mean what is generally meant by the word intelligence, which refers to some capacity of the human brain. A capacity to get things done in the physical world. Is there an intelligence which permeates the universe, a force which implies order, harmony? When I look at the natural world there is a strong feeling this intelligence exists, as an active force.

Yet there is very little order in human affairs. Intelligence does not seem to be manifesting itself there. Rather there is disharmony, conflict, much unhappiness and suffering. Why? Why does Intelligence not act in the human arena?

Is it that the noise of the human mind does not let it in?

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Sat, 18 Feb 2017 #3
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
It came later there is perhaps a third – Intelligence.....
Intelligence does not seem to be manifesting itself there....
why does Intelligence not act in the human arena?...
Is it that the noise of the human mind does not let it in?

hello bonjour clive,

i would say that there is intelligence.. always. because life manifests suffering... that is intellingence and human mind cannot stops this process whith noise... what you named noise, can not stop it from being there. but, what you named noise, try to veil suffering during all human life.. here is a basic trap as i see it

This post was last updated by richard viillar Sat, 18 Feb 2017.

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Sun, 19 Feb 2017 #4
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Why does Intelligence not act in the human arena? Is it that the noise of the human mind does not let it in?

I was reflecting that the scientific meaning of the word “noise” is unwanted sound. It has a special meaning in electronics. If a radio telescope is trying to gather information from distant galaxies, the signal may be polluted, mixed up, by inadvertently picking up other signals, say from the Earth's atmosphere, or even the body of the telescope itself. These unwanted signals are known as noise. And they may become so large as to completely drown out the information, the signals that are wanted to be examined.

Is this what is happening to the brain? Needing to be in contact with the signals, the energies outside of itself, the energies of awareness, of intelligence, of love, that contact fails because of the noise the brain itself is generating.

The noise of the brain, of course, is thought. At least psychological thought, unnecessary thought.

So it may be that only in silence, in the absence of noise, can the brain be in contact with those essential energies outside of itself. And this is the significance, the meaning, of silence.

Just hesitantly.

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Sun, 19 Feb 2017 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
what you named noise, can not stop it from being there. but, what you named noise, try to veil suffering during all human life.. here is a basic trap as i see it

I am not sure that I am understanding you, Richard. You are saying, are you, that the noise of the mind may mask suffering, but not eliminate it, is that it?

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Sun, 19 Feb 2017 #6
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
You are saying, are you, that the noise of the mind may mask suffering, but not eliminate it, is that it?

Yes, The noise (egotic thought) trys to mask this manifestation (suffering) of intelligence of life. But cannot stop it. And to try to mask (which can be underlaying a trying to résolve suffering) it is as i see it, a false way. ..

This post was last updated by richard viillar Sun, 19 Feb 2017.

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Sun, 19 Feb 2017 #7
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Bon jour Richard, ça va?!

I must leave for a walk into nature with some friends, but i would like to understand the connection you make between 'suffering' and 'manifestation of intelligence of life'

So, if you have some time to expand on that I'll read you when come back home in the evening.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Sun, 19 Feb 2017 #8
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
i would like to understand the connection you make between 'suffering' and 'manifestation of intelligence of life'

hola Juan que tal?!

just to mean that as i see it the whole life is intelligence beyond all we can understand... for exemple the phenomenon of cause and effect is life also then intellingence of it, and all which results from that phenomenon is intelligence also, beyond all we can see in daily life (war and so on even earth instinction...).

i make that connection also because i see the manifestation of suffering it seems to me, as an instinct survival process of human species, which will explain why Buddha and K talk a lot of the necessity to don't try to avoid suffering but to take it as a starting point... it is here.. in our daily life available and accessible to all of us

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Sun, 19 Feb 2017 #9
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

I just have come back home ... YEP! Don't ask me why but i knew that Dan will pop up when i wrote my post this morning ;-) ... Hola Daniel y Ricardo, nice to meet you and talk with you both again ... Allow me to do some things here and i'll be with you in some minutes.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Mon, 20 Feb 2017 #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
Yes, The noise (egotic thought) trys to mask this manifestation (suffering) of intelligence of life. But cannot stop it. And to try to mask (which can be underlaying a trying to résolve suffering) it is as i see it, a false way. .

This may be a silly question, but let is run with it a while. What you say, Richard, implies that suffering is not part of the mind's noise. Are you sure that that is so?

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Mon, 20 Feb 2017 #11
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Good question clive.
So yes, today i can say that surffering is not the "noise". . Beyond all that, Suffering seems to be an energy, a sensation..

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #12
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Sorry for the delay ...

richard viillar wrote:
So yes, today i can say that suffering is not the "noise"

Would you say then that "noise" is the root cause of suffering ... And in any case, do you differentiate between psychological suffering and physical suffering, or do you consider there's only suffering which include both without any division? ...

On the other hand i would say that suffering is an energy when there's no division between the sufferer and the suffering, otherwise ... what would you say is suffering then?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #13
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Would you say then that "noise" is the root cause of suffering .

Well what i try to talk about hère is about what appear first.. in daily life. It's a sensation. I try here to not use the name. So first a sensation, an unpleasant sensation to me... And i try to escape this unpleasant sensation... then after what's hapen?

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
So yes, today i can say that surffering is not the "noise". . Beyond all that, Suffering seems to be an energy, a sensation..

Is noise not a sensation also? Or is it the blocking out of sensation?

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #15
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

" You cannot capture the immeasurable. You hands, your mind, your whole being must be quiet, completely still, to receive it. You cannot seek it, because you do not know what it is "

K, Collected Works vol X1 (1959) p238

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #16
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
Well what i try to talk about here is about what appear first.. in daily life. It's a sensation. I try here to not use the name.

Yes, that's why all my questions ... I've found your approach quite interesting, and it can bring us the opportunity to go together (i mean with any of us here) very slowly into it, without a preconceived image or idea of it, don't you think? ... And i hope someone in special will join us in that interesting inquire (at least i would like to listen him talking here), isn't it Daniel? ;-)

richard viillar wrote:
So first a sensation, an unpleasant sensation to me... And i try to escape this unpleasant sensation... then after what's happen?

Well, could we assume that we don't know what happens, leaving aside any external view about it, including that of K., and go into it from the beginning, which is (our own) sensation?

So yes, first there's a sensation: it happens that i have some bodily pain (sensation), and in my wish to become free of it (which to me doesn't mean exactly 'to escape from it'), i go to the doctor with the hope that he or she will give me some treatment to relieve that pain and eventually end with it ... But it happens that the doctor not only doesn't give me any treatment for the pain, but it says to me "you have a cancer" ...

Now, when does my suffering begin, at the initial sensation of pain, or when the doctor tells me that that pain is the consequence of a cancer, or one is the continuation of the other? ... And at what time begins that supposedly escape of which you're talking about, already at the initial pain, or at the news about the cancer?

So you see, we have here both kinds of suffering: physical as well as psychological ...

Now, are both of them just one and only one suffering? ... Are they divided from one each other? ... Does the ending of one of them end the other? ... Is one of them real and the other an hallucination? ... and so many questions more that could arise in our inquiry about it ...

So, can we leave aside by now our inquiry about what happens after i try to escape (or i try to become free) from an unpleasant sensation, and go deep into the sensation itself (either physical or psychological) together, leaving aside whatever others have said about it, including K. himself, and try to keep our feet on earth not flying to hight with our imagination?

Because all of us have had such kind of sensations in our lives in a way or another ... Therefore, can we speak on our own behalf, and not with the words of another for a moment?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 21 Feb 2017.

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #17
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
So first a sensation, an unpleasant sensation to me...

Let us back up a little.

First a sensation,----what happens here, before it becomes---- “an unpleasant sensation to me”, it becomes unpleasant for the separate self.

What happens with a sensation becoming an unpleasant sensation.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #18
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
What happens with a sensation becoming an unpleasant sensation.

What happens when you feel that unpleasant pain in your arm that is the signal of a soon to come heart attack?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #19
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is noise not a sensation also?

well, we go to see...

Clive Elwell wrote:
Or is it the blocking out of sensation?

it try to block..

Juan E wrote:
So you see, we have here both kinds of suffering: physical as well as psychological ...

maybe we can say together first, that there is two kinds of sensation... :

a sensation of a physysical/body hurting (which can be later pesonified, but it is too soon to talk about that at this point) and a sensation which don't come fom a physysical/body hurting but which is there which is feeled

Olive B wrote:
an unpleasant sensation to me

yes i/we try to begin from a starting point in daily life... i don't know that there is no I, i feel that i exist every moment, but i feel also other things like this sensation which don't come fom a physysical/body hurting but which is there which is feeled

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #20
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
i don't know that there is no I, i feel that i exist every moment,

YES! ... Could we start from here, leaving aside all we can know through others about the 'not I'? ... As we (the most of us, fellow human beings), don't know anything about the possibility that there's no I ...

So, can we start with that in relation to our labeling pleasant/unpleasant?

Unfortunately i must leave to go eat something outside with some friends
I'll come back in a couple of hours (i think) to continue with the dialogue (at least read your posts before going to sleep) ...

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Tue, 21 Feb 2017.

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #21
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

In relation to the topic of this thread, silence (or perhaps silence and noise), this is from the QOTD:

That is why we said there must be the observation of the inner and the outer which sharpens the brain. And this very sharpness of the brain makes it quiet.

Has anyone anything further to say about this last sentence?

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #22
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

It is not clear to me how the discussion that has developed about sensation is directly relevent to the topic of silence and noise (Although I acknowledge that everythig is connected in the investigation of the self) So how about starting a new thread for it?

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Tue, 21 Feb 2017 #23
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

So a very simple question arises:

Why is the brain so full of noise so much of the time?

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Wed, 22 Feb 2017 #24
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Why is the brain so full of noise so much of the time?

Because it try to escape to an unpleasant sensation. But i agree that it is not the starting point of your topic.. but There is à link...

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Wed, 22 Feb 2017 #25
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

Can we look at this together, Richard? I can see that trying to escape makes up at least part of the noise. But is it fundamentally the cause?

We are concerned with ourselves throughout the day, and perhaps into the night, Is this the essence of the noise of the mind? It seems important to look carefully at the noise. And to see noise AS noise, but without judging it.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2017 #26
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Yes ok...

To start from the unpleasant sensation, maybe seems to have no link because maybe it seems to be taken very upside down but in reality, it is (as i see it) at the right way out it seems..

So if We take it like that, in daily life i feel that unpleasant sensation, i don't ask me why it is there, it is an "old friend" but i feel it.. and it seems that i have this habit to look for what could get me a pleasant sensation isn't it? Are we all agree in this daily life fact (maybe i'm wrong)? And if it is the case, how am i looking for the way to have a pleasant sensation? And how often do i look for a way to feel good...?

This post was last updated by richard viillar Wed, 22 Feb 2017.

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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #27
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

I was having a coffee with a young friend yesterday. He was telling me of the pressures, conflicts that seem to be assailing him from all sides. When I first met him a couple of years ago, he was a most trouble-free young man, and a keen inquirer. The inquiry is still there, but I sometimes wonder if it can survive all the pressure, the contradiction, the lack of an intelligent approach to life, that comes at him from all around, since he started an intimate relationship, with a woman and her two children.

Suddenly he said:

“The only thing that comes from noise is noise”

although I had not bought up the issue of noise/silence with him at all. And he added:

“You can't get silence from noise. Silence doesn't arise from noise”.

Later on I texted him: “Can you be the eye of the hurricane?”

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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #28
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
“Can you be the eye of the hurricane?”

If we want to be the eye of the storm than we first have to, like the wind in the eye turn 180 degrees, towards the essence of the noise, and ask our selfs the question where does the noise come from.

The noise takes place in the mind. It is experienced by the mind.

So we must first know the nature of mind itself.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #29
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
“The only thing that comes from noise is noise”

yes, the only way the brain found is to end this unpleasant sensation... but this way (to end this unpleasant sensation) is as i see it, a false way, a trap. and more, it try to end it through the thought way, and to do that implie an augmentation of the unpleasant sensation and a round circle (noise)...

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #30
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3816 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
and ask our selfs the question where does the noise come from.

Yes, I have been doing this, Olive, asking this question, looking at the noise, examining it. And I feel it is important to see the noise AS noise. I mean in the end the noise has nothing of significance to say - although it is continually pretending that it has.

The significance of the noise is that it is blocking something, getting in the way, perhaps, of the real function of the brain - which is to receive something which is beyond itself. But it is no use the noise postulating what that something might be,

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