Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Is there no limit on the insanity of the human mind?


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Tue, 10 Jan 2017 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Is there no limit on the insanity of the human mind?

These are some things that President Elect Donald Trump recently said about nuclear weapons, nuclear war:

**He said he might use nuclear weapons and questioned why we would make them if we wouldn’t use them

He said he was open to nuking Europe because it’s a “big place”

He said that “you want to be unpredictable” with nuclear weapons

He said he wasn’t that worried about more countries getting nukes since “it’s not like, gee whiz, nobody has them”**

The effects of just a single nuclear bomb were made evident in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People are still suffering today

Hitomi Nakabe: “With nearly 200,000 survivors still alive, it is expected that many thousands will continue to need care for radiation related illnesses in the coming years while the psychological impact of the bombings continue to haunt even those survivors, not physically only”.

To help imagine the effects of a full blown nuclear war, the films “The Day After” and “Threads” are probably realistic, although it was stated that the effects were understated in the films. How can anyone contemplate the infinite suffering and devastation without crying?

Yet here is the President Elect contemplating the use of nuclear weapons. And I believe that president Putin of Russia also believes that a nuclear war is “winnable'

So the fate of the planet rests on the machinations of a couple of egos. Concepts of a nuclear war are entertained, played with like some sort of game which apparently is not related to the actuality of immense human suffering, millions or billions of people, children suffering horrendous burns and injuries, a slow agonising death from radiation sickness, with no possibility of any medical treatment among the rubble of civilisation.

Scientists have now documented the “nuclear winter” that would follow such a war, making it just about impossible for any life to survive.

Is there no limit to human insanity. This is not a rhetorical question. Is there no limit? Thought itself is limited, but is the insanity of thought limited?

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Tue, 10 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 10 Jan 2017 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Scientists have now documented the “nuclear winter” that would follow such a war, making it just about impossible for any life to survive.

Maybe this is Trump's answer on the global warming and make an end to human interference.
As thought must see its own craziness by acting as if it's boss instead of a tool to handle carefully !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 10 Jan 2017 #3
Thumb_img_1496 Per . Sweden 96 posts in this forum Offline

Well. Much more insanity and non of us will survive. See? A limit right there!

Mr T is our alarm clock, our wake up call. And how much louder can it be? How much louder does it need to be?

The consequence of sin is death. And "sin" is missing the mark. And what is then the mark?

The mark is to live, move and have our being I communion with what is. To act from the realization that we are the totality of life. And this is what we need to wake up to.

This post was last updated by Per . Tue, 10 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 10 Jan 2017 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

"The Urgency of Change" was the title of one of K's books. Of course he means that change must start in you and me. We can't wait around expecting Trump and Putin to change.

Let it Be

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Tue, 10 Jan 2017 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Per . wrote:
Much more insanity and non of us will survive. See? A limit right there!

Yes, I missed that one Per.

However, if a few human beings were to survive whatever catastrophe (a word being used by more and more scientists) takes us out, and were to somehow 'rebuild' society, slowly create a new civilisation, would it actually be new? Or would it contain the seed of its own destruction right from the start, as it would be based on the same flawed human consciousness? The poison, the virus, would continue, will continue, until there is a fundamental change in human consciousness.

Per . wrote:
Mr T is our alarm clock, our wake up call. And how much louder can it be? How much louder does it need to be?

Good question, Per. But we do seem to be deaf in this respect. With two world wars in the last century, over a hundred million killed in sectarian/national conflicts, one would think that would have made quite a loud enough noise. We have been within a hair's breath of a nuclear war, that should have woken us up. But it didn't. People are clinging as much as ever to their stupid identifications, their beliefs, their nationalities. They cannot work together to solve our human problems.

Per . wrote:
The mark is to live, move and have our being I communion with what is. To act from the realization that we are the totality of life. And this is what we need to wake up to.

Indeed Per, you are right. And even if 'the worst came to the worst', and we were awaiting a lingering and agonising death in the radioactive ruins of civilisation, even then to be aware of ourselves, to understand the human mind, remains the point of human existence, does it not?

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Tue, 10 Jan 2017 #6
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We can't wait around expecting Trump and Putin to change.

No question there! I guess they have found in their position ways of boosting their egos, of self aggrandizement. Until they are eventually deposed. A pity we created this whole notion of “leaders” in the first place.

Tom Paine wrote:
"The Urgency of Change" was the title of one of K's books. Of course he means that change must start in you and me.

Again, no question that the situation is urgent. It absolutely demands our urgent attention.

But does it get it? Do we respond that way? Do we really have that sense of urgency? I know I don't a lot of the time. I read some news item, watch some documentary about some aspect of the human tragedy, and feel things very strongly, with maybe tears. But then it fades. I get caught up with trivial things, Engrossed in accomplishing little things for myself that have no essential meaning. Caught up in this pattern that is being described on another thread of desire-fulfilment-frustration-deisre-fulfilment-frustration.

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #7
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive:>But does it get it? Do we respond that way? Do we really have that sense of urgency? I know I don't a lot of the time. I read some news item, watch some documentary about some aspect of the human tragedy, and feel things very strongly, with maybe tears. But then it fades. I get caught up with trivial things, Engrossed in accomplishing little things for myself that have no essential meaning. Caught up in this pattern that is being described on another thread of desire-fulfilment-frustration-deisre-fulfilment-frustration.

Mina: We are talking about passion here, talking about giving all our energy and attention to something so that the very intensity does not allow waste of energy that is always there in the mind which is split into thinker and thought.

And the denser the darkness (in the form of Trump for instance), the stronger the call to respond in this quality of passion in which only such madness can be drowned. A tsunami of passion is being called for, T. not realising, (no thought can realise that) he can in fact be a very strong awakening call.

When I read your paragraph above, the feeling came..that passion sees no 'trivial things' as opposed to 'serious things'...simply because it does not judge. It is not the thing that matters but in what way we do anything at all. Passion has no opposites. It is its own urgency, in whatever it does.

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
A tsunami of passion is being called for, T. not realising, (no thought can realise that) he can in fact be a very strong awakening call.

But Clive was asking above, if we really have that sense of urgency...the passion you describe....or do we get easily caught up in desire/fulfillment? You haven't addressed Clive's question, I don't think. Why is that passion/urgency missing? Talking with an old friend some years back...a friend who lived through the Holocaust years....he spent his whole adult life committed to doing 'good'. That was his response to the monstrous evil he saw during the Nazi years. But this 'do gooding' was a fragmentary activity, I think.....putting all his efforts into working for 'liberal' causes....fighting poverty...demonstrating against the war in Vietnam, etc....not the total action that transforms man...the kind of action K was talking about. I want to add here, that many others succumb to despair when confronted with the 'evil' in man. Or when the despair is too frightening to face, one picks up some entertainment or hobby, or gets involved in some work, trying to do some 'good'. One loses on self in the work of fighting some injustice or other, like my friend did for his whole adult life. Or one says, the hell with trying to do good, I will just live in the pursuit of simple pleasures like my grandmother did her whole 92 years of living. Living for good food, dining out, shopping, making an attractive and clean home, nice clothes and physical appearance, trips regularly to the beauty parlor, fussing with her hair and make up, chit chat with friends over dinner or drinks, you know how so many financially secure folks spend their free time.

Clive again: "Do we respond that way(with passion)? Do we really have that sense of urgency? I know I don't a lot of the time. I read some news item, watch some documentary about some aspect of the human tragedy, and feel things very strongly, with maybe tears. But then it fades. I get caught up with trivial things, Engrossed in accomplishing little things for myself that have no essential meaning. Caught up in this pattern that is being described on another thread of desire-fulfilment-frustration-deisre-fulfilment-frustration.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 11 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #9
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Talking with an old friend some years back...a friend who lived through the Holocaust years....he spent his whole adult life committed to doing 'good'. That was his response to the monstrous evil he saw during the Nazi years. But this 'do gooding' was a fragmentary activity, I think.....putting all his efforts into working for 'liberal' causes....fighting poverty...demonstrating against the war in Vietnam, etc....not the total action that transforms man...the kind of action K was talking about.

Tom,

If we have an idea what total action is, it's not total action but thought!

If one accept the total action that transforms man... happened to K.
we are still in the realm of seeking proof of such a thing ....

One could asked a lot of crazy questions like:
why did his total action not prevent the second world war...
or the liberation war from India and England...
the invasion of Russia in tsjecho slovakia etc... etc...?????

So it seems to me that this total action that transform man is still in action
and as such on the move and in need of serious people who observe
and seeing the urge and have the passion....to L O V E .

and in having that one act....
and that acting can take all kind of forms even the one your friend has done,
but please don't put a stamp on it as good or not good enough....
every serious human being acts accordingly by his or her talents.

I love your input ;-)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
that acting can take all kind of forms even the one your friend has done,
but please don't put a stamp on it as good or not good enough....

Yes, I think you're probably right, Wim. I wrote that it wasn't the total action K spoke of because I knew so many like my friend who led disordered lives, and at the same time battled against the disorder in the world....fought for civil rights for Blacks....fought against he Vietnam war....and so on. But you're right that thinking about the total action of K. is surely nothing to do with the total action. But we still haven't answered the question Clive asked above....why do we lose the sense of urgency or passion when faced with the horrible disorder in the world?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 11 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #11
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
A tsunami of passion is being called for, T. not realising, (no thought can realise that) he can in fact be a very strong awakening call.

Yes, the greater the challenge, the more it can bring about real learning. Although it is difficult to say what "greater" means in this respect, as it can lie in seemingly inconsequential things. Which suggests that nothing IS inconsequential, in essence.

But Mina, you say "we are talking of passion here" - But I was talking of the lack of passion. That passion, to use your word, that sense of urgency, to use my phrase, is certainly not always with me, at least. I cannot speak for you, or anyone else. But I want to face what is, not escape from it ( it being the lack of urgency) by inventing a concept of the opposite. This gets nowhere, except into self deception.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Wed, 11 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #12
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
every serious human being acts accordingly by his or her talents.

Hi Win

But also, would you not say, every serious individual is dissatisfied with whatever he does? And it is this disatisfaction that drives a serious individual?

Wim Opdam wrote:
If we have an idea what total action is, it's not total action but thought

Yes, good comment Wim.

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #13
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I wrote that it wasn't the total action K spoke of because I knew so many like my friend who led disordered lives, and at the same time battled against the disorder in the world....fought for civil rights for Blacks....fought against he Vietnam war....and so on.

It may be, Tom, that engaging in any form of "social action" (and I am not criticising such action) is a factor in not having this sense of urgency about inner change - because we are able to convince ourselves that we already have changed, or that we already are acting with urgency.

Thank you for the encouragegment to stick to my question, Tom.

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Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #14
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
It may be, Tom, that engaging in any form of "social action" (and I am not criticising such action) is a factor in not having this sense of urgency about inner change - because we are able to convince ourselves that we already have changed, or that we already are acting with urgency.

I think it can also give one a sense of complacency...."I am on the side of the good and just." Therefore one need not look deeply into the disorder in one's own life. Also, I found a great deal of self righteousness and division in some of the 'do gooders' I used to know. We liberals are the good ones. We're superior. The folks on the right...the conservatives...are inferior in some fundamental way to US. The old us vs. them game. This is why their actions can never heal the division in the world. They're based upon internal division....right vs wrong...me vs you....us vs them.

Let it Be

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Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #15
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But also, would you not say, every serious individual is dissatisfied with whatever he does? And it is this disatisfaction that drives a serious individual?

Hi Clive,

The word as well as the feeling of 'dissatisfied' seems not the drive, is it not the seeing of incompleteness..... the mess in the world.... what drives us to the search ??

Reading: "In The Presence of Krishnamurti: The Memoirs of Mary Zimbalist "
one can see a lot of misunderstanding and holding to the old ideas of the theosofists going on around K. too and it seems he couldn't stop talking despite of that.
Thanks to Scott and Mary zimbalist among others he got also a lot of love.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 12 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #16
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But we still haven't answered the question Clive asked above....why do we lose the sense of urgency or passion when faced with the horrible disorder in the world?

HI Tom,

Are we loosing the sense of urgency or passion ??

We might not express it in the way K. did it all his live, but are those actions of stopping the Viëtnam war and having the first black president splinters of this total action for humanity?

Even the protests against the president elect, his brutal way of communication could be part of that action of humanity!

I'm not saying it is, but could be who knows ... I don't know!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 12 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #17
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 415 posts in this forum Offline

K certainly seems to have had that sense of urgency and passion. He may have had moments of despair, depression or discouragement but he spoke undeterred, steadfastly for over 50 years, pointing to the facts of the disorderly mind and its chaotic consequences. Even though for the most part his words were not understood, he did not give up, he took no measure of his success or failure.

And when Buddha spoke thousands of years ago, perhaps there wasn’t the urgency of an impending cataclysm, but the passion was there. Should K and Buddha have refrained from speaking for their entire lives because they did not get a certain result or outcome? Would it be “better” if they had not spoken? It seems they acted without force, in a way which was natural to them. They did not go into hiding with their understanding but went into the world and shared their perfume. Korczak too could have said, “well those children are going to be killed anyway, there’s no reason for me to go with them”.

While we do not have that depth of understanding as Buddha or K or others, whatever understanding (or misunderstanding) we have, we share by the simple fact of living it, don’t we? And even K’s understanding deepened through the years, as is natural for all of us. Life is not static.

At age 85, he said he had reached the ground (I'm not saying he did):

he [K speaking of himself] woke up to
find something totally different and
new. The movement had reached the
source of all energy. This must in no
way be confused with, or even thought
of, as god or the highest principle,
the Brahman, which are projections of
the human mind out of fear and
longing, the unyielding desire for
total security. It is none of those
things. Desire cannot possibly reach
it, words cannot fathom it nor can the
string of thought wind itself around
it. One may ask with what assurance do
you state that it is the source of all
energy? One can only reply with
complete humility that it is so. All
the time that K was in India until the
end of January 1980 every night he
would wake up with this sense of the
absolute. It is not a state, a thing
that is static, fixed, immovable. The
whole universe is in it, measureless
to man. When he returned to Ojai in
February 1980, after the body had
somewhat rested, there was the
perception that there was nothing
beyond this. This is the ultimate, the
beginning and the ending and the
absolute. There is only a sense of
incredible vastness and immense
beauty." Source: Lutyens, Mary.
Krishnamurti: The Years of Fulfilment,
(New York.: Avon Books, 1983) pp.
237-238.

[This movement that K experienced is also referenced in The Ending of Time. Huguette]

I think that there is no denying that the crisis in consciousness, in relationship, in thought, is more dangerous than ever - what with weapons of mass destruction, climate change, overpopulation, disappearing forests and desertification, melting ice caps and rising sea levels, political correctness, technology in communications, in medicine, and so on.

Whatever all the factors to the crisis are, the fundamental problem is still conditioning, self as the centre of the universe, isn’t it? So, if this is clear, even with our limited understanding, are we not doing what we can? Understanding acts, doesn’t it? Perhaps this is what is meant by Vimala’s words suggesting that we do not respect our understanding. Not “respect” so much - which is a positive approach - as not striving to exploit it, not trying to force a desired result - which is approaching it negatively. We are focused on the result, we want the outcome, and so we think we should be doing more because our efforts are clearly not "working". And we have no idea of what that more “should be”.

This is how it looks from my window.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 12 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Even the protests against the president elect, his brutal way of communication could be part of that action of humanity!

I'm not saying it is, but could be who knows ... I don't know!

I could say a lot about this issue, Wim, but I'm pressed for time at the moment. I had quite a few friends and acquaintances who were dedicated to anti-war protests....civil rights.....environmental issues....so I saw close up how fragmented their actions seemed....fragmented in the sense of trying to end the violence 'out there' in the world while not addressing the violence and conflict and disorder in their own lives. Some on the left were even shouting insults at the 'other side'...calling the cops "pigs", etc....exacerbating the division. The total action K spoke of sees the cause of violence in 'me' and ends it there where it begins. I could be off base, but this is my understanding....to end violence in me is the only way to end violence....disorder...in the world/society. If I quarrel with my wife and child regularly, I am spreading violence...disorder...even though I join an anti war protest. I saw an example of this close hand....a friend who couldn't even make peace at home trying to bring peace to the 'world'.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 12 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #19
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 597 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The total action K spoke of sees the cause of violence in 'me' and ends it there where it begins.
I could be off base, but this is my understanding....to end violence in me
is the only way to end violence....disorder...in the world/society.

I agree Tom, that's why I called it splinters !

Huguette . wrote:
This is how it looks from my window.

Dear Huguette,

it's as if we are looking through the same window ;-)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #20
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
We are focused on the result, we want the outcome, and so we think we should be doing more because our efforts are clearly not "working". And we have no idea of what that more “should be”. This is how it looks from my window.

Mine too, Huguette, in essence.

Would you say that, whe we examine the world and ourelves - basically the same movement - any idea of action that may arise is always actually a REaction? And as such, it is not really any action at all, only a continuation of the problem? It is the focussing on an outcome that you mention, but as such it is always an idea only, never actual.

in essence all such reaction is an escape, or an attempt at escape, from what we actually are. I think this is true at ANY level, no matter how profoundly one is examining, looking. Because the thinker, the actor, is always thought.

So one is left with the issue: can one just look? Look without judgement, without any reaction at all - because reaction is always the end of looking.

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #21
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

There is no limit, Clive. Donald Trump is a mere answer to the past. And it is not a more noble answer than Hillary or Jill, or Kasich. When we, as Hillary supporters, or Trump supporters divide ourselves.. that is the problem..

Donald Trump does not have the initiative to solve the worlds problems.. Nor did Hillary or Jill or Kasich....

As Krishnamurti pointed out, it must first be solved in each one of us... We must each, first free ourselves from this rotten social structure.. And when we actually do have the capacity to do that.. Then we dont wonder if a politician is going to save us or take sides as Hillary or Trump supporters.

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #22
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 766 posts in this forum Offline

The whole notion of 'leaders' seems to be a carry-over from when we lived in caves.

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 #23
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
When we, as Hillary supporters, or Trump supporters divide ourselves.. that is the problem..

Yes this is a good point. The whole business of politics encourages division between people. And it is this division that is the cause of so many problems. Not the fundamental cause, of course.

I can doubt most things, but I do not doubt that politics cannot solve our human problems. And when political solutions fail to work, what is the response? To try another political solution. All in the same pattern. All in ignorance of the fact that it is human nature that is the fundamental problem. But while people believe that politics CAN solve the problem, while they are following leaders, they cannot look any deeper.

All this politics absorbs so much of human energy. Look at the News – so occupied with political figures, what they said, what they did. As if it makes any real difference. And politics is not going to vote itself out of existence. And ….... but no point in going on about it.

Link Smickman wrote:
As Krishnamurti pointed out, it must first be solved in each one of us... We must each, first free ourselves from this rotten social structure.. And when we actually do have the capacity to do that..

Can we look at this? Because what we are IS this 'rotten, social structure', is it not? What we are IS all the conditioning that has been fed into the brain by the political systems, by the religious beliefs, by the various cultures........ This has been going on for many thousands of years, no? Human consciousness has been built up this way, there is no other consciousness apart from it. And this is what we are.

If one accepts this, then what does it mean to free ourselves from the social structure, when we ARE the social structure? What does the freeing, and what does “freeing” mean precisely?

If you are interested to go into this, Link, perhaps you would start a new topic, a new thread, with your response?

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 #24
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 766 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So one is left with the issue: can one just look? Look without judgement, without any reaction at all - because reaction is always the end of looking.

This in a way is the first and only issue: Can there be a total non-movement, a total non-action in the face of 'what is'?

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 #25
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
This in a way is the first and only issue: Can there be a total non-movement, a total non-action in the face of 'what is'?

I was asking myself, why does the mind keeping reacting to itself? Why does it resist itself so much? In the guise of the independent thinker, it reacts to every thought by disike, control, suppression, improvement, rationalisation - which is also a form of resistance. Why is thought so divided? Clearly this is the root of human conflict.

What I have just posted as a new thread "My thoughts are not my thoughts" is very relevant to this question..

So seeing this ever-lasting conflictual movement of the mind, which is so painful; and so destructive in its manifestation between nations and all human groups, your question naturally arises Dan. Can the self stop reacting, stop reisting the mind?

Clearly I cannot do anything to stop it, since I am the action of the self. But I wonder if this really is clearly seen?

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Sat, 28 Jan 2017 #26
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

As k pointed out, the solution to the worlds problems starts in each one of us. If we arent even honest enough to be able to communicate then we cannot solve the problems. True communication is all that is needed to solve the worlds problems.

Current politics prevent this communication. One is not allowed to be honest enough to understand their thoughts, reaction, appetites and instincts. One is told to suppress them and shun them. How can one understand like that?

Do you understand what that word `respectability' means? You are respectable when you are looked up to, respected by a majority of the people around you. And what do the majority of people respect - the people of the family, the people of the mass? They respect the things which they themselves want and which they have projected as a goal or an ideal; they respect that which they see to be in contrast with their own more lowly state. If you are rich and powerful, or have a big name politically, or have written successful books, you are respected by the majority. What you say may be utter nonsense, but when you talk, people listen because they regard you as a great man. And when you have thus won the respect of the many, the following of the multitude, it gives you a sense of respectability a feeling of having arrived. But the so-called sinner is nearer to God than the respectable man, because the respectable man is clothed in hypocrisy.

J. Krishnamurti Life Ahead Part One Chapter 15

According to this k would not have been politically correct. Alot of people would think he wasnt leaving his privledge at the door. This sin that he speaks of is no different than the sin political correctness labels honesty. One must learn from honesty or else we have this mess on our hands and without initiative being allowed in anyone no resolute comes from it.

Alot of white people who promote political correctness right now are also promoting a kind of strict communism. Resolution cannot come from this and these people are rooted in irresponsibility. They just want to party basically.

Is character the outcome of imitation, of being controlled by the fear of what people will say or won't say? Is character the mere strengthening of one's own tendencies, prejudices? Is it an upholding of the tradition, whether of India, of Europe or America? That is generally called having character - being a strong person who supports the local tradition and so is respected by the many. But when you are prejudiced, imitative, bound by tradition, or when you are frightened, is there intelligence, is there character? Imitating, following, worshipping, having ideas - that way leads to respectability, but not to understanding. A man of ideals is respectable; but he will never be near God, he will never know what it is to love, because his ideals are a means of covering up his fear, his imitation, his loneliness.

So, without understanding yourself, without being aware of all that is operating in your own mind - how you think, whether you are copying, imitating, whether you are frightened, whether you are seeking power - , there cannot be intelligence. And it is intelligence that creates character, not hero worship or the pursuit of an ideal. The understanding of oneself, of one's own extraordinarily complicated self, is the beginning of intelligence, which reveals character."

J. Krishnamurti Life Ahead Part One Chapter 15

One can easily apply this to political correctness and see the absurdity of our attitude here. And yet we attack the ones who question this attitude mindlessly.

I mean, come on here... This is just basic Krishnamurti. Why do we have such a hard time with this? Why are we so torn between political correctness and Krishnamurtis teachings? Why do we spend so much of our time swayed away from Krishnamurtis message?

Questioner: Is the power of understanding the same in all persons?

Krishnamurti: Suppose something true is presented to you and you see the truth of it very quickly; your understanding is immediate because you have no barriers. You are not full of your own importance, you are eager to find out, so you perceive immediately. But I have many barriers, many prejudices. I am jealous torn by conflicts based upon envy, full of my own importance. I have accumulated many things in life, and I really do not want to see; therefore I do not see, I do not understand.

J. Krishnamurti Life Ahead Part One Chapter 15

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Sun, 29 Jan 2017 #27
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3851 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
One can easily apply this to political correctness and see the absurdity of our attitude here. And yet we attack the ones who question this attitude mindlessly.
I mean, come on here... This is just basic Krishnamurti. Why do we have such a hard time with this? Why are we so torn between political correctness and Krishnamurtis teachings? Why do we spend so much of our time swayed away from Krishnamurtis message?

Hi Link, when you say "here" are you meaning the forum? And above, who are the "we" you speak of? I personally would not attempt to speak for anyone else, or try to describe anyone else's views - or even assume that they have views.

I don't think that I find myself torn between K's teachings and anything really. If there is any "tearing" is comes from the action of fear, and the pursuit of peasure, does it not? And both are images. If it happens, it can only be watched.

I do not want to be defensive, but here on this forum one can write whatever one feels true, fitting. One can assert, one can question, argue - and expect to be questioned. There is no suppresion (there is just the one rule about not personally attacking another).

Link Smickman wrote:
Current politics prevent this communication. One is not allowed to be honest enough to understand their thoughts, reaction, appetites and instincts. One is told to suppress them and shun them. How can one understand like that?

Clearly one cannot. And again, it is our fear that is behind all this. If one is not honest, it is fear preventing it - not really a question of "not being allowed to"

Link Smickman wrote:
. True communication is all that is needed to solve the worlds problems.

Looking at this statement. What is actually meant by "true" here? Honesty and simplicity I can understand. But Link, is there not something more basic? I mean what will bring about true communication? It is not, in general, happening now (we basically have a society based on lies), so what might make it happen?

I cannot change other people, and one is drawn back to the K quote you gave in your opening sentence:

"The solution to the worlds problems starts in each one of us"

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