Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Negative thinking


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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #1
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1495 posts in this forum Offline

I'm posting this QOTD to see if it resonates with anyone. I've read other excerpts from K on this 'negative thinking' and if I can dig them up, I'll share them here. But let's start with the QOTD. What does K mean by 'negative thinking'?:

" Now, because the individual, you and I, are not creative, we have reduced society to this chaos. So, you and I have to be creative, because the problem is urgent; you and I must be aware of the causes of the collapse of society and create a new structure based, not on mere imitation, but on our creative understanding. Now, this implies, does it not negative thinking? Negative thinking is the highest form of understanding ... To understand that which is crumbling, we must investigate it, examine it negatively, not with a positive system, a positive formula, a positive conclusion."

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 04 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Tom

if one understands deeply that the presentation of facts is not true, leads towards truth. For the unknown can be said that it is never what is said. !!

The acting always takes place between the rising and the going off ;-().

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #3
Thumb_stringio David T United Kingdom 150 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom,
Best description that comes is that negative thinking negates thinking. An example to me is to ask myself'is this thought really necessary'. If it isn't then it naturally disappears. Whereas if it is necessary for sustaining the necessary then it remains. It is like asking ones own intelligence whether or not this particulate thinking is necessary,no need to analyse it,the negative is negated by the negative.
Regards John.
The question as to whether or not this thinking is necessary has not been asked otherwise there would be nothing to say:)

I am a figment of my and your imagination

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #4
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1495 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
if one understands deeply that the presentation of facts is not true, leads towards truth.

So we move beyond conclusions, is this what you're getting at in post #2, Wim?

Let it Be

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #5
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1495 posts in this forum Offline

David T wrote:
Best description that comes is that negative thinking negates thinking.

Thinking negates thinking, John? This seems somewhat confusing. What does K mean by 'investigate' or 'examine'? From K.: "To understand that which is crumbling, we must investigate it, examine it negatively"

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 04 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #6
Thumb_img_1496 Per . Sweden 85 posts in this forum Offline

It seems to me that negative thinking is somewhat related to deconstruction (and positive thinking related to construction). In negative thinking you deconstruct your own constructions until there is the bare bone of "what is". And "what is" a creation av an intelligence far beyond what we with our petty minds can comprehend.

This post was last updated by Per . Wed, 04 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So we move beyond conclusions, is this what you're getting at in post #2, Wim?

I've no idea if it's beyond conclusions, but I do like the reply from Per:

Per . wrote:
you deconstruct your own constructions until there is the bare bone of "what is"

So by 'decontructing' ones thoughts there is the arise of space towards an empty and quiet mind.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #8
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 531 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
So by 'decontructing' ones thoughts there is the arise of space towards an empty and quiet mind.

And the 'process of thought', the 'mechanism' of thought can more and more be seen for what it is and its dominance in the mind decreases.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #9
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

That is, sir, how can you love, how can there be love when there is self-centred activity? - either of righteousness, or smug respectability, or of ambition, greed, envy, competition, which are all positive processes of thought. How can you love? You can't, it is impossible. You can pretend, you can use the word 'love', be very emotional, sentimental, very loyal, but that is nothing whatsoever to do with love. And to understand what it is you have to understand this positive thing called thinking.
J.K., Talk 6, Bombay, 02 March 1966

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #10
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

To negate what is false,

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #11
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

Time bound thinking, and thinker is past is false

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #12
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

Can this movement of time as thinker and thinking, end , ?can time bound self end ? This illusion called self end ?

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #13
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

Man wants to keep this false , and work round it , hoping to get at truth through it , it will never happen, he does not want to see this

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #14
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
And the 'process of thought', the 'mechanism' of thought can more and more be seen for what it is and its dominance in the mind decreases.

Dan,

It doesn't feel good to speak about 'more and more' because there is the suggestion
of a path to go and looking back seeing this same suggestion is in my using 'towards'
it is the consequence of the deconstruction which gives arise for space,
which is a necessity for an empty and quiet mind !!

It's one action altogether !!
If one is going to use it as a process it's back on the road of the 'ME'.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #15
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 468 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
Man wants to keep this false , and work round it , hoping to get at truth through it.

David,
Man does see the false as true and building on it, that is the wrong foundation !!

david sharma wrote:
it will never happen, he does not want to see this

first of all: it will never happen is a claim for the future !!
and secondly: he does not want to see this ?
Man want to hold on the truth, man thinks they already have !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 05 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #16
Thumb_ws_hp-wave_2560x1600 Mina Martini Finland 533 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Per:>you deconstruct your own constructions until there is the bare bone of "what is"

Wim:So by 'decontructing' ones thoughts there is the arise of space towards an empty and quiet mind.

Mina: I also loved the way Per put it...

Yes, this 'negative thinking' is the same as 'negation of thought, or the undoing of thought, which IS the arising of space, emptiness, quieteness.., as one..

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #17
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1495 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
And to understand what it is you have to understand this positive thing called thinking.
J.K., Talk 6, Bombay, 02 March 1966

Understanding what thought does is "negative thinking"? Understanding what is "postitive thinking" or striving towards some end or other? I wanted to come back to that phrase which started the thread... negative thinking. What does it mean to "deconstruct your own constructions"...the phrase Per and Wim have been using? Can anyone translate that to common everyday language?

"To understand that which is crumbling, we must investigate it, examine it negatively, not with a positive system, a positive formula, a positive conclusion." (K.)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 05 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #18
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1495 posts in this forum Offline

I found a more complete excerpt from K. on the subject of negative thinking on John's forum (comments added by John in the parentheses):

SO SPOKE KRISHNAMURTI IN 1958 (In Madras)

(...) I hope you are listening rather than just 'hearing' because I want to go into something rather difficult: as I was saying, the 'negative' thinking is the highest form of thinking. We usually think only positively. That is, we think from a conclusion to an (upgraded ?) conclusion, from a pattern to a pattern, from a system to a system. ( But psychologically-wise ?) that way of thinking only leads to further limitation of the mind, to narrowness of the mind, to pettiness of action; it always strengthens the self-centred activity. Negative thinking is something entirely different - if I can understand the (iinward) limitations of positive thinking, which invariably leads to self-centred activity, then there is (an opportunity for ?) a new awakening in negative thinking. This 'negative thinking' is not thinking in terms of ( previously known ?) patterns and has no causation.

We will approach it differently: the negative way of thinking is the maintenance, the sustenance of the (holistic ?) quality that is discontent - discontent in itself, not with something. A radical (inner) transformation is only in the negative thinking, as we saw in relation to attachment and to discontent. The 'positive' thinking leads (inwardly) only to a dull mind, an insensitive mind, a mind that is not capable of reception, a mind that thinks only in terms of its own security - either the security of the individual or of the family, group or race.

Nobody thinks of this whole world as "ours", nobody says, 'let us do something together about it'. Instead, we have this fragmentary way of thinking which we call 'positive'. If I can see that, then there is a different approach, a different feeling of the mind : there is the love of the earth - not your earth and my earth, you cultivating your little field and I cultivating mine, and quarrelling over it, but it is our earth.

Now when we see that (ultimately) this positive way of thinking is destructive, then the 'negative way' comes into being. To think negatively there must be ( a total) sensitivity, sensitivity both to the beautiful and to the ugly. The appreciation of the beauty of a tree, a leaf, the reflection on still waters, is not sensitivity if you are not also aware of the squalor, the dirt, the way you eat, the way you talk, the way you think, the way of your behaviour.
( Inwardly speaking ?) Creation is not 'positive', ever. Creation is the state of mind in which there is no 'positive' (self-centred ?) action as we know it.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 05 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #19
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 216 posts in this forum Offline

re: #17

I have a difficult relationship with someone. From zero to 100 mph in a flash, over and over, I and "the other" exchange 2 words and all the old resentment, anger, grudges, the past, images, history erupt into anger, hurt, fear and accusations. Our relationship is marked with explosive exchanges, followed by a hiatus which is calm and quiet on the surface.... until the next eruption when all the past is rehashed and the pain of it resurfaces. Until then, we carry on with our usual interbellum relationship, calm on the surface with all the old emotions seething beneath the surface. Nothing is "resolved".

I ask myself, "What in heaven's name do I do about this problem once and for all?" I really can't stand it. I want it to end. And I make new resolutions, new plans for dealing with it ... all of which is positive thinking, the intellect taking action, isn't it?

This relationship is my problem. Approaching the problem through the intellect can only exacerbate the problem, no? In such an approach, I must first analyze the past --- because I think that the solution to any problem lies in analyzing the past, and from there, putting together a plan.

A plan based on knowledge - positive thinking - is necessary for building a house, for logistics, and so on. But a plan for dealing with an interpersonal problem is doomed to fail, isn't it? In the heat of battle, it is the same old mind - self - still dealing with the problem ... no matter how great the plan is in theory, "on paper", the plan goes right out the window. That repetitive, circular approach of positive thinking is the rut the mind makes for itself.

In such analysis, there is no actual understanding of the problem, is there? Analysis of the soil, of building materials, of climate, of science and technology, and so on - is necessary to build a solid building. Soil, materials, climate, etc., can be rationally, scientifically analyzed. The soil is right there, physically, under the microscope. But how can past history be analyzed in such a way as to be complete, true and correct? How can "analyzing" the root of a personal problem build a strong, happy relationship? How can resolutions and a plan deal with emotions that explode?

So, isn't it clear to the intellect that analysis of past behaviour, of past history --- which is positive thinking --- is erroneous in this field? Is it an error to say so?

The problem then is ... what? Isn't it the actual pain, anger and fear I feel in the actual moment and the powerlessness and cluelessness to do anything about it? I'm asking, I'm not saying it's so. If I'm busy striking back, analyzing or revising the past, there is no attention to what actually is going on, there is denying what actually is - the actual pain, anger and fear.

Negative thinking then is awareness, observation, attention, isn't it? Dare I say "meditation"? Wordless, effortless observation of "what is" happening - my reactions, anger, blame, self-recrimination, fear, desire, and so on. Not out of an expectation of results or rewards but because the error of positive thinking where it does not belong is seen.

That attention is negative thinking, isn't it? Awareness, observation, attention is not an empty vacuum - there is something going on, there is energy, but not the energy of positive thinking, of effort. It is not the putting together of a "positive" plan of action.

Now, negative thinking is not the
opposite of positive thinking; it is
quite a different state, a different
process; and I think one has to
understand that clearly before we can
go any further. Negative thinking is
to denude the mind totally; negative
thinking is to make the brain, which
is the repository of reactions, quiet.

SAANEN 7TH PUBLIC TALK 8TH AUGUST 1961

This post was last updated by Huguette . Fri, 06 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #20
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 216 posts in this forum Offline

.... and isn't silent, choiceless attention, observation, awareness, the ending of self ... the death of self? ... different words used by K (and others) pointing to what actually is .... different words pointing to what words cannot express ... but which nonetheless can be understood .... I think :-)

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #21
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1495 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Not out of an expectation of results or rewards but because the error of positive thinking where it does not belong is seen.

Yes, negative thinking comes about as you say above. Excellent post (19) Huguette....very helpful in clarifying this somewhat confusing phrase K sometimes used.

Let it Be

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