Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Trump and other manifestations of our deteriorating human consciousness


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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom wrote:

I've just come here today after first
checking the news on Google. Just
waking up and again coming face to
face with the fact that we here in the
US have elected a mad man like Trump
to be president gives me a strong
feeling of dread. That plus the latest
reports of the terrorist bombings,
murders, nuclear weapon testing by N.
Korea, etc. This is our world, right?
It's not a world of peace and love and
understanding, eh? K said we can get
at the root of all this world wide
madness by understanding ourselves. So
that's likely why most of us are
here....to get to the root of it all.
Why must we live like this? Why can't
we live in peace...and put an end to
war, violence, poverty, exploitation,
needless environmental destruction,
pollution, incessant conflict and
misery.

I hear your cry, Tom. To see a man like Trump elected president of what is still the powerful nation on Earth seems ….. beyond belief. He is openly hypocritical. He boasts of his corruption. His only morality is greed. His irrationality seems to know no bounds. And one of the aids he has appointed recently said that the Earth was 5500 years old.

Not saying that previous presidents have been much to write home about, (and not saying other natons are radically different) but this one seems to indicate a paradigm shift. And yet he was voted into power by a majority of Americans. He must represent a considerable proportion of "American thinking". And it is he and his cronies who control this insane arsenal of nuclear weapons. His ego at the helm. I understand your dread, Tom.

I run out of adjectives to describe the state of the world. After 'insane', perhaps diabolical comes close. How have we arrived at the point in time? What has happened to human consciousness? I read the usual end-of-the-year summaries in the press, and there seems a general recognition that we are is CRISIS, and it can only get worse. Not that I need others to confirm this!

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #2
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
To see a man like Trump elected president of what is still the powerful nation on Earth seems ….. beyond belief.

I still feel like I must be having a bad dream. This can't be real! But anothet highly technologically advanced nation once supported a total madman as you know. Hitler came to power with the same strategy as Trump. Tell the people what they want to hear. "I will bring back jobs to the middle class and make Germany great again." Jobs/money and nationalism. And lie through your teeth the whole time about your opponents. Trump and crew would make Hitler and Joseph Goebels proud.

Clive Elwell wrote:
He must represent a considerable proportion of "American thinking".

Not necessarily. Most Americans don't think deeply at all. And Mrs. Clinton was a terrible candidate who was caught in multiple lies....and totally neglected to appeal to traditional middle class American values. Caring more about appealing to Transgender and Gay rights it seemed at times. But she was intelligent and relatively sane. Trump is neither. She should have lied more often about supporting the middle class and bringing back jobs like Trump did. Trump proved to be the bigger liar and propagandist, that's all. But anti-semitism was widespread, and in some areas the norm, in Hitler's day and for many centuries previous. Our human consciousness has not deteriorated, I don't think....same old consciousness we've always had, I'm afraid.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 03 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #3
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

How can self, selfcentred mind act, a stupid man will elect stupid leaders

This post was last updated by david sharma Tue, 03 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #4
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

The question is: is the religious mind, an individual mind or the collective mind? Or, is it something else? Sir, is your mind, the mind that you use, an individual mind - individual being unique? is your mind unique? Or is it merely the collective and the interaction of the collective modified in the present by various experiences and incidents and accidents? Is yours an individual mind? You may have a technical job, a mechanical functioning; is it an individual mind? Are you not of the collective? You are all Hindus, Christians, Catholics, Buddhists, Communists, Indians or Russians - you are the collective. To see that you are the collective and to see the fact of it and to free the mind from the collective - that can only be done through self-enquiry, through self-knowing. And the freeing of the mind from its conditioning through self-knowing brings about a new mind which is neither individual nor collective; that mind is something totally new
J.K., Talk 7, Rajghat, 14 January 1962

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #5
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti: Nobody can pull you out of your trap - no guru, no drug, no mantra, nobody, including myself - nobody, especially myself. All that you have to do is to be aware from the beginning to the end, not become inattentive in the middle of it. This new quality of awareness is attention, and in this attention there is no frontier made by the "me". This attention is the highest form of virtue, therefore it is love. It is supreme intelligence, and there cannot be attention if you are not sensitive to the structure and the nature of these man-made traps.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #6
Thumb_stringio David T United Kingdom 150 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

There is no reality in the media,the news is never the new,so remove ones self from its influence. As good a New Years resolution as any.
Perhaps instead of blaming others for the state of the world(what ever that means)one should actually look at ones self. Otherwise it is just more hot air adding to global warming. Is the dictatorship of my self any different than the dictatorship of a politician ?

I am a figment of my and your imagination

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #7
Thumb_ws_hp-wave_2560x1600 Mina Martini Finland 594 posts in this forum Offline

David T wrote:
There is no reality in the media,the news is never the new,so remove ones self from its influence. As good a New Years resolution as any.
Perhaps instead of blaming others for the state of the world(what ever that means)one should actually look at ones self. Otherwise it is just more hot air adding to global warming. Is the dictatorship of my self any different than the dictatorship of a politician ?

Mina: Yes, it seems that there is something lacking from truly seeing and living the immeasurable significance of the radical transformation of ourselves as the only real change in the world, but energy is leaking into still seeing the 'outer world' as separate. Intellectually we may acknowldge that 'we are the world', and consider our daily lives and relationships of importance as being part of the overall state of the world, but that is still rather bleak. I say bleak because I feel energy is still being wasted in the inner division that is then concerned about the world as if it was something else, or more, than what one is oneself.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Tue, 03 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #8
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
a stupid man will elect stupid leaders

Seems to me, David, that a non-stupid man will have nothing to do with leaders whatsoever. It cannot be intelligent to think others will solve the problems of the world, not matter what the calibre of that leader is. In fact it encourages people to be lazy, not to think for themselves. And as David T indicates, once one has given someone the position of leader, one can them blame him for failure to bring about 'improvement'.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Wed, 04 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

David T wrote:
There is no reality in the media,

Well, it is certainly hard, if not impossible in some cases, to discover what is true and what is not, Bu it is a reality, it is actual, that Trump was elected president. And the actions that he takes as president will be actualities, and will have their effect in terms of human suffering and chaos.

As good a New Years resolution as any.

Is there a “good resolution? Seems to me, given the nature of the human mind, “resolutions” mean nothing at all. The mind does what it does. It goes where it goes. Surely the idea of an entity who can make a resolution about the mind, act on that mind, who can control it, direct its course, is a fiction? As if it is outside of the mind. But any such entity is still a part of the mind which is trying to be resolved. All resolutions do is to further duality and increase conflict.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Whenever a comment, a reflection, is posted on the forum which is concerned with what is actually happening in the world – by the world I mean the world of actual events, the world as reported in the media, the world as technological developments, the world as wars fought, as terrorism, as environmental destruction, and so on - the same responses tend to appear. Responses as if it is somehow a mistake to observe these events, to be cognisant of what is happening in human affairs. This came up quite recently, but the discussion was not carried through, as I remember. I am not going to look back at what was said then, but let us follow it through now, if people are interested.

Just to start, Mina, you said:

”but energy is leaking into still
seeing the 'outer world' as separate".

Are you implying that being cognisant of the affairs of the world is to necessarily see the outer and the inner world as separate? I realise that to even put that question has to use words that imply separation, but let is take it from there.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #11
Thumb_ws_hp-wave_2560x1600 Mina Martini Finland 594 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Just to start, Mina, you said:

”but energy is leaking into still
seeing the 'outer world' as separate".

Clive:Are you implying that being cognisant of the affairs of the world is to necessarily see the outer and the inner world as separate? I realise that to even put that question has to use words that imply separation, but let is take it from there.

Mina:

No, I am not implying, that being cognisant of the affairs of the world (to know of anything) per see necessarily indicates that there is any division in us at all.

The possible leakage of energy is simply the psychological factor, if it is there, in me or you or anyone. If it is not, then the world of division is not. I say this because it is the psychological factor that has created or is creating the insanity of the world. If the world of division is not your reality, then the world of division does not exist for you.. ..which again does not mean that you shut your eyes from anything or feel separation from anything that happens, as the mind/division might easily interpret words like this. It means that you are seeing (not as an image of a seer) beyond the mind-created world.

With regards to the 'world situation' (which is the same as state of the human mind in division), the psychological could appear for example in any form of negativity, hopelessness, despair, fear, predictions about the future, anticipations of this or that disaster etc, even the descritpions, labellings, the world as diabolical, insane etc, can in fact be creating it and giving it life instead of letting it end in oneself.

(the world of thought is the world of definitions/labels)

Sorry, it is not easy to convey in words what is felt..understand your frustration with my replies...

Love

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Wed, 04 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #12
Thumb_ws_hp-wave_2560x1600 Mina Martini Finland 594 posts in this forum Offline

Realised, (had forgotten the content) that my post with the title "You are not facing the world if you are OF the world' is the best reply I can give to your questions to me of this thread. Do not know if that means anything to you...

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #13
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
With regards to the 'world situation' (which is the same as state of the human mind in division), the psychological could appear for example in any form of negativity, hopelessness, despair, fear, predictions about the future, anticipations of this or that disaster etc, even the descritpions, labellings, the world as diabolical, insane etc, can in fact be creating it and giving it life instead of letting it end in oneself.
(the world of thought is the world of definitions/labels)

yes...and when said 'labels' are applied 'psychologically' this is division in action... and conflict is inevitable. I was aware of this in the recent presidential election when such name calling and insults were hurled back and forth. I realized that the words of those on the liberal left were just as divisive as those on the conservative right. A close friend of mine is very politically active in the form of writing and blogging. I found it a little disturbing to read his verbal insults and assaults on the other party. How the hell can we heal our divisions if we're perpetuating them with insults? Oh, I do it too sometimes, calling our president elect insane. His divisiveness is so extreme that it does appear to be a form of insanity...using the word 'insanity' objectively. Not that most of us are a whole lot better.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 04 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
. Our human consciousness has not deteriorated, I don't think....same old consciousness we've always had, I'm afraid.

I am suspecting that there is an on-going deterioration - while not denying the essentials of the self have always been there. I cannot 'prove' this, and I'm not sure how to inquire if it is so.

Obviously the consequences of our crazy actions, our unintelligence, have intensified enormously. Since the development of the nuclear bomb, the capacity to utterly destroy most life on Earth has been there. But this can be put down to the development of technology.

How about the enormously high levels of depression, suicide and general unhappiness? Is this not a new development? What about the use of drugs? What about escapism generally? What about not knowing one's neighbours, and all the social isolation?

I might add what about our indifference to the problems we are creating? As in letting the physical infrastruture, absolutely essential to our physical survival, deteriorate? This is happening especially in the US, I believe.

As I said, I cannot prove it, but there seems an enormous amount of evidence to think man's mind is deteriorating.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #15
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Obviously the consequences of our crazy actions, our unintelligence, have intensified enormously. Since the development of the nuclear bomb, the capacity to utterly destroy most life on Earth has been there. But this can be put down to the development of technology.

How about the enormously high levels of depression, suicide and general unhappiness? Is this not a new development? What about the use of drugs? What about escapism generally? What about not knowing one's neighbours, and all the social isolation?

What about slavery in ancient times, Clive.....war of course and women living in virtual slavery to their husbands...crucifixions, etc.? Man hasn't deteriorated psychologically, I don't think, but our greatly evolved technology has created new problems and stresses on the psyche that didn't exist previously. But the psyche itself is the same as it's always been since before Cain and Able as far as I can see.

Clive: How about the enormously high levels of depression, suicide and general unhappiness? Is this not a new development?

Tom: Yes, probably due to our technologically advanced societies. Primative man wasn't a slave to the assembly line or to the sewing machine sweat shop. His life and his needs were much simpler, I think, though the potential for violence and exploitation was obviously present. Read about feudalism in Medieval Europe some time....or life in the Dark Ages... if you haven't already.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 05 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #16
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom, I certainly am not arguing that aggressiveness, violence, indifference to one's fellow man, exploitation, greed, selfishness have not always been factors in human affairs, human relationship. Barbarous and cruelty have always existed, since mankind began his laborious, miserable journey. I do not think there ever was a utopian society.

But just because these things have always existed, does not prove that the human mind is not caught in a deteriorating process, does it? Did we always “foul our nest” as we are doing now? Did we always show such indifference to the future?

An interesting fact, human intelligence, as measured by certain standardised tests, IS actually decreasing

https://www.amren.com/news/2014/08/iq-scores-are-decreasing-and-some-experts-argue-its-because-humans-have-reached-their-intellectual-peak/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329831-300-it-would-be-stupid-to-ignore-a-drop-in-human-intellect/

Of course different explanations for this can be argued, and are.

But Tom, don't you have a feel for this, if you ever switch on the television, for example? If you watch the so called “news”? Don't you feel, looking back, how much “dumbing down” there has been?

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Sat, 07 Jan 2017 #17
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Don't you feel, looking back, how much “dumbing down” there has been?

Sure. It's done to appeal to the lowest common denominator....for ratings. They feel that an intelligent in depth analysis of the news will not attract enough viewers. I honestly don't think the human mind has deteriorated. But the great advances in technology have created new ways for us to exploit one another and to create a demand for constant entertainment....like junk food for the mind. Primative man had much more space and peace and quiet in his daily life. Now we fill every available moment with noise...tv, internet, cell phones, video games, sports, music, etc. It may seem it's making us dumber, and in a sense it probably is. But the brain itself has not changed. It's just over fed with junk! I refuse to even watch TV. So much of it is pure rubbish. If I want the news I can read it online. If I want entertainment I can get better quality entertainment from a good book than from most any idiotic TV program.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 07 Jan 2017.

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Sat, 07 Jan 2017 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But just because these things have always existed, does not prove that the human mind is not caught in a deteriorating process, does it?

Just wanted to add that the 'human mind' is MY mind. As K. said, 'a change in 'me' will effect the whole....the world'. The human mind can be changed only if I change. So I address the world problem in understanding myself and the 'human mind' in me. It’s right there in 'me' now.....not somewhere 'out there'.

Let it Be

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Sat, 07 Jan 2017 #19
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Sure. It's done to appeal to the lowest common denominator....for ratings. They feel that an intelligent in depth analysis of the news will not attract enough viewers.

But is this not part of the deterioration that I talk of? A complete abdecation of the responsibility that should come with one's work?

I don't know about the US, but as a child in the UK I remember the BBC news. Presented by a single news broadcaster, read out in a serious manner. Followed by serious analysis of issues, by people who knew what they were talking about. In depth invetigative jounalism. Last time I looked at the BBC news, it seemed to consist of a man and a woman having a happy chat at a coffee table.

Maybe you don't want to take this any further, Tom, and that's all right. But this question came: years ago (not saying how many) could a man like Trump ever have got elected as president?

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Mon, 09 Jan 2017 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
or ratings. They feel that an intelligent in depth analysis of the news will not attract enough viewers.
But is this not part of the deterioration that I talk of? A complete abdecation of the responsibility that should come with one's work?

You're not saying the brain has deteriorated physiologically...in some physical sense...are you? The deterioration is psychological? Not sure that that's possible. I think the 'me' is as confused and self centered as it always was. It's just that in some instances this inner conflict leads to crime and exploitation...outward violence. But the inward violence of the church has been with us for many centuries, right? There have always been extreme instances of conflict in individuals, creating criminal behavior and extreme exploitation of others. Look at Henry VIII. The difference is that now the criminals control even the news media! It seems almost to be the case here in the U.S. with the commercial news networks. It's criminal in the sense of being totally centered around profit and gain. Total abdication of their responsibility as news reporters. But this kind of self centeredness has existed forever. Only recently has it invaded the BBC, perhaps, but in past centuries they had such corruption, I'm certain. Snake oil salesmen and the like. Pirates and other criminals who lived by exploiting others....the slave trade, etc. Insane emperors in ancient Rome. The gladiators battling to death in the coliseum also in Rome. And the Nazis of course controlled all news media with their propaganda and lies. At least now we don't treat public executions as entertainment as they did in England a couple of centuries back.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 09 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 10 Jan 2017 #21
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 521 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
At least now we don't treat public executions as entertainment as they did in England a couple of centuries back.

Tom,

Physically you mean, but psychological the execution is now called entertainment
or being straight with coarse talc or politics.
Look at the reaction of Trump on Meryl Streep or Putin with his playing of not knowing.

The old adage: divide and conquer is not only there but also within us
as we are unaware of the division of the whole !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 10 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 10 Jan 2017 #22
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Physically you mean, but psychological the execution is now called entertainment
or being straight with coarse talc or politics.

Good point, Wim. "Psychological execution" as entertainment is alive and well. So do you feel Clive has a point about the deterioration of man's consciousness?

Let it Be

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #23
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom, we were discussing – perhaps arguing, but in the nicest sort of way :-) - whether the human mind is deteriorating. You were saying that the mind has not changed fundamentally, but given our technical development, we have the opportunity to do a lot more harm, no? This is certainly true, but I still feel a deteriorating factor is at work. I guess it is up to me to explain just how this happens.

But I want to ask you this question: Do you feel that in a normal person's life, from birth to death, the mind undergoes deterioration? I mean the mind as manifested in a particular brain.

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #24
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 521 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Do you feel that in a normal person's life, from birth to death,
the mind undergoes deterioration?
I mean the mind as manifested in a particular brain.

Clive,

Isn't the brain as physical object undergoes deterioration during a lifetime?

Just by the answering saw a flash coming by:
We don't use our brain efficiently by letting great parts out of use.
So it's is like unused tools they become rusty, while with K. and other human beings like musicians of a high order they using far much of there brain cells
and perform on stage - till death so to say - without deterioration.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #25
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
You were saying that the mind has not changed fundamentally, but given our technical development, we have the opportunity to do a lot more harm, no? This is certainly true, but I still feel a deteriorating factor is at work. I guess it is up to me to explain just how this happens.

Yes, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Do you feel that in a normal person's life, from birth to death, the mind undergoes deterioration? I mean the mind as manifested in a particular brain.

Psychologically, I imagine we become more fixed in our ways...our behavior patterns and thinking...more rigid and often more depressed...hopeless. Is this what you're saying? The child's brain obviously is not nearly so 'fixed' in set patterns of thinking. The child is more 'open minded'....will listen without jumping to conclusions or judgments. So as we age, the 'me' gets more and more solidified? I think we can see this happening if we're fortunate to be a parent or grandparent. We can watch the child develop from infancy when there is little or no 'me'/self, and gradually the mind becomes more fixed in patterns of thought and behavior. But once we've become an adult...are you saying that the mind continues to deteriorate until the day we die? I honestly don't know. Perhaps you'll say more about this.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 18 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #26
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But once we've become an adult...are you saying that the mind continues to deteriorate until the day we die? I honestly don't know. Perhaps you'll say more about this.

Yes Tom, what you describe is certainly part of what I was getting at. We become more rigid as we get older (and probably the rigidity of the mind is reflected by the rigidity of the body). We become more and more concerned with 'security' – manifesting in many ways, not the least in the pursuit of material things. We become more and more mechanical in our actions. We tend to settle in comfortable beliefs and conclusions. Quite simply, we become fixed, and we do not like to be challenged or disturbed.

Remembering now that this was discussed somewhere in “The Ending of Time”. They had been reading some scientific paper, which described how measurements of the brain revelaed actual, physical, shrinking with age.

Would you agree that all these manifestations represent deterioration of the brain? They represent more and more emphasis being placed on the self, which I am sure you would agree is destructive?

I don't know if this is a smooth process until the day we die, and there are surely some exceptions. But I visit in a village for the elderly once a week, and as far as I can see, the residents are not exactly lively, including in the mind. They live more and more on memories, ancient memories.

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #27
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

When starting this thread, I did not give much thought to the title I used : “Trump and other manifestations of our deteriorating human consciousness”. But it came to me after reading of Trump's inauguration speech, and all his talk and action, that this is a perfectly true phrase. Or one could say Trump is a manifestation of human insanity. A manifestation of the insanity of the collective human consciousness. Just as Hitler was, and any number of characters in our strange, twisted human history.

And Beethoven and others like him were also manifestation of some force in human consciousness. I seem to remember K saying Beethoven appeared, manifested, because there was a need for him – if anyone can supply the exact quotation I would be grateful.

This is a concept very different from the generally accepted notion of what we are, the idea we are separate human beings, in charge our thoughts, and perhaps our destiny. I do not claim to fully understand, but the implications are obviously profound.

And one asks, if Trump manifests the insanity of the human race, is it possible that in our lives we manifest sanity?

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 #28
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Sorry Wim, I only just noticed your post, and it is a response to me.

Wim Opdam wrote:
Isn't the brain as physical object undergoes deterioration during a lifetime?

I think there is no question of it, it does. Especially in this day and age, when just about everything we come into contact with is poisonous, physically or psychologically.

Wim Opdam wrote:
, while with K. and other human beings like musicians of a high order they using far much of there brain cells
and perform on stage - till death so to say - without deterioration.

I would not equate K and musicians in this respect - are not musicians still specialists, and so still developing, using, only one part of the brain? While the rest is neglected. I won't attempt to comment on K's use of the brain, but he never appeared to be a specialist.

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Tue, 24 Jan 2017 #29
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3567 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Would you agree that all these manifestations represent deterioration of the brain? They represent more and more emphasis being placed on the self, which I am sure you would agree is destructive?

Tom, this is a question that I put you in #26.Have you anything to say? We went a little bit into what might be meant by the deterioration of the individual brain, in the course of a life time, although one could inquire more deeply. But fundamentally, would you agree that this goes on?

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Wed, 25 Jan 2017 #30
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 1833 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
We become more rigid as we get older (and probably the rigidity of the mind is reflected by the rigidity of the body). We become more and more concerned with 'security' – manifesting in many ways, not the least in the pursuit of material things. We become more and more mechanical in our actions. We tend to settle in comfortable beliefs and conclusions. Quite simply, we become fixed, and we do not like to be challenged or disturbed.

Sorry I didn't get around to replying, Clive, but I'm not at all sure about this point. In my own case it might in fact be the reverse, as reading K, may have had the effect of making me much less rigid than most of my contemporaries. But from viewing (from the outside) friends and family as they age, it seems that most are already very fixed in their ways by the time they reach their late 20's or perhaps their early thirties. If we've settled into a career and a family life, having children, then our routines already become very fixed. I certainly observed this in my own parents. Weekdays when my father had to go to work, and the kids to school, the daily routine was extremely fixed. Even the evening entertainment...what TV shows we watched on what day of the week was fixed. When my relatives visited on the weekends...usually Sunday....the men eventually found their way to the football or basketball game on the tv....perhaps after grilling some steaks and chicken on the barbecue in the warmer months. At least in my own family, the adults we're already fixed in a rigid routine and world view by the time they were in their 30's. From what I could tell, my parents friends and my aunts and uncles were the same. I can't say that the older relatives....grandparents ....were somehow more fixed in their ways.

Let it Be

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