Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

the main thread is suffering...


Displaying posts 31 - 37 of 37 in total
Sun, 09 Oct 2016 #31
Thumb_stringio Juan E. Spain 391 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

richard viillar wrote:
so if there is no will, is it an inquiry..?

Why not? ... According to Merriam-Webster dictionary 'inquiry' means "examination into facts or principles" and is not seeing examining into facts and principles, from one to another, in an unobstructed endless chain, in a natural flow without any intervention of the will?

richard viillar wrote:
Dan seems to be fine on the last news i had from him... :-)

Je ne sais pas s'il suit le forum, en tout cas, lui donnes salutations en mon nom la prochaine fois que vous parlez avec lui :-)

Let's see ...

This post was last updated by Juan E. (account deleted) Sun, 09 Oct 2016.

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Mon, 10 Oct 2016 #32
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E. wrote:
salutations en mon nom la prochaine fois que vous parlez avec lui :-)

OK Juan avec plaisir...

Juan E. wrote:
Why not? ... According to Merriam-Webster dictionary

Yes yes i know, but... i have the féeling as i see it, that the inquiry is more an approach/ initiative and the seeing is a conséquence... you see what i mean Juan?

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Mon, 10 Oct 2016 #33
Thumb_stringio Juan E. Spain 391 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

richard viillar wrote:
Yes yes i know, but... i have the féeling as i see it, that the inquiry is more an approach/ initiative and the seeing is a conséquence... you see what i mean Juan?

Yes, i see what you mean ... You're saying that apparently there's no seeing without an initiative of the will to look at something, like a match that lights a fuse that makes "exploding" something ... But then, is insight, seeing? ... And if it is so, what was the match that lit the fuse if it acts on its own accord not depending on the will? ... And is there not a natural inquiry in an insight? ... Or seeing is something static that stops once we have seen?

Let's see ...

This post was last updated by Juan E. (account deleted) Mon, 10 Oct 2016.

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Tue, 11 Oct 2016 #34
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

What i try to say here is that the two (seeing and initiative) are not incompatible.

When i decide to sit to observe the movement of thought, it is an initiative but i know that, in méditation, there is à state which there is no will. Then i can do that even if there is a method in the sitting, the immobilty of body, the préservation of the movement of eyes and so on.

A lot of People doesn't do that because they think or believe that initiative is an obstacle in méditation....

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Thu, 13 Oct 2016 #35
Thumb_stringio Juan E. Spain 391 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Apologies for the delay, Richard ...

richard viillar wrote:
When i decide to sit to observe the movement of thought, it is an initiative but i know that, in méditation, there is à state which there is no will. Then i can do that even if there is a method in the sitting, the immobilty of body, the préservation of the movement of eyes and so on.

Yes, one can take the initiative to observe the movement of thought using any method as a tool, or let this observation arise on its own accord without any need for a method but just paying full attention, this doesn't make any difference to me ... provided the method does not become a crutch on which i depend upon.

Personally i have never been able to follow any of the so-called "meditation methods", and not because i think they can be an obstacle to meditation but simply because my mind and heart, since early age, seem to follow their own "meditation method", feeling discomfort if they are "forced" to adjust themselves to any established way of meditation ...

Anyway, K said that a method dulls the mind ... the understanding of it going far beyond than the mere discarding of any of the so-called methods (as many K "followers" seem to do just because "the authority" said so) ...

And Buddhist use to say that sitting meditation is not the more important, but what is really important is to unite sitting meditation with non-sitting meditation, or putting it simple: to unite meditation with post-meditation ... which simply means that at certain point mind and heart naturally abandon the method.

Now, K asked from us to do that in the "now", while others seem to say "you'll do it in the 'later' after following certain instructions" ... So, it seems a matter of time versus not-time, but can someone prove that anyone doing sitting meditation in the presence of K -- and therefore following a method -- cannot reach the same deep understanding than anyone doing nothing but simply paying full attention, while listening both to K's words? ... Why K "followers" then, discard any method while at the same time they follow K's method?

So, to me the method is not the problem, but the way in which we approach to it can be ... If it makes us to depend on it ... Which means that we are not using the method by what it is, a mere tool, but as a crutch ... And if i made a crutch of it, then all sort of problems may arise in me as well as in my relationship with others ... You already know the word "Proselytism"! (which is not only used by some followers of major religions, but also by some K followers -- even if they possibly will never acknowledge that)

richard viillar wrote:
A lot of People doesn't do that because they think or believe that initiative is an obstacle in méditation....

Yes, this seem true for many K "followers", always ready to discard anything smelling to "method" ... But perhaps these words from David Bohm in dialogue with K, may help them to understand that an initiative does not always mean an obstacle to meditation, on the contrary!:

David Bohm: Insight arises when one questions the whole thing very deeply...
Krishnamurti: ...very deeply, yes.

Let's see ...

This post was last updated by Juan E. (account deleted) Thu, 13 Oct 2016.

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Fri, 30 Dec 2016 #36
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

QOTD:

The problem itself contains the answer; the answer is not away from the problem. Our whole question, then, is how to read the problem very clearly and swiftly, because the problem is never the same.

i would say that the problem is the answer... and in a certain view, the problem is always the same...

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Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #37
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3743 posts in this forum Offline

The quote of the day says:

The very desire to be free creates its own limitation.

It came in the night that the very desire to be free of suffering creates suffering.

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