Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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the main thread is suffering...


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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #1
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

How can it be that suffering is the main thread to freedom..?

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3040 posts in this forum Offline

Why do you say that it is so, Richard? After all, there is tremendous suffering in the world, there always has been, but it has not generally lead to freedom.

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #3
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 531 posts in this forum Offline

People here use the word "suffering" often...what does psychological suffering mean? For some it's intense, for others nonexistent. The word "discontent" has been used here, is that a better description for most of us i.e. we want 'something' that we don't think we have?

This from today's quote, is this the 'suffering' being talked about?:

K.... And since this choice, this advancement which we call action, is but a ceaseless struggle, a continual effort, our lives are also a ceaseless effort and not a free, spontaneous flow of action."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 12 Aug 2016.

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #4
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Clive, Dan, all

Well... yes, What is there under cover of suffering...

All that a human being (under the influence of what is named self), can live, that is, all y the time. .. daily life. Either physical, either psychological (discontent etc...), either intense or non felt. Because a life under influence of What Is Named Self (W.I.N.S ;-) ), is a life of suffering.

Now, how can the suffering be the main thread to freedom? Naturaly, it is dificult to explain the following to a person Who suffer intensely physically and Who is not aware of that, nevertheless, some can see and do it...

Clive Elwell wrote:
there is tremendous suffering in the world, there always has been, but it has not generally lead to freedom.

Yes and if suffering was the cause of freedom, all the human being would be in peace, in freedom.
But suffering is the main thread, why? Because it is the manifestation of the cause of suffering, all the time. Here and now, in daily life. But people don't see that, on the contrary!, people doesn't want to see the manifestation, people make all the possible to don't see that, to don't feel that, with all its energy, and it's even became the meaning of life...

People don't see the oportunity, people don't see that what is manifested, is directly linked to the root of the cause. People don't see the highway that is.

Daily life is the Best support to enlightment, every thought, speech, movement... the "freedom" is very close...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

This post was last updated by richard villlar (account deleted) Sat, 13 Aug 2016.

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #5
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

richard villlar wrote:
Daily life is the Best support to enlightment, every thought, speech, movement... the "freedom" is very close...

Everything that appear is support to "wake up", sensation/perception, thought, émotion... all that is THE laboratory of observation...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #6
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3040 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
K.... And since this choice, this advancement which we call action, is but a ceaseless struggle, a continual effort, our lives are also a ceaseless effort and not a free, spontaneous flow of action."

By 'suffering' I would include the feeling that we have to make an effort to get somewhere, to achieve something. I would include strife, the perception of endless problems that have to be overcome. It is also the feeling of isolation, being cut off from everyone and everything.

It is the feeling that life has no meaning - or if it has, one has not discovered it yet. Or other people have a sense of meaning, other people are fulfilled, and oneself is not. Yes, comparison is a big part of suffering,

In modern parlance suffering is stress in one's life, too much to deal with with, so much that is unfinished, that is awaiting attention. Never a sense of deep relaxation and well-being.

It is the sense of non-achievement, of having failed.

It is conflict. All this and more - and yet I would not include the term discontent. I think that has a different quality. K has talked of "the flame of discontent" - a flame that needs to be nourished.

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #7
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3040 posts in this forum Offline

richard villlar wrote:
. the "freedom" is very close...

Freedom is very close because death - psychological ending/dying - is very close. As close as the ending of a thought.

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #8
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

richard villlar wrote:
the "freedom" is very close...

Clive Elwell wrote:
because death - psychological ending/dying - is very close.

Yes, i wrote that to underline the closeness of the support of seeing, and so, of freedom...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #9
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 531 posts in this forum Offline

The 'freedom' IS the seeing of the total scene (manifestation) at any moment. Thought must be included in the seeing...(otherwise it stays 'in charge'.) "Laboratory of observation" is a good phrase.

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #10
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Elwell wrote:
the feeling that we have to make an effort to get somewhere, to achieve something. I would include strife, the perception of endless problems that have to be overcome. It is also the feeling of isolation, being cut off from everyone and everything.

It is the feeling that life has no meaning - or if it has, one has not discovered it yet. Or other people have a sense of meaning, other people are fulfilled, and oneself is not. Yes, comparison is a big part of suffering,

In modern parlance suffering is stress in one's life, too much to deal with with, so much that is unfinished, that is awaiting attention. Never a sense of deep relaxation and well-being.

It is the sense of non-achievement, of having failed.

It is conflict. All this and more - and yet

All that is support to enlightment, all what we reject, is the compost where can emerges a wonderful flower...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #11
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dan McDermott wrote:
Thought must be included in the seeing...

Yes indeed Dan.

richard villlar wrote:
Everything that appear is support to "wake up", sensation/perception, thought, émotion... all that is THE laboratory of observation...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 12 Aug 2016 #12
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dan McDermott wrote:
The 'freedom' IS the seeing of the total scene (manifestation) at any moment.

Yes it is

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Sat, 13 Aug 2016 #13
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

QOTD:"You admit that the thinker and the thought are one and yet there is no change in your way of living. Why?"

There is Just a superficial understanding.... that is not a négation process. The negation process takes place in what is manifested in daily life... this fact that we run away (the suffering) is the direct link to negate and see that the thinker is the thought, the direct link to see, observe that all is perception... but this fact is avoided, rejected, this fact which life manifests to "show" that there is illusion, maybe that is also Why, there is no change in our way of living... there is a wonderful laboratoty of observation but we run away from it...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Sun, 14 Aug 2016 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3040 posts in this forum Offline

This is a very interesting perspective on suffering. Tomorrow I will complete some of the links that were given in the original:

“Nature, the soul, love … one recognizes through the heart, and not through the reason,” 16-year-old Dostoyevsky wrote in a beautiful letter to his brother. On some elemental level, we intuit this to be true, and yet we somehow let ourselves forget it as we grow older and more reliant on the intellect as our supreme mode of knowing. We seem to remember it only in moments of suffering — of emotional intensity so acute and uncontrollable that it strips down our rationalizations and deposits us, naked and unguarded, into the cradle of our own being. The wisdom of the heart that we reap in that vulnerable state is of a wholly different order than the intellectual insight we synthesize through deliberate rational thought.

This, perhaps, is what Rilke meant when he extolled sorrow as a supreme tool of self-knowledge and what Simone Weil, ever the underappreciated genius, was touching on in contemplating how to make use of our suffering. Yet what makes emotional suffering most anguishing is precisely that we so stubbornly resist it for, on some level, we judge it as anti-intellectual.

In The Captive & The Fugitive (public library), the fifth volume of his masterwork In Search of Lost Time, Marcel Proust (July 10, 1871–November 18, 1922) shines a penetrating sidewise gleam on this paradox of how the intellect, in its coolly rational search for facts, blinds us to the larger truths of our emotional reality.

Shortly after the protagonist has completed a rigorous intellectual analysis of his feelings for his romantic partner, Albertine, and concluded that he no longer loves her, he receives news of her death. He is suddenly overcome by such uncontainable and uncontrollable sorrow that the truth — a truth his intellect had rejected but his heart encoded far more deeply — was revealed to him: He does, after all, love Albertine tremendously.

In one particularly insightful passage, Proust channels through his protagonist, named after himself, universal insight into how our intellect blinds us to the wisdom of the heart and how pain, above all, strips down our intellectual defenses and puts us in raw, direct contact with the emotional truth of our being:

"I had believed that I was leaving nothing out of account, like a rigorous analyst; I had believed that I knew the state of my own heart. But our intelligence, however lucid, cannot perceive the elements that compose it and remain unsuspected so long as, from the volatile state in which they generally exist, a phenomenon capable of isolating them has not subjected them to the first stages of solidification. I had been mistaken in thinking that I could see clearly into my own heart. But this knowledge, which the shrewdest perceptions of the mind would not have given me, had now been brought to me, hard, glittering, strange, like a crystallised salt, by the abrupt reaction of pain."

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Mon, 15 Aug 2016 #15
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3040 posts in this forum Offline

If anyone is interested in the article I posted above, here is the original:
https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/08/12/proust-love-intellect/

The article contains several links that amplify its contents, which I did not include in the previous post.

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Mon, 15 Aug 2016 #16
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3040 posts in this forum Offline

If anyone is interested in the article I posted above, here is the original:
https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/08/12/proust-love-intellect/

The article contains several links that amplify its contents, which I did not include in the previous post.

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Mon, 15 Aug 2016 #17
Thumb_stringio Hari Govind India 42 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Clive, Richard, everyone..

I feel that as long as suffering is 'personalized 'it is a very big detriment to inquiry, and quite possibly the primary cause of division between men, leading to deep scars in the psyche and all kinds of neurotic behavior.

The deep sorrow one experiences on seeing such division might be what you are pointing towards, perhaps?
Marcel Proust's sorrow, is that sorrow at all? I wonder.

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Mon, 15 Aug 2016 #18
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Thank you Clive i will read that...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #19
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hello Hari,

It is an important point here... because as i see it, it is the daily life...

What is named suffering, in fact, is sensations and thoughts.

In the physical case, those sames sensations and thoughts become suffering when there is grasping and so "selfyization" of those sensations and thoughts.

The psychological case is obviouslly already SUFFERING.

The inquiry i mean is the selfying of informations (suffering) which appear in all daily life.

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

This post was last updated by richard villlar (account deleted) Fri, 19 Aug 2016.

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #20
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 531 posts in this forum Offline

richard villlar wrote:
selfying

Hi Richard

I have a suggestion for a different spelling of this word: self-ing. (or selfifying?)

Which would mean taking on or being given attributes of a 'self'

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 19 Aug 2016.

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #21
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3040 posts in this forum Offline

richard villlar wrote:
What is named suffering, in fact, is sensations and thoughts.

In the physical case, those sames sensations and thoughts become suffering when there is grasping and so "selfyization" of those sensations and thoughts.

The psychological case is obviouslly already SUFFERING.

Is this another way of saying identifying with the thoughts and sensations?

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #22
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dan McDermott wrote:
suggestion for a different spelling of this word: self-ing

Why not! i called by phone Daniel to ask him how could i turn the word self to mean

Dan McDermott wrote:
taking on or being given attributes of a 'self'

He said that "selfying" seems to be correct ("understandable") but why not "self-ing"... as you see that is right.

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #23
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 531 posts in this forum Offline

richard villlar wrote:
He said that "selfying" seems to be correct ("understandable") but why not "self-ing"... as you see that is right.

Yes it's understandable but the 'y' isn't necessary, self-ing or self-ization, I think is good.

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #24
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is this another way of saying identifying with the thoughts and sensations?

Not exactly... identification is "i am that", it is after the grasping which selfying/self-ing...

To the emergence of "i am that", before, there is a grasping "i am"...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #25
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yes it's understandable but the 'y' isn't necessary, self-ing or self-ization, I think is good.

Ok self-ing

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #26
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 624 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

richard villlar wrote:
The inquiry i mean is the selfying of informations (suffering) which appear in all daily life.

In other term, the daily life is the best support to inquiry because all what appear is "selfied"... all, then all is support to inquiry...

it not necessary to go/be in a spécial place...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Sat, 08 Oct 2016 #27
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 157 posts in this forum Offline

hi all!! just back a litle...

the main thread is suffering...

richard villlar wrote:
the daily life is the best support to inquiry

Tom paine in another thread wrote:
the unconscious is directing the inquiry

here is an important point i think... maybe that, to inquire, is not a real inquiry, in the sense that, if it is the unconcious (the suffering) which generate the inquiry, the inquiry seems to be "selfied"... but when, in meditation for exemple, after "receiving impultion" of suffering (ME conscious or unconscous) there is seeing...

is the seeing an inquiry?

This post was last updated by richard viillar Sat, 08 Oct 2016.

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Sat, 08 Oct 2016 #28
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1496 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
Tom paine in another thread wrote:

the unconscious is directing the inquiry

Richard: here is an important point i think... maybe to inquire, is not a real inquiry, in the sense that, if it is the unconcious (the suffering) which generate the inquiry, the inquiry seems to be "selfied"...

Hi richard, the unconscious also has its own conclusions and beliefs about the conflict one is inquiring into...that it is wrong, that 'I' or 'you' are wrong....that I should be free of conflict...fear, etc. I think that's what I was getting at in my statement that you quoted above. I agree that the inquiry is 'selfied' because, though I say I want to inquire, at heart, I really want to get rid of the conflict....or I'm condemning it as wrong. No real inquiry is taking place in that case.

Let it Be

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Sat, 08 Oct 2016 #29
Thumb_stringio Juan E. Spain 391 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Richard, nice to listen to you again! :-) ... How is Paul D.?

richard viillar wrote:
is the seeing an inquiry?

Seeing is an inquiry without no end which not depends on the will.
Voir est une enquête sans aucune fin qui ne dépend pas de la volonté.

Let's see ...

This post was last updated by Juan E. (account deleted) Sat, 08 Oct 2016.

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Sun, 09 Oct 2016 #30
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 157 posts in this forum Offline

hola Juan gracias... !

Juan E. wrote:
which not depends on the will.

so if there is no will, is it an inquiry..?

Juan E. wrote:
How is Paul D.?

Dan seems to be fine on the last news i had from him... :-)

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