Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

what am I really 2


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Thu, 12 May 2016 #91
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 591 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Sudhir Sharma wrote:

When one blames something for one's miseries and woes, then it is natural for that person to demand and to take action to end or eliminate that something from his life, right?

Tom : But he is it!

Let us be careful here...Isn't it me who is making this assertion about itself?

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Thu, 12 May 2016 #92
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Tom : But he is it!

Let us be careful here...Isn't it me who is making this assertion about itself?

But isn't that which you are trying to eliminate part of you? I'm full of fear....it's part of me....and I want to eliminate it. But the original post we were both commenting on mentioned the self wanting to end itself(I think it was Clive who mentioned the desire for the self to end seeing that it was the cause of so much misery).. Of course he/I/you is the self which he/I/you wants to eliminate. What else? How can I be separate from what I am....which I think I should get rid of, strangely enough....one part/fragment of me trying to get rid of another part.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 12 May 2016.

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Fri, 13 May 2016 #93
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4192 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How can I be separate from what I am....which I think I should get rid of, strangely enough....one part/fragment of me trying to get rid of another part.

Interesting and basic questions, Tom. Seems to me this separation between self and not self is the very essence, and perhaps the beginning, of all the confusion that the world of the psyche is.

"Just how may selves are there?" This apparently was the question asked by Erkhart Tolle, just before there was a transformation in his mind.

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Fri, 13 May 2016 #94
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4192 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
but whatever he finds in the end will be his belief/opinion/illusion and not a fact...

Are you saying, Sudhir, that there is no such thing as a fact?

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Fri, 13 May 2016 #95
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Seems to me this separation between self and not self is the very essence, and perhaps the beginning, of all the confusion that the world of the psyche is.

Yes! K often called this apparent separation me vs, not me. I/me looks at fear as if it's NOT me -> division and conflict.

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Fri, 13 May 2016 #96
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 650 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
"Just how may selves are there?" This apparently was the question asked by Erkhart Tolle, just before there was a transformation in his mind.

Woah! While I admit I have not heard or read the man himself, Paul D, Jack, had nothing positive whatsoever to say about him.

Sometimes those nearest the truth can be nearest to deception.

mike

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Fri, 13 May 2016 #97
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4192 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Woah! While I admit I have not heard or read the man himself, Paul D, Jack, had nothing positive whatsoever to say about him.

I am not advocating reading Tolle, or recommending him in any way. I am simply reporting the fact that the realisation of the falseness of this duality the mind lives in can be transformative. I have come across this in connection with others.

And I myself, looking inwards, can see the importance of this, repeatedly. This duality is false. To see the falseness in the working of the mind is ...... I don't want to keep using the word 'transformative' ..... is of great significance

In fact Tolle does describe the workings of the ego with great accuracy in his initial books. But I now read that he is now piling up the money, having accepted the role of 'Spiritual Teacher'. One is reminded of something K said:

"Deterioration is always just one step behind - including for me"

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Fri, 13 May 2016 #98
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But I now read that he is now piling up the money, having accepted the role of 'Spiritual Teacher'. One is reminded of something K said:

"Deterioration is always just one step behind - including for me"

Tolle is apparently playing the guru game to the hilt. Check out his videos on YouTube if you're interested.....there's a LOT. Not that there is nothing of value in his books. I remember liking the first one a whole lot when it came out. That was quite a while back before he went on to fortune and fame, thanks to followers like Oprah.

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Sun, 15 May 2016 #99
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 591 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Sudhir Sharma wrote:

but whatever he finds in the end will be his belief/opinion/illusion and not a fact...

C E : Are you saying, Sudhir, that there is no such thing as a fact?

Clive, the term "fact" has value only for the human mind. In actuality the "event/action/happening" is existing (and dying) in the now moment...never ever to be repeated.

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Sun, 15 May 2016 #100
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Clive, the term "fact" has value only for the human mind. In actuality the "event/action/happening" is existing (and dying) in the now moment...never ever to be repeated.

But the fact of violence is being repeated endlessly! Seeking pleasure and fulfillment too.

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Sun, 15 May 2016 #101
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 591 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But the fact of violence is being repeated endlessly! Seeking pleasure and fulfillment too.

The act and the label...which is a fact?

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Sun, 15 May 2016 #102
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 650 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
the term "fact" has value only for the human mind. In actuality the "event/action/happening" is existing (and dying) in the now moment...never ever to be repeated.

Fact has reality in the human mind, but also in the world of action. If I get drunk at a cocktail party, tell my boss to go to hell and kiss his wife, tomorrow may bring a fact or two from yesterday. In fact maybe quite a few.

mike

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Sun, 15 May 2016 #103
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
The act and the label...which is a fact?

The label points to the fact that I'm violent or afraid...but it also carries a whole world of conditioning that prevents seeing the fact itself....like the label 'rose' points to the flower.....but the label is obviously not the rose.

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Sun, 15 May 2016 #104
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4192 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
In actuality the "event/action/happening" is existing (and dying) in the now moment

It is a fact that I started this forum last year

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Mon, 16 May 2016 #105
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 591 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Fact has reality in the human mind, but also in the world of action

In the world of actions, the act starts and ends. The recording of the act is stored in memory. This memory can have effects/influences on next action and in this way becomes "real".

m christani wrote:
If I get drunk at a cocktail party, tell my boss to go to hell and kiss his wife, tomorrow may bring a fact or two from yesterday. In fact maybe quite a few.

Mike, cause effect chain is a story line (psychologically alive) imposed on action to action movement of life. Self, as director, takes highlights in the story as facts. This is his way of ensuring its existence as controller.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 16 May 2016 #106
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 591 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The label points to the fact that I'm violent or afraid

The label is a conventionally acceptable word pointing towards a recognizable pattern of gestures/behavior/facial expressions etc. The part of the brain that comes up with the label never took part in or was seeing/witnessing the real action. hence, all its pointing has no meaning/substance.

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Mon, 16 May 2016 #107
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 591 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
It is a fact that I started this forum last year

The imprint/image of the action stored in memory and the actual act that took place in the past or is taking place now or may take place in future are of different dimension.

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Mon, 16 May 2016 #108
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4192 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
year
The imprint/image of the action stored in memory and the actual act that took place in the past or is taking place now or may take place in future are of different dimension.

It is still a fact.

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Mon, 16 May 2016 #109
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2164 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

The label points to the fact that I'm violent or afraid

Sudhir: The label is a conventionally acceptable word pointing towards a recognizable pattern of gestures/behavior/facial expressions etc. The part of the brain that comes up with the label never took part in or was seeing/witnessing the real action. hence, all its pointing has no meaning/substance.

T: They're both facts, however. The label one uses is surely a fact. And we've all experienced the fact of anger. Do you mean to say that the fact of the label(the word fear, for example) interferes in seeing/understanding/perceiving the fact of the action, be it fear, anger, greed? The label carries with it an intrinsic condemnation....judgment, therefore we've already created a distance between 'me' and the fear. We can't observe/understand something that we're actively condemning.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 16 May 2016.

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Mon, 16 May 2016 #110
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 591 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Do you mean to say that the fact of the label(the word fear, for example) interferes in seeing/understanding/perceiving the fact of the action, be it fear, anger, greed?

Why fact of label?

Label is nothing but language...and it can be easily changed by the majority of people using that language.

The fact of action can not be altered in any way once it has occurred as it is never available for any interference by anything. Next action does not change the previous one. Each action is finally and irrevocably completed in itself when it is completed.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 16 May 2016 #111
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 591 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The label carries with it an intrinsic condemnation....judgment, therefore we've already created a distance between 'me' and the fear. We can't observe/understand something that we're actively condemning.

Yes...and there is no other known way available to us to look at fear/pain or pleasure without creating the division of observer and observed.

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