Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Above and Beyond them.


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Sat, 07 May 2016 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

Ommen Camp, Holland | 6th Public Talk 2nd August, 1936

Instead of belonging to either of the opposite systems of thought
- faith and science - we must go above and beyond them,
and then only shall we discern that which is true.

Then we shall see that there are many energies whose processes are unique,
and that there is not one, universal force which puts into motion these separate energies.
Man is this unique, self-active energy which has no beginning.
In its self-active development there is consciousness, from which arises individuality. This process is self-sustaining through its own activities of ignorance, prejudice, want, fear. So long as the process of ignorance and want exists there must be fear with its many illusions and escapes; from this process arise conflict and suffering.

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | May 07, 2016

Is to go beyond and above possible by exchanging words or can it only be expressed in the silence deeds of observing??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sat, 07 May 2016 #2
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, re exchanging words:

What good are words unless we pay attention to them? We have to listen without rejecting or accepting, without impatience and boredom, otherwise words are useless. We won't even hear them. We will hear ourselves, the noise in our heads.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Sat, 07 May 2016.

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Sun, 08 May 2016 #3
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
We have to listen without rejecting or accepting, without impatience and boredom

That's what was meant by my saying: "silence deeds of observing"

max greene wrote:
We will hear ourselves, the noise in our heads

but this noise must be recognized as such in this same silence of observing, so listen to them too.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sun, 08 May 2016 #4
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

we hear words ,listening is beyond words is without words ,time is word ,in time we can not listen we hear images from past

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Sun, 08 May 2016 #5
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

thinking is thoughts with images as words in time

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Sun, 08 May 2016 #6
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 740 posts in this forum Offline

things of mind ,words ,exists only in the mind nowhere else ,

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Sun, 08 May 2016 #7
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
. . . in time we can not listen we hear images from past.

There is no time as "past" and "future." It is our belief in past and future that is the source of all of our problems and sorrows. Past and future (time) is the reason for the self.

There is time as a measurement device, time invented by the mind of man, but the idea of time as past and future is a tremendous mistake. The idea of time as past and future is disastrous.

max

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Mon, 09 May 2016 #8
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
we hear words ,listening is beyond words is without words ,
time is word ,in time we can not listen we hear images from past

thinking is thoughts with images as words in time

things of mind ,words ,exists only in the mind nowhere else ,

David,
Listening beyond words acts beyond time with the only way it can reach us....
with silence................ or sometimes words.
Those words have a total quality and are in a way not expresional because of there quality of totality.

max greene wrote:
There is no time as "past" and "future."

Max,
the fact is that we have to start from where we are and where we are is with this deep ingraved structure in our minds.

There are moments in live one see this Truth,

but mostly we can see this
future or past is colouring our vision, our idea...
and longing for it introduce future and holding it is introducing the past.

So Will knowing the structure and seeing the wrong doing in the present be enough...???

Is the idea of awareness not as much disastrous as the idea of time.??

it must being executed...

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 09 May 2016 #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5028 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
things of mind ,words ,exists only in the mind nowhere else ,

I am not sure of this, David. I do, at least, suspect that thoughts can spread outside of the brain. Whether you would call the exterior thought body conspicuousness or not, I don't know.

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Mon, 09 May 2016 #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
s the idea of awareness not as much disastrous as the idea of time.??

Of course ideas are not the actual thing., they are only symbols representing something. As the idea of silence. And ideas readily become ideals, which as you indicate is destructive, conflict-inducing

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Mon, 09 May 2016 #11
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
So Will knowing the structure and seeing the wrong doing in the present be enough...???

The seeing is always the correct action. The mere seeing -- which is also the understanding -- that the present is reality and that "past" and "future" are fabrications of the mind, is all that is necessary.

The problem is that we say, "Yes, yes, I see. Now what?" And that is not seeing; it is thinking.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Mon, 09 May 2016.

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Mon, 09 May 2016 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
The seeing is always the correct action. The mere seeing -- which is also the understanding -- that the present is reality and that "past" and "future" are fabrications of the mind, is all that is necessary.

agreed on this part.

max greene wrote:
The problem is that we say, "Yes, yes, I see. Now what?"

is the problem not deeper than that.??

Is not it also the confusion of consciously or unconsciously hold something for the present while it is not. ??

I realize consciously is not the right word but I can't express it otherwize.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 09 May 2016 #13
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

Wim,

We don't realize that we spend most of our days living in the past, and it is a past of our own making. We pull up memories and we think about these memories and then we make a reality of this thinking through physical reaction. And so we live in a past created from memories, just memories. For the most part, this is how we spend our days.

Through the use of memory we repeat yesterday -- modified a little, but always with the same problems -- over and over. All of this is a perversion of the present through the imposition of a "past" on the natural unfolding of the present.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Mon, 09 May 2016.

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #14
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
We don't realize that we spend most of our days living in the past, and it is a past of our own making. We pull up memories and we think about these memories and then we make a reality of this thinking through physical reaction. And so we live in a past created from memories, just memories. For the most part, this is how we spend our days.

that's for the conscious part but there is a lot unconscious too.

we, you and me and a lot on this forum, are realizing the difference and yet...

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #15
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

I was just saying, Wim, how we, ourselves, create the past. There is no past other than what we create. We turn memory into the past by taking physical action.

max

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #16
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5028 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
We turn memory into the past by taking physical action.

Can you explain this statement, Max?

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #17
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
I was just saying, Wim, how we, ourselves, create the past. There is no past other than what we create. We turn memory into the past by taking physical action.

Max

Do I understand you well if I interpret it this way:

that instead of holding the past alive by giving her energy into the present
- as I see so far - the present has everything and with memory one creates the past ??.

However, what in this equation is Memory. ??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 10 May 2016.

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #18
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

Wim,

Yes. The past is created out of memory. There is no past until we physically act on the memories we recall. Without physical reaction to memory, there is no such thing as "the past."

max

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #19
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
The problem is that we say, "Yes, yes, I see. Now what?"
And that is not seeing; it is thinking.

Is not the moment we say:
"Yes, yes, I see." the introduction of knowledge and the creation of thought.??

coming back on my reply #12

Wim Opdam wrote:
is the problem not deeper than that.??

Is not it also the confusion of consciously or unconsciously hold something for the present while it is not. ??

I realize consciously is not the right word but I can't express it otherwize.

Is not it also the confusion of holding something for the present while it is not. ??

By keeping open what is the origine of this confusion one can assume that there can be something other than thought and science.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #20
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Yes. The past is created out of memory. There is no past until we physically act on the memories we recall. Without physical reaction to memory, there is no such thing as "the past."

Max,

but still remains what is Memory.??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #21
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

Memory is the result of awareness. There is the awareness of something -- the awareness of whatever there might be -- and this experience is encoded in the cells of the brain as a memory.

max

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #22
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
By keeping open what is the origine of this confusion one can assume that there can be something other than thought and science.

Thinking is the confusion itself. Thinking is the brain's process of creating a past out of memory. We then actualize this past through our physical actions, and in so doing we deny the natural, harmonious unfolding of the present.

The "something other" than thought and science is awareness. Awareness is never a denial of the present as awareness is independent of memory. The same cannot be said for thought and science.

max

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #23
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Thinking is the confusion itself. Thinking is the brain's process of creating a past out of memory. We then actualize this past through our physical actions

Sorry to say Max, but this for me seems 'thought'.

as for the rest it doesn't clarify my doubts....can't verify..... looks logical...
but feels not right..

The head says 'Yes' and the heart says 'No' and mostly I follow my heart.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 10 May 2016 #24
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

Good enough, Wim. The object isn't to convince.

max

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Wed, 11 May 2016 #25
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 808 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
The head says 'Yes' and the heart says 'No' and mostly I follow my heart.

Max, it seems K. is present:

There are three conditions of mind:
"I know", "I believe", and "I do not know."

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | May 11, 2016

and in the underlaying article:

"Thus both the "I know" and "I believe" are insecure,
uncertain and not to be relied on.
But if you can say, "I do not know", fully comprehending its significance,
then there is a possibility of perceiving that which is.
To be in a state of not knowing demands great denudation and strenuous effort,
but it is not a negative state; it is a most vital and earnest state for the mind-heart
that does not grasp at explanations and assertions."

After two attempts to describe something which was clear to me by waking up
this article explained the reason why I saw that it didn't make anything clearer.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 11 May 2016.

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