Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.


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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #91
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5426 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia and Jean

Can you bring this present rather personal exchange between the two of you to an end, please. Or carry it on as private messages. It is hardly inquiry now, and is certainly a long way from the topic of the thread.

Clive, as moderator

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #92
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 125 posts in this forum Offline

So now back to the bigger picture and away from personal trivia.

K said that with deep understanding, one moves from the personal - to the general - to the universal.

Any input to that?

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #93
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5426 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K said that with deep understanding, one moves from the personal - to the general - to the universal.

As this is a new topic, why not start a new thread?

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #94
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Choose? Do you feel we can really chose to step out of all identification? Are you putting the usual meaning on that word 'choice'?

Tom

This is a good point, a good pointer to a moment in which we stand before the door of two worlds. Even though I am saying two worlds when the choices are endless yet any choice is still as you say still in time. This I feel is a hard thing to grasp for most people, most awareness's. What's hard to grasp is for awareness to realize that all (being) all choices are time, just redecorations. For awareness existence needs to be an all inclusive experience. Your right if I choose I must begin all inclusively and grasp the fact that even the chooser is one step into the world of time due to the fact that only a moment ago awareness was caught up in being a husband and a father, an employee of a certain company and such. Can we as awareness before picking up a new avatar drop for a moment even the chooser and become aware that in essence we are giving birth to the sense of choice where there is no choice before the chooser is born through our identification and purchase/buy-in to one.
In other words your right it does not matter which door we pick, door one door two or any door leading to a new life, a new structure. All doors are just different decorations of time, different life styles. I am trying to say something and I am having trouble wording it. Here goes:

For awareness which is you and me there is no choice and no chooser, no self till time as self is bought into buy you the awareness. "Raise one particle of dust and the whole world appears". The first particle of dust is the chooser, where did this chooser come from? Then air? Yes it was never born, rather it just came into being by the observer/awareness giving something extra to its self other then just being the observer, in which case we have the observer is the observed. But when awareness picks up something extra it has picked up the duality of the observer is separate from the observed. I probably made a mess out of my explanation :) I am not trying to be an authority, no way. I am just trying to share with an old friend my state of seeing our human condition as awareness:)

There is no other.

This post was last updated by George Lanroh Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #95
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2916 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:

our unconscious identification with time has created and is responsible for the mess we are in both at home and on the battlefield. But I also say that a sword would never be pulled from its scabbard if the reason why it was about to be pulled was seen as empty and meaningless and owing its existence to psychological time.

I'm not clear about the phrase in bold, George. You've used it more than once, and I still have to scratch my head a little when reading it. I understand how we're all conditioned by family, society, education, politics, to accept as a given certain ideals and beliefs. "A man should be a good provider". "A woman should have a home cooked meal ready for her man when he comes home from work every night".....girls should be physically attractive, boys should be physically strong...brave...good fighters.... Kids should obey their parents...don't question authority (at work, in the army, in school, etc). I know in my childhood a TON of such stuff went into my head without questioning....without even being aware that it was happening. Now as an adult when conflicts arise, K tells me that it's due to all the conditioning of the mind...of consciousness. This I understand....how 'I' have been conditioned...brainwashed. Whether or not it can be all undone....shed, like the snake sheds his skin, I can't say. Can you explain a bit further how you see this conditioning as being "an identification with time"? And how you see it as 'optional'?

Let it Be

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #96
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
I would say you are right, that with awareness there is only the object and the awareness of the object. There is no entity who is aware.

Hi Max

Yes, awareness stripped free of everything extra, no false unconscious accumulations of identity added. Maybe this is the point you and I part Max, lets see :) I feel awareness coming upon its original face (timelessness) as the Buddhist would call it has the opportunity to remain free of time an accumulated identity and an accumulated personal life, or it can go forward with accumulating a persona if just for fun, play. If it goes forward as in my reply to Tom it must do so all inclusively which is very much different then the way it has gone forward in the past. In the past awareness has accumulated unconsciously, blindly, dualistically. In doing so the avatar was rigid, concrete, unforgiving, Hitlers, Stalin's, Po Pot's. But what happens when we go forward all inclusive where war becomes a reflection of our inward condition? When we say look at the mess the world is in and we understand that we must look within and nowhere else to cleanup this mess. To understand and full grasp that even though there is really no one to step out of the mess of our accumulated creations awareness can no longer be in it. My old friend will most likely say: "Then why even pickup time?" That is like asking a wizard to never pickup his wand. Why? for the fun of it. It least we are no longer blind men and women waving a stick and wondering why all the commotion. We have seen the relationship between the stick and the creation of time.

There is no other.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #97
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2916 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:
Clive Elwell wrote:

Choose? Do you feel we can really chose to step out of all identification? Are you putting the usual meaning on that word 'choice'?

George:

Tom

This is a good point, a good pointer to a moment in which we stand before the door of two worlds. Even though I am saying two worlds when the choices are endless yet any choice is still as you say still in time

Tom: That was Clive's question, George, but coincidentally one that popped into my mind as well :) May have some input into your message after I've had time to read it more carefully. Interesting posts on this thread..thanks for sharing your perspective here.

Let it Be

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #98
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can you explain a bit further how you see this conditioning as being "an identification with time"? And how you see it as 'optional'?

Tom

Let me first say I wish I had your gift of writing so clear and precise :) Yes what you wrote about conditioning is how it is seen here also. I do not separate time and conditioning being that the world of psychological time has made the map of our world but its not the territory.

I see our conditioning being responsible for our unconscious and sometimes conscious identification with time, psychological time. Often when we feel we are awakening to the truth of our existence we feel we have seen all the conditioning acting upon us as the awareness. I say if there is even one unconscious identification that is enough to completely blind us. Its not that seeing most of our conditioning is not liberating, punching holes in the wall blinding us. It is just one unconscious identification is enough to keep us (awareness) hostage to a particular dream. Take for example a very primal conditioned identification of what humans are. Most of us as the awareness just jump over these basic existential conditionings. We begin our journey to understand ourselves from within the structure of a dream already forged from our conditioning. This is what I mean when I say our identification with time. We begin in time by already being unconsciously identified with that which is made of time, our avatar self.

There is no other.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #99
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2916 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:
Take for example a very primal conditioned identification of what humans are. Most of us as the awareness just jump over these basic existential conditionings. We begin our journey to understand ourselves from within the structure of a dream already forged from our conditioning. This is what I mean when I say our identification with time. We begin in time by already being unconsciously identified with that which is made of time, our avatar self.

Indeed we do! Our mother or father says "you are Tom or X, Y, or Z"....and we accept this as fact. 'I' am 'me'...the basic identification...and separation. Sorry if I'm a little 'dense', but I still don't see how you are bringing time into this. Do you mean past experience as conditioning?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #100
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K: To be aware of what is and not escape into fanciful illusion is the beginning of understanding.

Hi Patricia

The quote by you is a wonderful quote. It does leave open to our error, our interpretation of where the escaping has began. I say the escaping begins the moment time/conditioning has acted upon us as (awareness) unconsciously. When we come upon all of our being is a creation of psychological time and we as the awareness no longer escape within one dream or another but sit in peace, have we not come upon the understanding Krishnamurti spoke of?

Hasn't the "what is" been that we have been divided, conflicted, escaping because we have yet to now realized that we have been intoxicated by a dream that we are more then awareness in this present moment? As awareness there is no place to go and no one to get there. From within the dreams of psychological time we are persons in a terrifying world of our own creation and everyone is out to get us and there is no place to go. Accept: Out!

Krishnamurti "Its not that someone steps out of it, it is the mind is no longer in it".

There is no other.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #101
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Sorry if I'm a little 'dense', but I still don't see how you are bringing time into this. Do you mean past experience as conditioning?

No, sorry Tom, it is most likely me who is dense in the way I am using time. I speak of time like I speak of the boarders of a dream. Time to me is what our awake dream is made of. It is all the conceptualized structures responsible for creating our day time dream keeping us asleep while we are so called awake.
I would call day dreaming a time trip when we have left the reality of the present moment (physical reality) and went into a world that only exist between our ears. Is there a world that exist outside of between our ears? Yes and no, I say it is unknowable, a cosmic soup of the unknown, but it is the dust we wave our conceptual wands over bringing it into the realm of the known. This is why I say there is no knowable world separate from us as the awareness. If this is so we should take full responsibility for any fix we find ourselves in being the boundaries of the knowable world is held in place by our fixation to their truth. A good place to start for this man is:

"From the first not a thing is"

There is no other.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #102
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2916 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:
Time to me is what our awake dream is made of. It is all the conceptualized structures responsible for creating our day time dream keeping us asleep while we are so called awake.

OK, thanks, George. This is a good place to start, I think. All the concepts we have unconsciously accepted are what you are calling time? These concepts are made of mankind's past experiences which have left a mark on the brain...psychological concepts(even the basic concepts of 'you' and 'I').....and that's what's binding us. Am I getting any closer to what you're trying to point out about "time" and the 'me'?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Mon, 22 Feb 2016 #103
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5426 posts in this forum Offline

George

The avatar you refer to in your mails, and all the roles in society that you mention (and so in time) are all forms of identification, are they not? Perhaps you would say “awareness taking up an identity”, although to me it seems more an activity of thought.

Yes, identity always implies time. The very word means, as Bohm once said, “always the same”. It came to me today that the self, which is thought's attempt to obtain permanency in time, must cast its net of so-called permanence over every thing it touches, or everything it creates. Actually it can only touch itself, but it seeks to overcome this limitation by identifying itself with so many things.

Is identification this “something extra” you refer to?

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Mon, 22 Feb 2016 #104
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2916 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Yes, identity always implies time. The very word means, as Bohm once said, “always the same”. I

Continuity in time perhaps? As well as becoming....in future time. I want my pleasures to continue ...in time, of course and I project my pain into a future time creating fear. Just exploring how the human mind which is caught in time(is time?) works.

Let it Be

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Mon, 22 Feb 2016 #105
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is identification this “something extra” you refer to?

Hi Clive

Yes, identification is to me considered the extra. Extra to our original state as awareness which to me is timeless. We are originally without time, without an accumulated identity and with that being so originally free of the influence of time. Clive to me time is neutral, nether good or bad. What makes time bad to these eyes is when we as awareness accumulate it unconsciously and become subject to its influences unconsciously. Most here disagree with me but I feel time is a tool which when in the hands of an awakened being becomes the material in which they can express their creative abilities. It can be used for evil things or helpful things. In the hands of an awakened being/awareness it could never be used for evil things due to the fact an awaked being fully understands that the outer world is a reflection of their inward condition.

Take for an example how most people under the spell of unconscious time as an influence upon them may think they have a particular problem they must solve. They look for an antidote for their problem within time because their problem is within time. We have all been or seen these people, their bodies are here but their attention is upon their dream problem. To me Krishnamurti spoke and used time to defeat the influence of unconscious time upon his fellow man. I don't think Krishnamurti wanted to end us using time, I sense he wanted to end time using us. I feel he wanted to right the cart and the horse putting them back in the proper positions. Could this be the fork in the road Krishnamurti spoke of? Allowing time to control awareness instead of awareness using time?

Using time for (good) is to me: any time we use it with creator and creation being one. If it is using it to help ones fellow man out of an unconscious dream responsible for keeping ones fellow man from leading an awakened life that is pretty good :) It is also solving the problem of mans present condition at its root and not just redecorating the dream land of time.

Clive one thing I mentioned but it is worth mentioning again. As seen here awakening and goodwill toward this world and all beings is inseparable. You just can't find unenlightened intension, poor motives coming from an awakened awareness. I sense motive for actions come from one of two states of mind. One state unconscious of the influence of time and the other conscious of the influence of time. Conscious and one will do nothing without the knowledge that when it comes to our world creator and creation are one. Maybe a selfish reason for not doing evil :)

There is no other.

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