Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.


Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 105 in total
Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #61
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
"To be aware of what is and not escape into fanciful illusion is the beginning of understanding."

Hi Tom

Is there any one or anything to escape from?

Tom to me awareness can come upon the time identity that it has been identifying with and not unconsciously pickup a new one. Awareness can also come upon that the problem it has been working on is also a creation of time. This is the reason it is said often:

"There is no place to go and no one to get there." To me that brilliant illuminating light within (awareness) has the opportunity to come upon its nature of being at the center of both subject and object reality as for being its life giving energy. To me the world of the self of time and the world of time based object reality cannot exist without our buy-in, without our belief, our purchasing power. It is at this point where for me the dreamer and the dream become one and awareness is left holding bag of illusions realizing there was never anyone where to go or anyone to get there. Awareness can now rest in the sense that it knows it is creating by artificial means a journey to take and a reason for taking it. Yet to this mind the journey most often must be taken to discover the emptiness of dualistic pursuits when the dreamer was the first to be unconsciously accepted or dreamt up by awareness. Awareness from the first has no dreamer am I right? IN the end awareness has the possibility of being all seeing but never really the seen, just the invisible :)

There is no other.

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #62
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5426 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Only by give it a name and or quality one introduce time.
it's neutral in itself

Over 400 years ago Shakespeare wrote:

".... for there is nothing either good
or bad, but thinking makes it so."

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #63
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 525 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Does it not all depend on how we RESPOND to suffering?

Yes Clive, 'respond' is a better word than 'deal' (which implies too much thought)

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #64
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5426 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Perhaps someone can cite contrary facts, where the self has brought unity and peace on just as large a scale.

I don't think that anyone is disputing the fact that the self is an extremely destructive thing, Max

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #65
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5426 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How does that 'sense' you speak of come about George?

I suggest that it comes about through negation.

That is, not through any act of will, any determination, any movement from the past. Just pure negation (another word might be "non-action") of all that is false in the mind. By pure awareness of the movements of the mind.

Imagining some reply here - yes, it may be that the mind is falseness itself.

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #66
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5426 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
it depends on how you deal with suffering ...

Would you not say, Jean, that any "dealing with suffering" implies the continuation of suffering?

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #67
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 525 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Would you not say, Jean, that any "dealing with suffering" implies the continuation of suffering?

Yes 'dealing' was inappropriate wording Clive, it suggests some 'cunning' escape invented by a tricky self :-) ... 'responding' is more correct ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2916 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

And there is a right way to 'deal with' suffering?

JeanYes Tom, when you don't resist it ... when you don't try to escape from it

I question this right vs wrong way. It implies a should vs a should not...and a knower of what's right. As I'm seeing it. IT seems to imply a someone who can NOT resist, when in fact one IS resisting...is the resistance.

Let it Be

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #69
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 525 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
IT seems to imply a someone who can NOT resist, when in fact one IS resisting...is the resistance.

No Tom, the 'someone' only appears when there is resistance to 'what is' (in this case the suffering IS what is) ... when there is no resistance, no one is created ... there is no 'doer', no 'thinker', things just happen ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #70
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2916 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
No Tom, the 'someone' only appears when there is resistance to 'what is' (in this case the suffering IS what is) ... when there is no resistance, no one is created

But when resistance is happening...is the fact... who is it that can NOT resist?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 20 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 20 Feb 2016 #71
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2916 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:
Tom to me awareness can come upon the time identity that it has been identifying with and not unconsciously pickup a new one. Awareness can also come upon that the problem it has been working on is also a creation of time.

Hi George,

Can you say how this might come about when one is identified....with job, family, money, etc.? For example: I get a call from my daughter in college. Her laptop died and she wants a new Macbook. I don't have $1000 + bucks to spend as my credit is stretched to the limit as it is. Then I get a call from the police...my son just crashed my car that he borrowed and drugs were found in his posession. Thoughts and emotions flood into my consciousness. Can I just drop it all somehow? Will awareness somehow enter into my complicated and confused existance without me making some effort....thinking about it, wishing for it, or seeking it? Or do I have to begin with 'what is'....my conflict and confusion?? Just questioning...

Let it Be

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #72
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 125 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Thank you, Patricia. I was just reading yesterday the biography of Albert Speer...one of Hitler's closest associates. Reading about the unfathomable suffering these two and their cohorts inflicted upon those who were used for slave labor to mine the stone to build the roads and immense buildings and monuments to the Nazi ego...not to mention the armaments... one was so totally sickened. Thousands of them were literally worked to death.....not even mentioning the mass exterminations we all know of all too well. Suffering such as this has its place? Interesting point made by the author....Speer grew up as a child in a household with very cold and unloving parents. He must have suffered terribly. So we see how suffering mostly perpetuates itself....rather than leading to enlightenment.

Today's QOTD:

"To be aware of what is and not escape into fanciful illusion is the beginning of understanding."

And thank you Tom for you input.

Should we tell the children in Syria who live in daily fear of US/Australian/Russian/Syrian bombs and ISIS on-the-ground horrors that 'suffering has its place too'?

And yes - suffering perpetuates itself - we are witnessing that, are we not, in the very young suicide bombers? Just one example of it. There are many.

The immense tragedy that is occurring in humanity at the present time is largely ignored on these forums. Which begs the question: What is it generally believed K's teaching was about? Feeling good?

Thank you for bringing my attention to that QOTD Tom. Right on cue K! :)

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #73
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 125 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:
Is there any one or anything to escape from?

The actual truth of what is George. Lots of escape going on here!

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #74
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 650 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
The immense tragedy that is occurring in humanity at the present time is largely ignored on these forums.

I'm just thinking, don't these always have the same root- from Serbia, to Northern Ireland, China v. US, N.Korea v. the world- it is necessary to be aware of these, but the roots of nationalism, security, pride, aggression, always remains the same. Can we look at these in ourselves? For there lies the solution.

mike

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #75
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can you say how this might come about when one is identified....with job, family, money, etc.?

Hi Tom

And Patricia I would like to respond to you here also if that is ok. I just feel my response here will cover even the horrors of war being that all human problems are seen here as coming from unconscious associations with psychological time.
I know you have heard me quote this before "Raise one particle of dust and the whole world appears". What I get from this quote is: take for granted that one thought was not born of conceptualization and each and every thought built upon that foundation will be built upon a world of illusion.

If just for a moment can we place ourselves as being awareness at the dawn of time? Be awareness before picking up a particular self to identify with. For a moment one is not a person, a father or a mother, not an employer or an employee, not a soldier or a civilian, nor a coward. For a moment to make my point be no one.
Due to our conditioning we unconsciously pickup a name, a basic identity, if we are an American, an English woman or an Arab. We unconsciously as you know pickup our cultural conditioning and here in the states become Republicans or Democrats. It is from here after we have picked up all our unconscious and conscious conditioning that we ask questions like:
" Can you say how this might come about when one is identified....with job, family, money, etc.?" Or how can you just say all the war and killing in the world is not happening. I agree with you both Patricia and Tom that our unconscious identification with time has created and is responsible for the mess we are in both at home and on the battlefield. But I also say that a sword would never be pulled from its scabbard if the reason why it was about to be pulled was seen as empty and meaningless and owing its existence to psychological time. Krishnamurti if I am correct always pointed to going after the root of man's problem and not the tops. I say the root is unconscious identification with psychological time by the awareness in the human body.
Tom as a side note: You and I as awareness have unconsciously picked up over chronological time an identity and cultural conditioning. There is nothing keeping one a prisoner accept ones identification with these cultural conditionings. We can choose to step out of them at any time and walk away from who we are, job, marriage, children with only our culture holding us some what accountable. I like you feel one has a certain responsibility for the position our unconsciousness has got us in. Besides that family, work and the world of time can be quite rewarding when the cart is once again behind the horse called awareness. But yes we must still live in a world where seven billion other people have not even had a glimpse of their unconscious association with time. What can one due but " Be in the world but not of it" that is the unconscious one that is. You and I, all of us can be aware of when we are dabbling in time. And when we are father and mothers, we are dabbling, even if we have to dabble to make a buck.

There is no other.

This post was last updated by George Lanroh Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #76
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
but the roots of nationalism, security, pride, aggression, always remains the same. Can we look at these in ourselves? For there lies the solution.

Yes, at the root of time is its solution or our non-duality in using it. There is a sense here that there can be a harmony between creator and creation when it is found that they are not separate.

There is no other.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #77
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 33 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Imagining some reply here - yes, it may be that the mind is falseness itself.

Hi Clive

I hesitate to steer this thread off direction but what you said about the mind being falseness its self rings a bell here.

To this man awareness is like a mirror illuminating and reflecting both the psychological and physical worlds, it is nothing more. When it picks up a self, an identity it has picked up an illusion an avatar which has no existence outside of the dimension of psychological time. This is why the self cannot be found outside its concept, the reason thought can't see its own self end is because outside a self concept awareness has no self. It would seem that mother nature has played a trick, bent the reality of one to create a false sense of duality of subject object when there is only object and the awareness of it by awareness. It would seem that awareness is not an object and when we as awareness objectify ourselves unconsciously the end result is blindness and the sleep we are here to awaken from.

I best be gone before accused of babbling :)

There is no other.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #78
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5426 posts in this forum Offline

George, I have been reading your posts most appreciatively. And it seems churlish to pick one single word from all that poetical and penetrative expression of the human condition. But I find that I am drawn to do exactly that.

George Lanroh wrote:
There is nothing keeping one a prisoner accept ones identification with these cultural conditionings. We can choose to step out of them at any time and walk away from who we are, job, marriage, children with only our culture holding us some what accountable.

Choose? Do you feel we can really chose to step out of all identification? Are you putting the usual meaning on that word 'choice'?

Isn't choice at the level of thought? Is not choice just thought choosing from options it itself has created ? As K always points out, is not choice an indicator that the mind is in confusion?

Can one choose freedom?

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #79
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:
It would seem that mother nature has played a trick, bent the reality of one to create a false sense of duality of subject object when there is only object and the awareness of it by awareness.

That is a good post, George.

Is it Mother Nature, or is it we ourselves? As I see it, duality -- the only duality -- is the duality of the psychological and the physical, and it is the physical brain that creates, through thinking, the psychological. The psychological is the imaginary world of thought and the self.

I would say you are right, that with awareness there is only the object and the awareness of the object. There is no entity who is aware.

max

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #80
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 125 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:
If just for a moment can we place ourselves as being awareness at the dawn of time?

K: To be aware of what is and not escape into fanciful illusion is the beginning of understanding.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #81
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 125 posts in this forum Offline

And thank you to Dan for posting this very relevant quote on the general discussion forum:

K:"Thought itself must be aware of creating the structure of the self and its perpetuation."

There is just so much complication perpetuated in all these discussions on the forums. This quote cuts through it all to the crux of the matter.

Forget all the definitions - the above says it all in one simple sentence.

And then there is the action of it..........

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #82
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 1324 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote (quoting Krishnamurti):
"Thought itself must be aware of creating the structure of the self and its perpetuation."

But is it possible for thought to be aware? Can thinking be aware?

max

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #83
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 525 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

No Tom, the 'someone' only appears when there is resistance to 'what is' (in this case the suffering IS what is) ... when there is no resistance, no one is created

But when resistance is happening...is the fact...

Yes Tom ... the resistance becomes 'what is' ... and resistance means anger, frustration, greed, envy, violence etc ... see it ... feel how it operates in you, feel it in your body, this energy in movement ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #84
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 525 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Lots of escape going on here!

Maybe you could tell us what you are trying to escape Patricia ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #85
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 125 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Maybe you could tell us what you are trying to escape Patricia ?

Oh Jean - you do make me laugh! :)

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #86
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 125 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
But is it possible for thought to be aware? Can thinking be aware?

Max - there is only one way to find out and it is not with words.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #87
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 525 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Maybe you could tell us what you are trying to escape Patricia ?

Oh Jean - you do make me laugh! :)

Maybe laughing is another escape Patricia :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #88
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 525 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
But is it possible for thought to be aware? Can thinking be aware?

Seems to me that only awareness can be aware :-)

... and of course thought itself as any 'form' is inseparable from awareness ... awareness being the space in which all forms (psychological and material) appear/manifest

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #89
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 125 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Maybe laughing is another escape Patricia :-)

Give up Jean! Stop trying to analyse what you clearly do not understand. (In both your above postings #87 and #88 by the way.)

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #90
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 525 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Give up Jean! Stop trying to analyse what you clearly do not understand. (In both your above postings #87 and #88 by the way.)

Do you mean that those posts 'irritated' you Patricia ? Are you 'irritated' by what you perceive as a lack of understanding ?

Or are you irritated by something else within yourself ?

... in which case it would be an opportunity to learn something on yourself Patricia, isn't it ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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