Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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No one got it or did they?

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Mon, 09 Feb 2015 #1
Thumb_stringio steve sds United States 114 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack wrote in the general forum: "Just a brief note to dispel one of the great myths perpetrated on this site by some of the people who habitually post here.

Toward the end of his book, "Knocking on the Open Door" Mark Lee relates the instance that has been so often bantered about on this forum. In the last few days of K's life he said something close to (I don't have the exact quote and it is difficult to find on a Kindle) "None of you have been transformed, none of you got it". He said this to seven people, Mark Lee and six others, who were key players in the schools and foundations. At the time they were standing at K's bedside.

They all later agreed that K was speaking only about them and was referring to no one else. How could K, after all, know whether everyone who talked to him, heard him talk, read his books or watched his videos "got it" or not? He could not was their conclusion."

I was wondering if we could look at this here. It seems like there is a lot to ponder on in it, everything from why no one present at his deathbed was transformed or got the teachings, to how would K know if they did or not, etc.

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Mon, 09 Feb 2015 #2
Thumb_stringio David Thatcher United Kingdom 10 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

They were still listening to him, awaiting further information, is how (I suspect) he knew.

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Tue, 10 Feb 2015 #3
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 8 posts in this forum Offline

David Thatcher wrote:
... how (I suspect) he knew.

"Yes, you all must go down to the pier at mid-nite and wait for my signal..."

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 10 Feb 2015.

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Tue, 10 Feb 2015 #4
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 105 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Steve:'I was wondering if we could look at this here. It seems like there is a lot to ponder on in it, everything from why no one present at his deathbed was transformed or got the teachings, to how would K know if they did or not, etc.

Mina: No, no, no. Hearing those words coming out of my mouth after these lines Steve. But they have no judgemental content, but something deeper is being felt.

Will put it as follows:

YOU are the one present at his deathbed. YOU are also the one about whom you wonder how he would know or not, if those present (who are also you) at K's deathbed had understood the teaching or not. There is no real separation.

From that separation between thinker and thought, which is the creation of the observer, the 'you' as an image, starts analysis and speculation.

Instead of speculating, can we see directly, without the cloud of image?

Can we look at what you wish to look at in this thread, without any time/thought interfering?

Love
Mina

This post was last updated by Mina Martini (account deleted) Tue, 10 Feb 2015.

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Tue, 10 Feb 2015 #5
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 105 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

'No one got it or did they?'

m: There is no other, all is in you. Any questions acquire a fundamental meaning and infinite potential when it is posed to oneself, embraced in one's whole being, in the understanding that there is no other. Whether anyone has got it or not depends on what is happening in you. All others, everything, lives in you.

Love

This post was last updated by Mina Martini (account deleted) Tue, 10 Feb 2015.

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Wed, 11 Feb 2015 #6
Thumb_stringio steve sds United States 114 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I have read your two posts here Mina a few times and find it interesting. I dont know how to proceed though.

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Wed, 11 Feb 2015 #7
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 105 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes dear Steve I understand..

In my replies I was describing an insight into 'you are the world' or 'the observer is the observed'. Of course, at the level of words, they do not make much sense.

No need to proceed...unless something spontaneously comes..sorry if I sort of unwillingly ended the thread before it had even begun...:-)

But that is fundamentally what observation does to thought..

in love and friendship
Mina

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Wed, 11 Feb 2015 #8
Thumb_stringio David T United Kingdom 5 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

'No one got it'
How can another give you what you have already got?
No one can give it to you or take it away for that matter.
The question should be why do I not see that I already have all that I need.

I am a figment of my and your imagination

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Wed, 11 Feb 2015 #9
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 105 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes David...and this is exactly 'what we do not get'...the realisation that there is nothing to get since we are already all of life..

Love

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Thu, 12 Feb 2015 #10
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 456 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

steve sds wrote:
I was wondering if we could look at this here. It seems like there is a lot to ponder on in it, everything from why no one present at his deathbed was transformed or got the teachings, to how would K know if they did or not, etc.

Hi Steve. There is indeed a lot to ponder on there. The real problem is how to broach or approach it. We invariably approach any such questions from 'the world' (ie. from the world we 'know'; the world of 'knowledge'). That world belongs already to the snappy intellects of the political leaders and their nascent kind

got to go cus I'm in a public library and the dog is in the way of the entrance.

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

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Thu, 12 Feb 2015 #11
Thumb_stringio steve sds United States 114 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Mina, i better understand where you are coming from now after reading your posts in the Justice thread. Dont worry, you didnt end the thread. Your perspective serves its purpose and has a place.

John, yes there is a lot to ponder on here. If we are up to it, one of these days we can delve into some of this. I am a little low of energy at the moment and you seem busy these days. Hope you are well and am glad you got to stop in for a moment.

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Sun, 15 Feb 2015 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 2 posts in this forum Offline

No one will ever get it !!!!
So why so much pondering over?
This is a haiku which may give some light on the subject:

When "I" see the light
I don't see anything
Light is blinding me.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 16 Feb 2015 #13
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 105 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear Wim,

Welcome!

"When "I" see the light
I don't see anything
Light is blinding me."

Beautiful. Light and the 'me/blindness' never meet.

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Mon, 16 Feb 2015 #14
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 2 posts in this forum Offline

That’s also the reason why the title: “Lives in the shadow of Krishnamurti” give some light and doubts on the content of it.
If you are a light from and for yourself where is the shadow ?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 16 Feb 2015 #15
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 105 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

'“Lives in the shadow of Krishnamurti” give some light and doubts on the content of it.
If you are a light from and for yourself where is the shadow ?

Mina: Right, beautiful. In light there is no shadow of K or of yourself, which means there is no shadow of an image.

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Mon, 16 Feb 2015 #16
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 456 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

steve sds wrote:
Jack wrote in the general forum: "Just a brief note to dispel one of the great myths perpetrated on this site by some of the people who habitually post here.

Yes, it's needed I think, Steve.

Toward the end of his book, "Knocking on the Open Door" Mark Lee relates the instance that has been so often bantered about on this forum. In the last few days of K's life he said something close to (I don't have the exact quote and it is difficult to find on a Kindle) "None of you have been transformed, none of you got it". He said this to seven people, Mark Lee and six others, who were key players in the schools and foundations. At the time they were standing at K's bedside.

They all later agreed that K was speaking only about them and was referring to no one else. How could K, after all, know whether everyone who talked to him, heard him talk, read his books or watched his videos "got it" or not? He could not was their conclusion."

One thing should be very clearly understood: despite the fact that to the confused (dual) state, knowledge-based understanding counts for everything, still the mind is aware that it doesn't actually know anything. That is what causes the feelings of insecurity we call angst. However, when true spiritual insight 'happens', then the brain doesn't have any 'wriggle-room' for doubt. In other words when true spiritual insight IS, doubt (and hence angst) is dispelled. The person is always aware that something has occurred and that this is its effect. They might not have the slightest clue (as I didn't) about what has occurred, but they can't not know that something very significant has happened.

What I'm trying to say, Steve, is that if any of the seven round K's bed had actually 'got it' (ie. actually heard him as opposed to just thinking they did), then they themselves would be aware of it and would be in no doubt about it.

While we're on the subject it is a mistake to suppose that K wouldn't also be aware if any of them had 'got it'. He would know it in the briefest conversation with any that 'got it'. It's how I myself become aware, even over the internet, of the difference between eg. Richard Lewis, Huguette and Si Nguyen on the one hand and Joe Neyer, Pavil Davidov and Jean Gatti on the other. There is no comparison.

I was wondering if we could look at this here. It seems like there is a lot to ponder on in it, everything from why no one present at his deathbed was transformed or got the teachings, to how would K know if they did or not, etc.

Yes there is the whole world to 'ponder on' here Steve: like for example the difference between the 'shores'; and also whether K (and his ilk) are dead or not? If they die then there can be no point to all of this stuff. And if they don't die then they are still here with us. My money's on the latter. But let's go into some of these things.

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

This post was last updated by John Perkins (account deleted) Tue, 17 Feb 2015.

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Tue, 17 Feb 2015 #17
Thumb_stringio steve sds United States 114 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes, John, i appreciate your post 16. If you want to go into some of these things, into further exploration, please lead the way and i will join in. I will try to get my intensity back for this.

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Tue, 17 Feb 2015 #18
Thumb_3018 Richard Lewis Bulgaria 100 posts in this forum Offline

Add a lame to the blind, then they can go together to get it, lol.

This post was last updated by Richard Lewis Tue, 17 Feb 2015.

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Tue, 17 Feb 2015 #19
Thumb_stringio steve sds United States 114 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Richard, your post # 18 who is it addressed to, who is it about? Please clarify what you are intending to say here, thanks.

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Tue, 17 Feb 2015 #20
Thumb_3018 Richard Lewis Bulgaria 100 posts in this forum Offline

HIHI sds. It was a second opinion to post 13.

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Tue, 17 Feb 2015 #21
Thumb_stringio steve sds United States 114 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Thank you for clarifying Richard, it makes more sense when it is in context like this. Left alone, i am left to ponder what it is about.

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Tue, 17 Feb 2015 #22
Thumb_stringio steve sds United States 114 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Wim,

In post 14 you mention Lives in the Shadow. That title is interesting in itself as you mentioned. This topic is progressing in its own way, naturally, without forcing it, it is going deeper. Thanks.

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Tue, 17 Feb 2015 #23
Thumb_3018 Richard Lewis Bulgaria 100 posts in this forum Offline

Okay,sds. Here a little ponder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor#mediaview...

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Wed, 18 Feb 2015 #24
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 456 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Further to my #16 then Steve. JC said something like 'Whoso believes in me shall never die'. Firstly I'd suggest that for 'me' (in the quote) read 'the truth'. Whoever sees 'the truth' cannot doubt it because the very nature of singularity is that there is no duality in it (I think that's known as an oxymoron); hence there is no room for doubt in true seeing. Secondly JC obviously doesn't mean no demise of the body because we know that all physical things are finite. In Buddhism and the Vedic stuff the demise of the body is assumed but no 'rebirth' (ie. on enlightenment; nirvana; moksha). No rebirth of course allows of no more death. Thus they are all saying the same thing (don't tell Pavil, it's a waste of time ha ha!).

Further to this if the likes of K die then all of this and all of the teachings are empty of meaning. If they do die then there is nowhere for man to go. He is trapped in a permanent groundhog day of misery and strife. There is no point becoming as seeing as K because you're only going to pointlessly and uselessly vanish anyway.

So where do we go from there with this subject of 'Nobody got it'?

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

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Wed, 18 Feb 2015 #25
Thumb_stringio steve sds United States 114 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

John, you brought up many good points in post 16 and now 24. I think we are dealing with a different level of reality than most of us think about and live from. We are used to things changing and not lasting and not having much importance. We are investigating something here that is of the utmost value and meaning.

K was looking for something of a fundamentally different plane of reality lets say when he was looking out at the seven or so in the room when he was dying. He was seeing if they were of the same wavelength as him or if they were still of this world lets say. He clearly saw they were still of this world and not fundamentally different than it or changed in any deep way. And they would carry on as such. They did not have true spiritual insight as you call it. Hence, they were also still blind then, not clear seeing.

And i think you are right, if they did change, if something happened to them, they would know it, it would be clear and obvious, that they werent the same person they were before.

Now as to the question if K lives on or not, 'Whoso believes in me shall never die', we all know the physical body dies, is gone, done, over. But truth is something that might not die, that has meaning beyond one small paltry life. I dont know how to proceed further with that, but sense something in that quote that JC said, about never dying. And it appears Ks legacy did not end with Ks death, it is just as alive and vital as it was when he was alive. The flame and passion of Ks teachings live on and still speak truth to countless people today. Will pause here at the moment and see where this leads.

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Thu, 19 Feb 2015 #26
Thumb_stringio John Perkins United Kingdom 456 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

steve sds wrote:
But truth is something that might not die, that has meaning beyond one small paltry life. I dont know how to proceed further with that, but sense something in that quote that JC said, about never dying. And it appears Ks legacy did not end with Ks death, it is just as alive and vital as it was when he was alive. The flame and passion of Ks teachings live on and still speak truth to countless people today. Will pause here at the moment and see where this leads.

Indeed Steve, words spoken from the place where ego is no more are words of a different caliber altogether. For me they are the very words spoken of in the 'man does not live by bread alone passage, which is to say they are the very words that 'issue from the mouth of god'. That's why the K teachings are a living thing, sitting within a mass of humanity mostly content with 'bread alone'. And even when an individual catches a smidgen of the living words, they tend to receive them with the gravest suspicion and doubt. And to boot, as we know, always there are the blocking factors, the profusion of specious presentations made endlessly by the intellectually sharp super egos and the officials blind enough forever to lend them a platform (and even disallow their questioning). Hey ho! my friend, humanity forever has truth on its back foot and counts itself the winner as it burns.... lol.

Dialogue mirrors relationship; who can't, has none.

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Sat, 21 Feb 2015 #27
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 18 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

John Perkins wrote:
Further to this if the likes of K die then all of this and all of the teachings are empty of meaning. If they do die then there is nowhere for man to go. He is trapped in a permanent groundhog day of misery and strife. There is no point becoming as seeing as K because you're only going to pointlessly and uselessly vanish anyway.

K spoke about his vision for a study center in 1984:

"They must last for a thousand years, unpolluted, like a river that has the capacity to cleanse itself; which means no authority whatsoever for the inhabitants. And the teaching in themselves have the authority of truth."

-A Vision of the Sacred, Sunanda Patwardhan

It is clear the teaching was meant to endure.

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Sun, 22 Feb 2015 #28
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 8 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
K spoke about his vision for a study center in 1984:

"They must last for a thousand years, unpolluted, like a river that has the capacity to cleanse itself; which means no authority whatsoever for the inhabitants. And the teaching in themselves have the authority of truth."

-A Vision of the Sacred, Sunanda Patwardhan

It is clear the teaching was meant to endure.

Good. Mike.

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 22 Feb 2015.

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