Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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the purpose of being

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Fri, 05 Jun 2009 #1
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

The purpose of being,can it be without the conditioned "I ".Pure observation will not allow the Observer to be the observed.Thought is the thinker.Being is living in relationship with man,nature and all living creatures.This is a fact,not psychological 'I'.But wholistic intelligence operating,with love and compassion.What has no place in being, it is living and dying moment to moment.Can we thing together and test it in reality now.

max

This post was last updated by Berthram Redwood Sat, 06 Jun 2009.

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Fri, 05 Jun 2009 #2
Thumb_avatar Richard Kover United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

Assuming of course that there is "a purpose of being", it seems to me it is unimportant to determine what that purpose might be. Is there a purpose in ending fear or ending non-love?

Are you sure "Pure observation will not allow the Observer to be the observed"? Or, is pure observation when the observer is the observed?

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Fri, 05 Jun 2009 #3
Thumb_br Berthram Redwood India 11 posts in this forum Offline

You are right,choiceless awareness is effortless it comes with pure observation.In this there is no doer.It is non fragmented,wholistic response. The observer does not exist.
Intelligence is the light to love and compassion

Bert

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Fri, 05 Jun 2009 #4
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:

The purpose of being,can it be without the conditioned "I ".Pure observation will not allow the Observer to be the observed.Thought is the thinker.Being is living in relationship with man,nature and all living creatures.This is a fact,not psychological 'I'.But wholistic intelligence operating,with love and compassion.What has no place in being, it is living and dying moment to moment.Can we thing together and test it in reality now.


max

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Fri, 05 Jun 2009 #5
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
max greene wrote:

The purpose of being,can it be without the conditioned "I ".Pure observation will not allow the Observer to be the observed.Thought is the thinker.Being is living in relationship with man,nature and all living creatures.This is a fact,not psychological 'I'.But wholistic intelligence operating,with love and compassion.What has no place in being, it is living and dying moment to moment.Can we thing together and test it in reality now.


max

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Fri, 05 Jun 2009 #6
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

max greene did not write the above. It is a total misquote. How can this happen in forums of this nature?

max

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Fri, 05 Jun 2009 #7
Thumb_avatar Richard Kover United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

I wonder, is it that "the observer" does not exist at all, or that, when non-awareness ends, the observer does not exist as an entity separate from observation, but is integral to the observation, or rather, is the observation? RK

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Sat, 06 Jun 2009 #8
Thumb_br Berthram Redwood India 11 posts in this forum Offline

sorry there was error ,you are truely honest.your view is respected.Even if it happens please over look.Love, please respond to what was forward accidently in your name.

Bert

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Sat, 06 Jun 2009 #9
Thumb_br Berthram Redwood India 11 posts in this forum Offline

YES IT IS THE RIGHT DECISION,WHICH IS GOODNESS,RIGHT LIVING..

Bert

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Sat, 06 Jun 2009 #10
Thumb_br Berthram Redwood India 11 posts in this forum Offline

YOU MUST SEE IT FOR YOURSELF,TEST IT OUT.
Unlearning is the key,no accumulation.

Bert

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Sat, 06 Jun 2009 #11
Thumb_jan09_012 Peter Stephens Australia 53 posts in this forum Offline

I meet people who understand, comprehend, this sense of a conditioned, corrupt, self, but it is all part of a view of life as a reality. This is the fragmentation. I have a view of life which I am using, organising, manipulating, to progress and succeed. When I see this full on, when there is no I, self, there is the likelihood it is treated as a shock, a frightening exposure, and after recovery from the shock I am very quickly accepting I as normal again.

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Sat, 06 Jun 2009 #12
Thumb_br Berthram Redwood India 11 posts in this forum Offline

Thought is the past and is limited,it is based on knowledge,experience and memory.It is seeing ,that a radical Transformation takes place.you're near, be with it,
Test it again with love and compassion. Effortless......

Bert

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Sat, 06 Jun 2009 #13
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

I agree, Bert, thought is the past and the present is accessible only through seeing. Here's a little scenario to demonstrate this:

Say that you are walking down a beautiful lane early in the morning, watching the birds, seeing the clouds, feeling the first warm breeze of the day. You are alert to all of this, aware of it all. Now a thought comes into your head of an unresolved business problem from yesterday. You begin to think about it, mull it over in your mind. You do this for several minutes. Now your mind comes back to your walk. I think you will find that those several minutes are actually blank, so far as being aware of what was happening on your walk. You were thinking, involved with the past, and you missed the present completely!

max

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #14
Thumb_br Berthram Redwood India 11 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Max ,
You have stated a fact which is true,it happened several times to me,i went blank i was not in present.Today I must be honest after silence =,mind not chattering,passive attention.the background and the actuality are totally encapsulated.There is no center,no doer it happens.
Break the mechanical function of identification and registering and concluding.Just be attentive passively.
Keep your window open.It may come.

Bert

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #15
Thumb_jan09_012 Peter Stephens Australia 53 posts in this forum Offline

Say i am a typical person with family, friends, work colleagues, etc. I am interacting with these people. So transformation is not mine alone, nor is it without affect on the normal interactions. There is a shock. I question this plan for transformation. I question the plan for a compassionate change. Far from compassionate it is a destruction. The only compassion is a care and understanding of people.

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #16
Thumb_avatar Richard Kover United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Stephens wrote:

...transformation is not mine alone, nor is it without affect on the normal interactions. There is a shock. I question this plan for transformation. I question the plan for a compassionate change. Far from compassionate it is a destruction. The only compassion is a care and understanding of people.


A shock cannot be planned. Also, any plan must be put together by a self-interested thinker. So, that makes sense. But, is the "only" compassion of which you speak in the realm of knowledge? Maybe there is also a compassion which happens when knowledge is not operating.

This post was last updated by Richard Kover Sun, 07 Jun 2009.

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #17
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

Richard,

Probably true compassion is possible only when knowledge is not operating, when thought and planning are absent. Anything else is sentiment and emotion.

max

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #18
Thumb_avatar Richard Kover United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Anything else is sentiment and emotion.

That is the beauty of self-knowledge. Even if "anything else is sentiment and emotion", we can look at that, which we can't do with compassion.

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #19
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

Richard,

What is it that you are saying we can't look at with compassion?

max

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #20
Thumb_avatar Richard Kover United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:

Richard,

What is it that you are saying we can't look at with compassion?


Sorry for not being clear. The words were intended to convey the notion that, whereas we can talk about the nature of compassion which does flow from knowledge, we cannot talk reliably about the nature of a "compassion" which does not flow from knowledge. We can speculate and share ideas about such compassion, but those ideas are likely to reflect some wishful thinking.

This post was last updated by Richard Kover Sun, 07 Jun 2009.

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #21
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

Richard,

". . . we cannot talk reliably about a "compassion" which does not flow from knowledge."

True. Similarly,then, we cannot talk about love and understanding which does not flow from knowledge. But knowledge is the past, the known. I don't see love and understanding flowing from that. If it did, why are there such problems in the Middle East?

max

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #22
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

Peter,

Insight, understanding and self-knowledge may be disruptive to the course of one's life--but what can be done about it? Once one understands something, sees something for what it is, he simply can't go back and "unsee" it. One can find distractions (of which there are a-plenty in our pleasure-seeking society) or start drinking and taking drugs. By these means he can try to forget and try to dull his capacity to see and think--but facts are facts and they will remain so, whether he sees them or not.

All one can do is to be reasonable, to act reasonably, and to give to society that which it is due.

max

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #23
Thumb_avatar Richard Kover United States 13 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
But knowledge is the past, the known. I don't see love and understanding flowing from that. If it did, why are there such problems in the Middle East?

Don't the problems in the Middle East spring from the same root as problems everywhere on the planet, namely, the corruption that happens in the human brain?

This post was last updated by Richard Kover Tue, 09 Jun 2009.

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #24
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

Richard,

Just possibly, that corruption is knowledge and thinking.

max

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Mon, 08 Jun 2009 #25
Thumb_jan09_012 Peter Stephens Australia 53 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
All one can do is to be reasonable, to act reasonably, and to give to society that which it is due.

this makes sense when i have selected for myself a role where i fit in, get food, clothing, shelter. Basically though the role is an adjustment I have made to the world at large. It is not a deeper understanding of myself.

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Mon, 08 Jun 2009 #26
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 49 posts in this forum Offline

"It is not a deeper understanding of myself."

No it isn't. You have to do that on your own time!

max

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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 #27
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 11 posts in this forum Offline

Richard Kover wrote:
Don't the problems in the Middle East spring from the same problems everywhere on the planet, namely, the corruption that happens in the human brain?

Of course.

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Wed, 10 Jun 2009 #28
Thumb_jan09_012 Peter Stephens Australia 53 posts in this forum Offline

I am questioning the compassion you talk about because I am saying what is anything if not how I am relating to people? I can be getting the words clear, getting my understanding clear, and be practicing compassion, and not actually understanding the person right in front of me. So by relating I mean listening, considering, attending. I might be dishing out compassion and not understand who it is I am dishing it out to. There are compassion junkies.

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Wed, 10 Jun 2009 #29
Thumb_jan09_012 Peter Stephens Australia 53 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:

"It is not a deeper understanding of myself."

No it isn't. You have to do that on your own time!


Right. This is the kind of understanding that doesn't work because I am doing it part time. I question the notion of two types of thought; technical thought and psychological thought.

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #30
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 11 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Stephens wrote:
max greene wrote:

"It is not a deeper understanding of myself."

No it isn't. You have to do that on your own time!


Right. This is the kind of understanding that doesn't work because I am doing it part time. I question the notion of two types of thought; technical thought and psychological thought.


Ok Peter, think of it this way. Not as mechanical thought and psychological though but rather one type of thinking that leads to disorder and the other does not.

Thinking about experiences that have happened to me in the past and then acting based on pain and pleasure leads to neurotic behavior and conflict while thinking about how to get from here to there or learning how to drive does not.

There is not two types of thinking there is only one thinking but since one must think because without thinking we will be a vegetable, there is one thinking that is necessary for us to function and the other not only is not necessary but is the birth place of violence
etc.

Example war between two parties based on memory of the past.

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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