Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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IDENTITY


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Thu, 02 Jun 2011 #1
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Do you think I know what I'm doing?

That for one breath or half-breath I belong to myself?

As much as the pen knows what it's writing,

or the ball can guess where it's going next.

(Rumi - 13th Century)

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 02 Jun 2011 #2
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Only Breath - A Poem by Rumi

Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, nor Hindu, Buddhist, sufi or zen. Not any religion

or cultural system. I am not from the East or the West, not out of the ocean or up

from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not composed of elements at all. I do not exist,

am not an entity in this world or the next, did not descend from Adam and Eve or any

origin story. My place is placeless, a trace of the traceless. Neither body or soul.

I belong to the beloved, have seen the two worlds as one and that one call to and know,

first, last, outer, inner, only that breath, breathing human being

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 02 Jun 2011 #3
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

WHO SAYS WORDS WITH MY MOUTH? - Rumi

All day I think about it, then at night I say it.

Where did I come from and what am I supposed to be doing?

I have no idea

My soul is from elsewhere. I'm sure of that,

and I intend to end up there.

This drunkeness began in some other tavern.

When I get back around to that place,

I'll be completely sober. Meanwhile,

I'm like a bird from another continent, sitting in this aviary.

The day is coming when I'll fly off,

but who is it now in my ear who hears my voice?

Who says words with my mouth?

Who looks out with my eyes? What is the soul?

I cannot stop asking.

If I could taste one sip of an answer,

I could break out of this prison for drunks.

I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.

Whoever brought me here will have to take me home.

This poetry. I never know what I am goiung to say.

I don't plan it.

When I'm outside the saying of it,

I get very quiet and rarely speak at all.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 02 Jun 2011 #4
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I like that some north American tribes used not to name their babies until they were a few year's old when some of their essential traits could be seen. Then they were named accordingly, Running Water, Silent Star, Black Elk, Crazy Horse. Can you imagine what that boy, Crazy Horse must have shown as a small child to be so-named?

There was something real about that sort of naming. And it allowed a natural maturation of what was essential. For youth today there is nothing but the perpetual crisis of identity with no-one knowing who or what they are or how to find out. Who is going to be their mentor? And so they become slaves of a commercialised culture.

Identity has become identity-crisis or crisis of false identity. It is one of the deepest fault-lines threatening us. This constant feeling of existential displacement. Much of the yearning for fulfillment through property, belief and achievement must come from that. We have lost the root of ourselves.

Identity has become a wretched thing.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 02 Jun 2011.

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #5
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Where did I come from and what am I supposed to be doing?

I have no idea

I do not know just what is that I am like. I wander about concealed and wrapped in thought. When the first born of Order came to me, I won a share of this Speech.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Fri, 03 Jun 2011.

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #6
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
WHO SAYS WORDS WITH MY MOUTH? - Rumi

I am the one who says, by myself, what gives joy to gods and men. The one who eats food, who truly sees, who breathes, who hears what is said, does through me. Though they do not realize it, they dwell in me. Listen whom they have heard: what I tell you should be heeded.

Speech.10.125 The Rig Veda(could not attribute any historical time (as well as psychological)

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Fri, 03 Jun 2011.

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #7
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

'Do you think I know what I'm doing?

That for one breath or half-breath I belong to myself?

As much as the pen knows what it's writing,

or the ball can guess where it's going next.'

m: Beautiful. This timeless flow never stops to know what it is, to form any identity.

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #8
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Mina Martini wrote:
This timeless flow never stops to know what it is, to form any identity.

To understand a thing is to see its relation to all and everything. To define a thing is to defile that relationship. That is why thought always creates friction with actuality.

What is it to think oneself an Id-Entity?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #9
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
To understand a thing is to see its relation to all and everything.

Paul Davidson wrote:
That is why thought always creates friction with actuality.

Paul, won't the right understanding of the first quote make the use of 'always' incorrect in the second quote?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #10
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
This timeless flow never stops to know what it is, to form any identity.

Well said, Mina! A bubble has no actual separate identity in the timeless flow although it can boast of an individual "I" for a limited period of time.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #11
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Paul, won't the right understanding of the first quote make the use of 'always' incorrect in the second quote?

I had said that To understand something one must see its relationship with all and everything. Thought abstracts the thing from its relationshps and thereby can never lead to understanding.

But if we can really understand this grinding motion of thought then we can use it fruitfully.

You would be right, Sudhir, if thought was a medium of understanding. In which case thought, used correctly, would not produce friction. That would be correct. But I am saying that nothing can be understood through thought. Thought may be involved in a process which leads to understanding, if used correctly, but thought itself understands nothing. Thought can verbalise, it can use words. Thought is verbalisation.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #12
Thumb_flower_4 Ana Flavia Lucas Brazil 28 posts in this forum Offline

Poem from Ricardo Reis ( one of the heteronomous of Fernando Pessoa, a Portuguese writer)

Countless lives inhabit us.

I don’t know, when I think or feel,

Who it is that thinks or feels.

I am merely the place

Where things are thought or felt.

I have more than just one soul.

There are more I’s than I myself.

I exist, nevertheless,

Indifferent to them all.

I silence them: I speak.

The crossing urges of what

I feel or do not feel

Struggle in who I am, but I

Ignore them. They dictate nothing

To the I I know: I write.

Paul, what about IdentitieS? Part of the crisis? And what about the I I know that ignores and silences them? Just another delusion? Or merely the place where things are thought or felt??

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Fri, 03 Jun 2011 #13
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Ana Flavia. How delightful to meet you again, here. People pop up everywhere. This is how we will inhabit the universe one day!

The poem you present is very apposite (to the point). I do not quite know what Ricardo Reis meant by "the I, I know" but there is always this sensation of 'me-ness' and it is also there in observation.

I can be present in myself but can I be present in you? So there is something particular about This, Here, Now, which is not you, there, him, her or any other. I may use K's words and say 'we are the world' and that is true at one level, but there is more, isn't there? There are many levels and truth changes according to its level.

If there is direct observation of the inner life, is there any division between the observer and what is being observed? The question answers itself because direct observation implies no division. It is the 'feeling out' of a thing from the inside and the outside simultaneously, to the extent possible. Even the division between inside and outside vanishes.

Then, I am not looking at my thought. There is instead this feeling out of the whole of myself from the inside out. It is a question of an absolute sensitivity to what is. There is no separate 'I.' Instead there is an integral being. But what to name it?

Ricardo Reis seems to be saying there is an 'I' which sees and knows the other 'I's.' I think he is saying that. But is he correct to call it 'I' or will this just add to the confusion? K spoke of observation without the observer and the question comes back, what is the observing agent or agency? And I think we can get lost in words.

It may be enough to note that whatever one may choose to call that agency, it is clearly not part of any separative process.

Gurdjieff used to talk of a true self coming into being, which is no more than the integrated being. K spoke of the dangers of such formulations. Rumi, above, is asking what is this that sees through these eyes? Again, there is the danger of thinking that it is God that is seeing. Ganesan sent some lines from the Rig Veda (pasted below) that seemed to me to indicate that sort of perspective, which I believe is a mistake, because it personalises things.

"The one who eats food, who truly sees, who breathes, who hears what is said, does through me. Though they do not realize it, they dwell in me."

I am sure when it was written it did not mean that God is literally a person within us, but it has been taken as such. and is open to that interpretation. But let us consider the quality of mind behind that seeing.

Direct perception is a quality of mind that has fallen into disuse as thought picks up speed during infancy. It does not get developed further than one's infancy. Is this not a terrible thing to face? Something that is an essential quality in one is allowed to fall away, hardly touched and replaced by thought, something already worn out through centuries of misuse!

K said in London in 1952 that it is an essential function of mind to search for that which is beyond itself. That is (in my own words), there is something that remains within mind, despite its conditioning, something that needs to develop and prosper. But it can only do so when the other dies. Mind knows intimately that it is, in itself, a lonely and craven thing. But it does not know what it lacks.

What the mind lacks is integral being. It will never find an integrated place in the world unless and until it finds some integrity within itself. This is what Rumi points to in his poem about the plaintive cry of the reed flute separated from the reeded river bed. We yearn for that integrity with which we were born, the birthright we sold for a bowl of pottage (Genesis - story of brothers Jacob and Esau).

There are moments wherein we find such integrity of being and it feels so real that one is tempted to scream, "I AM THAT I AM." But in the very naming of it, the moment fades. Maybe it is better to leave certain things nameless. Besides, these days, God-moments are two a penny!

Ana, please write more. You always bring something new and fresk, and always from the heart.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 05 Jun 2011 #14
Thumb_flower_4 Ana Flavia Lucas Brazil 28 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
That is (in my own words), there is something that remains within mind, despite its conditioning, something that needs to develop and prosper. But it can only do so when the other dies. Mind knows intimately that it is, in itself, a lonely and craven thing. But it does not know what it lacks.

What the mind lacks is integral being.

Thank you for your beautiful answer, Paul. I usually read the posts here but don't feel like posting myself - not much to say. Anyhow, it is a way of being together and understanding together, even when just reading, isn't it?

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Tue, 07 Jun 2011 #15
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ana Flavia Lucas wrote:
not much to say. Anyhow, it is a way of being together and understanding together, even when just reading, isn't it?

I suppose one can say a lot by not saying much, Ana. Does it mean that by saying a lot, I am saying very little?

But it is important to know one another's presense and it is always good to receive from you Ana Flavia, however much or little.

Take very good care of yourself. Post when you feel like it.

But also, there are so many people who visit the site and do not speak. And it does not have to be something profound or well wrapped up. Just to say hello and that you are watching, listening, reading, working at it, gives a wonderful feeling. I wish more would drop in to say a simple hello. We are a world of strangers awaiting permission.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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