Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Osama bin Laden and the Wages of War


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Mon, 02 May 2011 #1
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Always among us in one form or another: metamorphic terror, hatred, self-aggrandizment, arrogance, destruction. One man's world-view and intentions to change it, is another man's nightmare. If "you are the world", then you, too, are Osama bin Laden.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Mon, 02 May 2011 #2
Thumb_deleted_user_med Tihit Kumarz India 63 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

We are the world. This is special view of the world. This view is constructing fast, with the advent of TV, Radio, Telegram,ph(dit dit dit dot dit dit dot) we are in a well networked planet.

However I believe this is schocking because a seemingly innoccent soul headed the Al-qaida outfit. The entire script of how it could have happenned is obviously unknown to most of us. Bin Laden, R.I.P.

Psychological tortre techniques are on. It has entered art form too. Artworks, murals, big sculptural pieces immortalizing the truth of terrorism. If it is immortalized people will not forget the brutality of Man and God.

They are absolutely empty handed empty mouthed. Clothing is another name for respect here.. and thousands of innocent muslims do exist.

Sacred, Profound

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Mon, 02 May 2011 #3
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
If "you are the world", then you, too, are Osama bin Laden.

This is right. Fear, violence, sorrow and suffering are ourlot. No one can escape from these emotions and their consequences, yet we are not totally helpless in the matter.

We can change our world, not by criticising or justifying the state of affairs in the outer world, but by understanding/looking at our inner world. If by understanding my inner world I could end my fears, violence, sorrow, hate etc. then I would find my world changed. The actual disturbing state of affairs may not change but atleast one person would not be contributing in their happenings. We may one day see appreciable changes in the outer world also as one plus one is sometimes not two but eleven.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 02 May 2011 #4
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Tihit Kumar1 wrote:
They are absolutely empty handed empty mouthed. Clothing is another name for respect here.. and thousands of innocent muslims do exist.

What are you trying to say here, Tihit?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 02 May 2011 #5
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
If "you are the world", then you, too, are Osama bin Laden.

Then, at least at that level, stop being the world. Be yourself.

When the conditioning is ended, are you the world? As an individual you must be in the world, you cannot escape from it. But are you still of it?

It means, Does the world work through you or do you work through the world? Is your every action, that of the world acting through you or are you an authentic actor, the author of your own script adding nothing whatsoever to the chaos in which you find yourself? And if you are that, then you will be a tremendous influence for good.

It is a matter of understanding where the true seat of our actions lie. As long as we have conditioned minds the true seat of action lies outside of ourselves, we do not act, 'it' acts through us. We are operated inside-out.

If I am out of that confusion, I am not that.

And the answer comes back to oneself, as ever, in discovering the art of finding out who one truly is. And the start of that is to see the utter futility of lying, whether to oneself or to others. Only then is there a true basis from which to begin enquiry.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Mon, 02 May 2011.

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Mon, 02 May 2011 #6
Thumb_deleted_user_med Tihit Kumarz India 63 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Tihit Kumar1 wrote:
They are absolutely empty handed empty mouthed. Clothing is another name for respect here.. and thousands of innocent muslims do exist.
What are you trying to say here, Tihit?
FLOW WITH LIFE!

A popular muslim political leader was stabbed abd shot here in this town. He was the inspiration and energy thousands of muslims living in this city. Most of them are innocent. However leaders act impulsively and stab.

Sacred, Profound

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Mon, 02 May 2011 #7
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I take your point, Tihit, although I do not feel that the words 'innocence' and 'guilt' get to the heart of the matter. They are emotionally laden (if you will excuse the use of that word).

Who are the guilty and who are the innocent?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Mon, 02 May 2011.

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Tue, 03 May 2011 #8
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
Always among us in one form or another:

Osama shares May 1 death with Hitler
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Wed, 04 May 2011 #9
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

What was the light in his eyes all about? Lunacy? Or prayer five times a day? Did Osama really mastermind 9-11, or was he the "patsy"?

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Wed, 04 May 2011 #10
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arthur Landon wrote:
Did Osama really mastermind 9-11, or was he the "patsy"?

He was the founder, financier and figurehead of a terrorist network.

Look, the world around us is disintegrating. We drift into cycles of violence and counter-violence, which is also violence. There are no separate causes and effects. The cause is in the effect and visa-versa. It is a seamless feedback loop. We are all either high or low level feeders of that loop unless and until we can step right out of it. So it really does not matter who masterminded what or who is a patsy, who are the evil-doers and who the new-crusaders. It is one movement with its own rhythms, troughs and crescendos. There is no 'war on terror.' There is just unending war, fed by slogans.

The world around us is in a state of chronic disintegration. What is our response to that?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #11
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
What is our response to that?

With the bow let us win cows, with the bow let us win the contest and violent battles with the bow. The bow ruins the enemy's ( internal) pleasure; with the bow let us conquer all the corners of the world.
gb

bow may signify oneness.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #12
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
bow may signify oneness.

One form of the bow is the rainbow, Ganesan, which had a great significance in the Hebrew holy book. After the great flood in which only the family of Noah and a selection of every animal survived, God put the rainbow into the sky as a covenant that He would never again send such a deluge to eradicate mankind.

Now, it has also been said that the story of Noah and the great flood was not about a literal flood but about the dissintegration of a civilisation, a flood of barbarism, of destructive ignorance in which all traces of the previous civilisation were lost except for those truths protected in the ark, presumably a secret or esoteric tradition that carried the knowledge forward until such a time as it could be released into the world again.

Today we are facing such a time, as when we witness the desolate forces of destruction getting ever stronger. The ark we need is in ourselves, the teaching is one of self-knowledge and separation from the plague of hysteria into which this whole society, mistakenly called an international community, is steadily drifting.

It needs a radical separation such as that taught in the story of the ark, whereas the tendency is for caring people to try to merge with the crisis in the attempt to stop restrain or change it by increasing their activities in reform or revolt.

As K said, to reform the crisis is to perpetuate it, whereas we need to build a new society, not repair the old dying one. As Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead, and follow me.

Many feel shame with regard to what their government is or is not doing but this only shows a continued identification with that country, another form of liberal nationalism. Especially among American liberals this was true under Bush, and as they are finding that not much has changed under Obama there is a great feeling of desolation. This is what I have observed.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 05 May 2011.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #13
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1921 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
If "you are the world", then you, too, are Osama bin Laden.

Yes - it seems we assassinate the enemy, not realizing he is ourself, and then we all cheer about it. What a horror that is! Believing we have destroyed evil by murdering one (unarmed) man?

Beware the human propaganda - it always reeks.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #14
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1921 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Then, at least at that level, stop being the world. Be yourself.

But the fact is - we ARE the world. And to not face that fact is to try to find yet another - comfortable - way to become.

What is 'be yourself' anyway? Inventing a 'better' self perhaps? More becoming.
Anything rather than really face the human fact.

The recent self-righteous actions by 'our' side only show ever more clearly the desperate depth of human disorder. Stay with that fact - if you can. There is nothing to justify.

When an unarmed man (whoever he is) is shot, and it is called 'justice', you have a pretty clear indication of how low the human condition has sunk - of how senile the human brain really is.

And 'we are the world'. No 'you and me' - no 'them and us' - WE are the world. There are no sides in war. There are no 'great individuals' being 'themselves'. Human beings have it ALL wrong. Everything.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #15
Thumb_deleted_user_med Mohad Dib Ireland 36 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

All is true, TV and governments never lie ....
Santa is real, so is after life in heaven....and so on!
My last son had some "real" fairy dust from a real fairy , on his chair at school...
he told me teacher said ....bla bla bla
he is happy with it...
sometimes i see the all world as a classroom where we are all between 6 and 7 years old at the most....

now little native Indian story:
an Indian Sioux from the lakota tribe , was wandering somewhere in the forest, the young one saw a deadly snake ,and took his knife to kill the snake...
the father and the son stayed silent for a while ,the father on the way back to the teepee said to the son : did you realized that you tried to kill your fear ?

Dan.

ps: hello Patricia, how are things ?
thanks for the last post !!

If kinfonet don't get rid of trolls ,willing to destroy , I will leave very soon...K mention the need to act too.

This post was last updated by Mohad Dib (account deleted) Thu, 05 May 2011.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #16
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1921 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Dan - yes. Did humanity kill its fear? Funny - it is still there. Intensified!

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 05 May 2011.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med Mohad Dib Ireland 36 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Hello Dan - yes. Did humanity kill its fear? Funny - it is still there. Intensified

yes it is still there...at its best which means the worse.
At the same time so predictable.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
What is 'be yourself' anyway? Inventing a 'better' self perhaps? More becoming. Anything rather than really face the human fact.

well , i find that so true...especially the " anything rather than really face the human fact"

a good start !

Dan.

If kinfonet don't get rid of trolls ,willing to destroy , I will leave very soon...K mention the need to act too.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #18
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1921 posts in this forum Offline

The somewhat apt quote of the day:

K: "most of you who are religiously inclined, are in search of truth, and that very search indicates that you are escaping from the conflict of the present"

Right on cue K.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #19
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
What is 'be yourself' anyway? Inventing a 'better' self perhaps? More becoming. Anything rather than really face the human fact.

It is a strange response you have given, Patricia. How can being what one is be equated with striving to become something different? Obviously I was implying no such thing.

Clearly we need a revolution and it must begin with us, and therefore with me. So I must understand what I actually am. Society is in a downward spiral. Surely I must separate myself from that movement. And I cannot do this by trying to be anything different than I am because that would still be an action of the 'I.'

If I set out to change myself I will remain the same. If I set out to understand myself, the understanding itself will be the very change needed. To move out of confusion is the revolution that seperates one from the flow of confusion.

This revolution begins only if and when one realises the necessity of absolute honesty with oneself and in one's life. Then that has to be a factor in how one conducts one's life. It means withdrawing from any and every unnecessary activity where to gain one's needs one has to lie, manipulate, influence or posture. This obviously rules out the legal profession, army, police, business and politics, for example.

To be impeccable is not to adopt a stringent moral code based upon an ideal but to maintain a tremendous alertness into the implications of all one's actions, thoughts and desires, moment by moment and to act intelligently from that alert state. That is the revolution and it is a 180 degree turn from what you have called becoming.

If one really faces the human fact of violence, fully, then to turn away from that is not an act of becoming but an act of intelligence. Then you are not 'the world' in the sense that it was first put in this thread. First see the truth of violence. Then see if that does not change you. And if you have not changed you have not seen the root of it and the effect of it, you have merely intellectualised.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 05 May 2011.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #20
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
It is a strange response you have given, Patricia.

I did notice it.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #21
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1921 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
It is a strange response you have given, Patricia.

Well Paul - to understand it you may have to move beyond the satisfaction of 'being yourself'. :)

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #22
Thumb_deleted_user_med Yvonne Bokobza Netherlands 23 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
To be impeccable is.......................to maintain a tremendous alertness into the implications of all one's actions, thoughts and desires, moment by moment and to act intelligently from that alert state.

Reward and punishment, therefore..... Becoming :)
Impeccable you say? no way, sorry!

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #23
Thumb_deleted_user_med Yvonne Bokobza Netherlands 23 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
To be impeccable is not to adopt a stringent moral code based upon an ideal but to maintain a tremendous alertness into the implications of all one's actions, thoughts and desires, moment by moment and to act intelligently from that alert state.

Again I quote as above :

Means : In order to be bla,bla, bla, you have to do bla,bla,bla. It is a cause and effect action, therefore reward, Can you see that ?

You're being so bloody minded urgh...

If you can't see it, never mind. do not feel to justify. it is clear to anyone :)

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #24
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I am saying do not adopt a moral code to become anything. See yourself as you actually are, be alert from moment to moment and act from intelligence.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 06 May 2011.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #25
Thumb_flower_4 Ana Flavia Lucas Brazil 28 posts in this forum Offline

Yvonne Bokobza wrote:
it is clear to anyone :)

Not to me. It is not clear to me any rewarding in that phrase and it is also not clear why all this confrontation, which does not seems to make anything clearer...just creates more conflict, in my way of looking at it.

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #26
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
I did notice it. gb

Thank you Ganesan. Even when the cobra rises to full height its belly is still on the ground.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 05 May 2011 #27
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ana Flavia Lucas wrote:
...just creates more conflict, in my way of looking at it.

This is true, Ana. There is quite a difference between real criticism and vitriol opposition. In criticism one tries to point out a weakness and offer a stronger argument. It is a positive, supportive step. Whereas in opposition one undercuts and trashes a supposed opponent and thereby undercuts and trashes oneself. It is something wholly negative.

It is better to try to bring something new to the table.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 05 May 2011.

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Fri, 06 May 2011 #28
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1921 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Clearly Ruth is not Bin Laden. Are you Bin Laden, Patricia? Do you truly feel yourself to be Bin Laden? Is that who you really are? Is that what you feel in your blood, that you are Bin Laden? When you stop posturing and making slogans and actually look at yourself, deeply, is that who you really are? Are you being truthful, you see yourself that way, as Bin Laden?

There is one human brain on the planet, but this fact will never be seen while one values ones own 'individuality' by seeking to 'be oneself'. Without understanding the fact of one human brain, there is no action.

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Fri, 06 May 2011 #29
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1921 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I never talked of 'becoming' and I never mentioned 'satisfaction.

You do not have to talk of them for it to be clearly evident that these motives are acting in what you say.

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Fri, 06 May 2011 #30
Thumb_deleted_user_med Yvonne Bokobza Netherlands 23 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
but be alert from moment to moment and act from intelligence.

I am asking you, why do you see vitriol, invective and acrimony each time someone says something ...... ?(well I'll let you complete the blanks). These are emotions and merely reactions of like or dislike.

At this moment while reading this post, are you alert? is it a moment of alertness, or do you invite alertness episodically?

Look Paul, I do not know you, but I would like to share with you this part of K's last talks in Madras january 86. If you can read it with all "the alertness" you can gather :) lol.

"That's merely a process of achievement. Right? You have been one day not able to concentrate; you take a month and say: yes, I've got it. That's like a clerk becoming a manager. Right? So is there a different kind of meditation which is not effort, which is not measurement, which is not routine - please pay attention to what I am saying - which is not mechanical? Is there a meditation in which there is no sense of comparison, or there is no reward and punishment? You understand what I am saying? So, is there any meditation which is not based on thought which is measurement, time, and all that? You understand my question? How can one explain a meditation that has no measurement, that has no achievement, that doesn't say: I'll be that; I am this, but I'll become that? That being god or super-angel.
So, that requires, if I may point out, not for you to accept or deny, just pointing out, is there a meditation which has nothing to do with will, with an energy that says: I must meditate - which has nothing to do with effort at all? The speaker says there is. You don't have to accept it. He may be nuts. He may be talking nonsense, but he sees logically that the ordinary meditation is self-hypnosis, deceiving oneself and when you stop deceiving, stop all that mechanical process, is there a different kind of meditation. And unfortunately, the speaker says: yes. That is not for you to say: yes, I agree, I'll meditate. You can't get at it through effort, through giving all your energy to something. You can't, there is no - you understand? It is something that has to be absolutely silent. Don't achieve silence now
"

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