Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Verbal Awareness


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Tue, 26 Apr 2011 #1
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Today I was looking at this question of the conscious and the unconscious and I noticed that mostly what I am aware of is that which is being verbalised, which I am here calling the verbal awareness.

Thought must begin in a pre-verbal form. I am wondering whether what we call the unconscious is the non-verbalised and the pre-verbalised form of thought, which must be feeling states, images, sensory memory and so on.

It would seem that memory is primarily founded upon that which has been taken in and stored from the senses, smell, touch, hearing, sight and taste. On top of that is that which has been verbalised and stored as verbal memory. Obviously these are all related in terms of memories of experiences. After all, they are experienced simultaneously.

However, it appeared to me that the verbal awareness does not see the connectivity between itself, sensory memory and associated stored feeling states. The verbal awareness of the conscious mind has become separated and sees itself as an independent actor, the thinker as K calls it.

And from this position the thinker is also the censor, somehow filtering what gets verbalised and therefore what we are made aware of, and what not.

I have been thinking/feeling my way into this and I feel I have a long way to go before it makes sense. K skirts the issues I am looking at here, now, and I see I have to go on my own into it. But I would appreciate some collaboration, if anyone is interested in the subject and has some insights.

We are looking in the round at the relationship between verbalisation and awareness.

All input appreciated. Thanks

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Tue, 26 Apr 2011.

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Wed, 27 Apr 2011 #2
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I have been thinking/feeling my way into this and I feel I have a long way to go before it makes sense.

Speech:I am the one who blows like the wind, embracing all creatures. Beyound the sky, beyond this earth, so much have I become in my greatness.

Speech was divided into four parts that the inspired priests know. Three parts, hidden in deep secret, humans do not stir in to action; the fourth part of Speech is what men speak.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 27 Apr 2011.

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Wed, 27 Apr 2011 #3
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Speech was divided into four parts that the inspired priests know. Three parts, hidden in deep secret, humans do not stir in to action; the fourth part of Speech is what men speak.

Yes, Ganesan. I see that. I think it is saying that three-quarters of man's speach is hidden, known only to himself. Only one quarter goes out through the mouth and is made known to others. Is that right?

But that which is verbalised internally, the inward talking, the chattering mind, is all conscious. One is aware of the chatter, both the internal and the external. What then is the unconcious?

I had never given this much attention. I have unknowingly pictured the unconscious as also being full of chatter, albeit suppressed or unrecognised - the chatter which is outside one's awareness. I had an unconsidered prejudice about it that the unconscious part was also mostly verbal. But now I realise that I have no knowledge of that. Indeed it seems to me that the very act of something coming up from the unconscious IS its verbalisation.

So, I am asking myself, why have I kept my awareness, almost exclusively, at the level of verbalisation, and why can I not extend it downwards to the pre-verbal and non-verbal levels?

In analysis the emphasis is on allowing the non-verbal to become verbalised, then analysis precedes on the verbal level.

I want to know whether it can be don e better the other way round. Rather than the unconscious coming into awareness through verbalisation, can awareness approach the unconscious non-verbally, which would be direct contact, unmediated by language? Because verbalisation itself has become a process of containment and cannot result in true knowledge.

I wonder if anyone else is seeing this?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 27 Apr 2011 #4
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Because verbalisation itself has become a process of containment and cannot result in true knowledge.

the yellow birds clothed in waters fly up to the dark path. They have now returned from the home of the Order, and at once the earth was drenched with butter.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Wed, 27 Apr 2011 #5
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Thought must begin in a pre-verbal form. I am wondering whether what we call the unconscious is the non-verbalised and the pre-verbalised form of thought, which must be feeling states, images, sensory memory and so on.

Dear Paul,

you have raised some very important and interesting points in this thread. Here is another way to look at unconscious.

Mind has to be alert to stay with silence or emptiness. The verbal thought production is its way to relax from time to time. All the thoughts come from memory. According to the self concern or interest, the current thoughts arise. In memory at deeper level other thoughts are lying dormant and will come up if prompted by the circumstances or when one puts an effort to remember. These are said to belong to the unconscious but I feel all thoughts without exception are conscious thoughts. What you are calling as pre and non verbalised state of thoght storage is nothing. There is either state of silence or activity of verbalised form of thoughts.

THere is another point I want to discuss. Feelings are produced by actual events. It is difficult to store laughter or anger in memory. So, I do not feel the feeling states are stored. Under the influence of relevant thought, the feelings (emotions) are produced fresh every time as they are produced by events and circumtances.Same can be said about sensory memory. taste of a fruit can not be stored except as a very pale image which helps in recognition of the specific taste later on.

This is new direction of enquiry and further discussion will bring clarity. So, let us move ahead with patience and open mind. Thanks again for a good post.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Wed, 27 Apr 2011 #6
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I want to know whether it can be don e better the other way round. Rather than the unconscious coming into awareness through verbalisation, can awareness approach the unconscious non-verbally, which would be direct contact, unmediated by language?

Paul, as I said in my above post, if awareness goes deeper than conscious thoughts and images level, it will find nothing or emptiness or silence. For the light of awareness, the darkness of unconscious does not exist.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Wed, 27 Apr 2011 #7
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What you are calling as pre and non verbalised state of thoght storage is nothing. There is either state of silence or activity of verbalised form of thoughts.

Yes, Sudhir, this is precisely what I am questioning. You are simply affirming the very thing I am doubting, if you don't mind me pointing this out.

You say either it is verbal or it is nothing. I am questioning just that.

Sudhir, maybe it is my unique experience but this is what I observe in myself. Moods, urges, feelings often arise without words. The verbal expression or explanation comes afterwards. There is a movement towards verbal expression.

For example today the feeling of boredom arose. It was a sort of frustrated energy. I immediately began to question and to name it. And I found myself asking questions such as, "What am I doing in this place?" Then there was an impulse to act on that by producing thoughts that would 'solve' the problem that had been named. Imagination started to play its role as I considered everywhere else I would rather be.

Then I stopped it. I saw that I was being carried along by a wave.

I went back to the first verbalisation, "I'm bored" and I questioned whether or not I was bored. I saw that this naming of boredom was itself an escape from the feeling that had arisen. So I tried to get back to the original feeling and experience it again without naming it.

I won't go into what I found beneath that feeling as it was a bit complex amd too personal. Also I want to stay with those various movements without making conclusions. I will revisit it, more deeply as I go along. I won't comment now. But this is what I do want to say, Sudhir. The naming of boredom was done in haste and under pressure to resolve the underlying feelings. It had the effect of taking my attention from the feeling state and into a forward moving process of naming and resolving.

To go into my feelings I had to let go of that forward momentum of thought which was stealing my awareness and taking it away. And I realised more than ever that awareness is more than the verbal awareness but that I have been neglecting the other part.

I want to spend much more time at this as I feel I am getting somewhere. I ask others to join me and really question their assumptions about all this by experimenting with it. It seems the hardest thing to make that turn.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 27 Apr 2011 #8
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
if awareness goes deeper than conscious thoughts and images level, it will find nothing or emptiness or silence.

Then your conscious thought must arise from that silence, Sudhir. Surely that cannot be so. Are you conscious of the totality of your thought, of its arising and of its many transformations? There is much you are not aware of, Sudhir. Stay with that. Ask, 'Am I aware of all of that?'

For me, I can go a little deeper than most. I can see movement beneath the surface levels but then, a new surface is created and there is always that which is again, below. I want to go deeper, Sudhir. I do not know what is down there. That cannot be right.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #9
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
And I realised more than ever that awareness is more than the verbal awareness but that I have been neglecting the other part.

The three long haired ones reveal themselves at the right moment. During the year, one looks upon every thing with his powers; of one them onrush is invisible, but the form is not.

The quarters of the sky live on the oceans that flow over in all directions. The whole universe exists through the undying syllable that flows from her.
gb

Fire shaves the earth; the sun watches; the wind path is percieved, but the wind itself is invisible.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #10
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ganesan, what is your purpose in writing such things? You see, besides telling me that lovely Ganesan is with us I don't get much else. It does not touch me, which may be my lack of something. And I wonder why you are writing. Where is it coming from - the motive force that is, not the quotation. What is Ganesan truly saying?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #11
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
All input appreciated. Thanks

Just my input which not only describes your query, but also telling the answers abstractly and allegorically which i felt you can see more clearly. i love this topic one thing for sure.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Thu, 28 Apr 2011.

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #12
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Just before I go to sleep at night, just as the controller steps down his seat of power for one more day, something strange happens in consciousness. There is a release of many unrelated and, I feel, unrelatable elements, fragments.

There are bunches of isolated words and phrases, visual images, tunes and many intimations coming back and forth. Because I do not maintain a focus on any one, because I do not try to find the meanings or to follow them, they are simply there as an unlikely parade of random life-bits, an indifferent babble of superfilia. I write 'indifferent' because as I am to them, they are to me. The controller is not and 'while the cat's away the mice play.'

They clearly arise from the sub-conscious meanderings of mind. The smorgasbord was not ordered (in both senses of the word). Some of it is verbal, other not so. It is the fine matter that dreams are made of, it seems to me. What are the impulses behind it, that express themselves through it? There must be an active force.

I have some ideas about it but I would like to hear what others say as I know it is not a unique experience. And it is a point in the day where one can be aware of the underground production of the sub-conscious layers of mind, an area for exploring this question of the verbal awareness and its non-verbal and unconscious counterpart.

It is all one movement but something, awareness, is not one with it. And I am asking why awareness is predominantly verbal, confined to the area of thought which has expressed itself as words. Why are we not equally aware of the other?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #13
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Why are we not equally aware of the other?

We are aware of it actually, and they are in the stage of perception , intuition and cognition and that to be put verbally is possible only allegorically. this is my opinion.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #14
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
We are aware of it actually, and they are in the stage of perception , intuition and cognition and that to be put verbally is possible only allegorically. this is my opinion. gb

My life is like a TV screen, Ganesan. I turn it on every morning and see the pictures progress but I am not aware of the production process behind it. Sometimes I see that this or that person is an actor, trying to play an assigned role, but mostly I am caught in daily life, in the drama at the screen level.

You say that one is aware of all of it but that perception can only be verbalised through allegory. Perhaps you are answering my other question as to why you input the site as you do with allegorical prose. That is fine and I respect that. It is what I thought. But usually I do not catch hold of your underlying meanings . . . as K said, "It's like trying to catch the wind."

This allegorical perception is not enough, Ganesan. The poetic expression does not alter the incorrect functioning of my mind, the gap between what is written in allegory and what is acted out in blood and gut is insurmountable, verbally.

The centre of my awareness is still in the verbal. I am seeing that and being surprised at the tremendous limitation this implies. Unless and until it is otherwise, total awareness, I am trapped in this confused operation.

Is revolution, too, to be a mere allegorical expression? Is it enough?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 28 Apr 2011.

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #15
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Unless and until it is otherwise, total awareness, I am trapped in this confused operation.

I call to the cow who is easy to milk, so that the milker with clever hands may milk her. Let Savitri (total awareness) inspire us with the finest vigour. The pot of milk is set on the fire- this what I would happily proclaim.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #16
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
It is all one movement but something, awareness, is not one with it. And I am asking why awareness is predominantly verbal, confined to the area of thought which has expressed itself as words.

The two constantly move in opposite directions; when people percieve the one, they do not percieve the other.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #17
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
The two constantly move in opposite directions; when people percieve the one, they do not percieve the other.

You are saying that the conscious and the unconscious oppose each other. When you look inside yourself, Ganesan, how is this evidenced? Or, if you are saying they cannot perceive each other, how can you then know it? Let us be logical as well as inspired, Ganesan.

And also, you have introduced a new category, 'people.' Who is the person perceiving either the conscious or the unconscious, who is the person separate from the object?

As the moon always shows the same face to the earth, so man always is aware only of one face of himself, only one part of the surface of himself is lit up. And we are questioning why this is so and if it may end.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 28 Apr 2011.

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #18
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Moods, urges, feelings often arise without words.

Dear Paul, What difference does it make if words come before or after the moods, urges and feelings? Important point is whether one is aware or not when they arise.

Paul Davidson wrote:
Then I stopped it. I saw that I was being carried along by a wave.

Can one stop this wave by another thought? The role of paying attention to this thought wave is again highlighted here

Paul Davidson wrote:
So I tried to get back to the original feeling and experience it again without naming it.

Will trying be right or one should wait patiently with passive awareness? If you 'try', then you will certainly find something. Our mind is very good in serving 'wanted/desired' illusions!

Paul Davidson wrote:
I won't go into what I found beneath that feeling as it was a bit complex amd too personal.

Whatever you found must have been in memory. The mind can modify it but the basic 'finding' must come from memory, isn't this so?

Paul Davidson wrote:
To go into my feelings I had to let go of that forward momentum of thought which was stealing my awareness and taking it away. And I realised more than ever that awareness is more than the verbal awareness but that I have been neglecting the other part.

Going back to original feeling is wrong, Paul. That would be effort. The forward movement of awareness can not be abandoned.Stay aware and thoughts will slow down as they are the content of movement and not the movement. The awareness is indivisible awareness, it always illuminates whatever is in front of it.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #19
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Then your conscious thought must arise from that silence, Sudhir.

Paul, if I see a bird flying in the clear sky, has it necessarily come from the sky? Thoughts come from memory. They float past this silence, obscuring it temporarily. The silence is eternally there when this movement of thought stops.

Paul Davidson wrote:
For me, I can go a little deeper than most.

I know it, dear friend. Your posts show deep understanding of the workings of the human mind.

Paul Davidson wrote:
I can see movement beneath the surface levels but then, a new surface is created and there is always that which is again, below. I want to go deeper, Sudhir. I do not know what is down there.

Paul, you will have to let go of this 'want' or else mind will play tricks and continue to give you new surfaces, one below another. It won't be new as the pattern of 'demand and supply' will be same. What is new and alive is not in the field of 'want'. When it is there, 'you' will know it for sure. Abandoning the self is not a matter of research but of simple understanding where 'seeing is the doing'and nothing else need to be done.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #20
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Dear Paul, What difference does it make if words come before or after the moods, urges and feelings? Important point is whether one is aware or not when they arise.

Dear Sudhir, you had said that there was nothing beneath the conscious layer of thought. And I was saying that beneath the verbal level, which is the usual awareness, was finding a hidden layer of thought that is pre-verbal or non-verbal. I did not give importance to the sequence. I was describing the movement as a whole, as I experienced it in actuality. It is actuality that is importance Sudhir, not the giving of importance to the sequence, whether it may or may not be a sequence.

But as you have brought it up and asked the question, should we take the question only rhetorically or should we go into it?

And I think that unless there is an agreement to investigate the unconscious levels of thought we will get into a muddle. There must be a common ground for enquiry. I am wanting to be aware of the hidden movement, Sudhir, while you seem to be saying, "Let it rest."

If there is no common ground there will be no enquiry.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #21
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Can one stop this wave by another thought? The role of paying attention to this thought wave is again highlighted here

Surely one can, Sudhir. This is exactly what we do all day long. One thought comes in and trounces the other. Thought is a battleground. But I think it is clear that I am not advocating one thought replacing another in the way you have put it.

What I described above is something quite different. I wonder if you can catch it. I had found myself being carried along by a wave of imagination and that awareness itself was of such a quality that the wave was stopped. It means that awareness was operating at a deeper level than the level at which images were being constructed. It means that intelligence intervened and questioned what was foing on. It means that the automatic functioning of the upper layer of reactions was checked by a conscious action of concerned observation. That is quite another thing.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #22
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Will trying be right or one should wait patiently with passive awareness?

What does this mean to you, Sudhir, to "wait with passive awareness?"

One moment one is being carried away by the omage-making process and then, miraculously one is waiting with passive awareness. I think you have missed a few stages and it is precisely those stages that I was describing, that happened in a specific instance and was not generalising about. But you have offered a generalisation, Sudhir, and it only seems to tell me that I had done the wrong thing. I should have 'waited passively.' But . . . waited for what? It suggests an outcome or an expectation.

I realised that the movement of imagination was a response to the boredom, an escape. Then I questioned the thought which had stirred things. The thought had been, "I am bored. What am I doing here?"

Sudhir, you say I should have approached things through 'passive awareness.' What is this to you?

In passive awareness, is the passivity in 'waiting?' Or, is awareness 'passive' in the sense of it being choiceless? Passivity is not a virtue, Sudhir. Waiting is not a strategic game. But the moment thought comes in and makes choices, as between good and bad, right and wrong, then thought is an active force, constructing new images and awareness again is limited to that process of mentation.

K used 'passive awareness' as a synonym for 'choiceless awareness." But he always stressed that if there is not a questioning alert and vitally interested mind, then there will be nothing to be aware of.

It is by questioning, by enquiry into 'what is' however deep one can go, that awareness is extended inwardly, without any choice at all. Choice would be, "I will look at this but not at that. I will include this and exclude that." It is choice that must be passive in inner work, not awareness. I wonder if you are willing to consider that.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #23
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Whatever you found must have been in memory. The mind can modify it but the basic 'finding' must come from memory, isn't this so?

'Finding' does not come from memory, Sudhir. The act of finding must be fresh and new. Finding is the movement of awareness across its field of vision. Finding is the extension of that field into unknown areas. What is found, however, will undoubtedly be of memory in some form. Finding is an act that is new, unless one wants to play with words. (Because someone who has read a little Krishnamurti will say, "How can you find unless it is already known"). I am using your word, 'finding' and saying, one comes across a new factor, one discovers newly, one has an insight, one is looking, discovering and not choosing.

WE are, neither of us, talking of modifying memory, Sudhir, but of discovering how one's mind actually works, through concrete observations and without generalising or cutting the enquiry off with premature conclusions. Are you with me in that?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #24
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Going back to original feeling is wrong, Paul. That would be effort. The forward movement of awareness can not be abandoned

Please let us not be hasty about right and wrong ways Sudhir. You say that retracing a feeling implies effort but is it so? What do you mean by effort, Sudhir? It is force, isn't it? One thing against another. One effort to overcome another effort? Is that what I have been talking about?

I find that to retrace a thought or a feeling implies no effort at all. It needs relaxation, not effort. Do you know, Sudhir, when you are doing a yoga asana, you are not making an effort? It is the force of gravity working, isn't it. The gravity is being used and through it, the tension that is in the muscle or the ligament is revealed and can be relaxed.

I am thinking of the third position in soorya namaskaram (sun salutation) where one bends the body and drops the arms and palms to the floor while keeping the legs straight and knees locked back. There is no effort here. It is the relaxation of effort that is being achieved. This is with the body of course but it is essentially the same with the mind.

Similarly, one forms the intention of looking at the issue and then relaxes one's mind into it. It is not a strain. It is the progressive letting go of the strain. It is yoga of the mind, Sudhir, not a vigorous work-out with weights.

K advised people to write down every thought they had. He advised people to go through everything that had happened during the day, each night before sleeping. He advised people to recapitulate their entire lives. No effort was implied. It is yoga, not strife.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #25
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
The silence is eternally there when this movement of thought stops.

But the silence comes when there is tremendous attention, alert enquiry and choiceless awareness. Without this the mind continues to chatter. The only other way to silence the mind that I know is the way of compulsion.

You write of eternity of silence, Sudhir, but have you found it? Otherwise it is another creation of thought. It is too far from me to discuss the eternity of silence, Sudhir. I must start from what is near, which is the eternity of chatter. And I want to see what is behind it. Do you? I think you are saying you do not.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #26
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Paul, you will have to let go of this 'want' or else mind will play tricks and continue to give you new surfaces, one below another. It won't be new as the pattern of 'demand and supply' will be same. What is new and alive is not in the field of 'want'. When it is there, 'you' will know it for sure. Abandoning the self is not a matter of research but of simple understanding where 'seeing is the doing'and nothing else need to be done.

You say that 'want' will play tricks. I am not afraid of the tricks, Sudhir. If trick, then trick. But then we must look at the tricks. Turning one's head away will not stop the tricks and want continues in any case. It has tremendous momentum and considerable mass.

In mind turning itself around to examine its own becoming there has to be a vital interest in it doing so and of course it could be a sham, a hoax. But mind is all we have, Sudhir. We are that, inevitably so. Mind has to go to the very end of itself and for that, it has to be deadly serious. It will find every excuse not to do so, including all the reasons you have given above.

The point however is to continue to enquire and not be put off by doubt and fear. The alternative is death.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #27
Thumb_flower_4 Ana Flavia Lucas Brazil 28 posts in this forum Offline

To want is just a verb to describe for ourselves and communicate to others an urge (another name for a nameless feeling and body movement). In my experience, to be aware of the urge includes words in my mind - sometimes even explanations. But the explanations and words may trick me, and give me new urges... May we communicate and understand beyond (or beneath) the verbal, with our whole minds, even when we are writing words, as we are here? Are these words in the Forum important at all for our awareness??

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #28
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Ana,

"Are these words in the Forum important at all for our awareness??

It seems to me that they have importance when they quieten a mind so that awareness and understanding are then possible. The mind is made quiet when what is said adequately meets a question held in the mind of the listener.

max

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Thu, 28 Apr 2011 #29
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Ana,

"Are these words in the Forum important at all for our awareness??

It seems to me that they have importance when they quieten a mind so that awareness and understanding are then possible. The mind is made quiet when what is said adequately meets a question held in the mind of the listener.

max

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Fri, 29 Apr 2011 #30
Thumb_deleted_user_med Tihit Kumarz India 63 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The word is not the actual. You may want to express the actual as accurately as possible in the case of scientific or mathematical expressions.

However when we are interacting , communicating, participating, conversing, etc, you may or may not want to convey the right picture, the image. The purpose of verbal communication could also be to invoke a set of feelings, sensations, emotions, ideas, beliefs etc. We may also be describing an event.

Language barriers exist just as cultural barriers exist in the world we live in. US english is a form of british english. Lazy british, perhaps.

Now there is something called 'lost in translation'. That is, the translation failed to convey the sense.

Above and beyond all this, a word if repeated with reverence several times with same or similar sense several times it could be vibrant. ( A mantra, but the meaning, the sense of mantra is lost even here).

We have vibrants in the teaching, though most of us may know the origin.

A word can convey an image, a sense, a feeling, a story, a movie, or a spacial memory.

Sacred, Profound

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