Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Love and Transformation


Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 41 in total
Fri, 24 Dec 2010 #1
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

"The moment you have in your heart this extraordinary thing called love and feel the depth, the delight, the ecstasy of it, you will discover that for you the world is transformed."

Did K really say this? Can someone tell me in what context this statement was made? What does it mean?

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 24 Dec 2010 #2
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Ruth Marie -

If K said that, it was very early - either before he broke away from the theosophists, or pretty soon after. He eventually wised-up, and stopped making meaningless promises, such as "setting people free" and all that.

Unfortunately, the human condition is such as to be completely governed by reward and punishment, so many are only interested in promises of "bliss" - and then they go on to blame K because they are not "blissful".

In the later austere teaching, K takes no prisoners - makes no promises. Says it only as it is!

The early teaching is a trap and useless - unless one is understanding that K went through his own process of realization, and the early words he spoke are part of that process.

The teaching is at its own peak of truth at the end of his life. But too many who seek only "enlightenment by osmosis" will deny this vehemently.

Many of the K foundations quote almost exclusively from the early talks. Perhaps they are trying to 'tempt' followers! Or perhaps they are the only bits that those running the foundations really like and 'get'.

The teaching, and K actions throughout his life, make perfect sense when seen in the context of his long and full life journey. Which may be why he willingly allowed so much of his private life to be placed on public record - trusting that in all his years of public speaking holistically, once understood in context, there would be a clarity which gives a solid base for one's own genuine inquiry into human disorder.

For anyone interested and passionate enough to go there and find out, rather that just sitting in judgement upon their ill-informed image of the man himself, everything is on record, to be studied and understood. Cherry-picking of the bits of the teaching that fit one's desires and pre-conceptions will never work.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 24 Dec 2010 #3
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth,

I don't know where the quotation is but this is the type of thing K said.I am sure he would have said this.

He said you are the world.That is the world is the collective expression of the 'me' & the 'me' is not different from that of another.He also said till the 'I', that is the 'me' is ended there cannot be love.So this means with the ending of the 'me' love comes into being.

Now if the heart is full of love as in your quotation then that person has ended the self.So the 'me' the 'world' as it is is absent for that person would mean that the person is constructing the world from a wholly different undivided tranformed point of view.

Now Ruth I haven't this love.So this is just knowledge reading his books.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 24 Dec 2010 #4
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

It seems that when K realized that the worst thing you can provide for another human being is "hope", he ceased altogether to make proclamations such as the one quoted above.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 24 Dec 2010 #5
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
"The moment you have in your heart this extraordinary thing called love and feel the depth, the delight, the ecstasy of it, you will discover that for you the world is transformed."
Did K really say this? Can someone tell me in what context this statement was made? What does it mean?

It's a compelling statement regardless of who made it. "This extraordinary thing called love" is said to be the whole point of human existence, and it's so rarely seen or experienced as to be mythical. What human doesn't want transformation from a self-centered being to a selfless one?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Dec 2010 #6
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
What human doesn't want transformation from a self-centered being to a selfless one?

Exactly - it is based on desire. The desire of the 'self-centered being' to become a 'selfless one'. K was wise to all that eventually, and ceased to feed human desire.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Dec 2010 #7
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

I Googled the quote and it appears that K did say this. Patricia suggested that he said this during or shortly after his theosophy years, that he eventually ceased saying anything that may give people hope. Yet for years K continued to speak of love in a way that Nick referred to as "mythical". Throughout his life K stated that when self-centered activity begins, love ceases to be. Kapila has stated that the world is the collective expression of the self, and when the self is absent the world is constructed from a wholly different point of view, thus transformed. So when we see the condition of the world and even of our individual lives, most humans want transformation. Yes Patricia, desire arises from the self-centered person to be self-less if that's what is required to bring about change. K seemed to use the words transformation, revolution, and regeneration interchangeably. K continuously fed desire when he talked about those other ways of being in this world, about a world without divisive nationalism, religions, war, and personal conflicts. K instilled a sense of responsibility into the listener.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Dec 2010 #8
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 1570 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
Googled the quote and it appears that K did say this. Patricia suggested that he said this during or shortly after his theosophy years, that he eventually ceased saying anything that may give people hope. Yet for years K continued to speak of love in a way that Nick referred to as "mythical". Throughout his life K stated that when self-centered activity begins, love ceases to be. Kapila has stated that the world is the collective expression of the self, and when the self is absent the world is constructed from a wholly different point of view, thus transformed. So when we see the condition of the world and even of our individual lives, most humans want transformation. Yes Patricia, desire arises from the self-centered person to be self-less if that's what is required to bring about change. K seemed to use the words transformation, revolution, and regeneration interchangeably. K continuously fed desire when he talked about those other ways of being in this world, about a world without divisive nationalism, religions, war, and personal conflicts. K instilled a sense of responsibility into the listener.

Yes by talking about an existence outside of our own experience of what is real, K did open the possibility for another reality where things maybe different. If you notice he never says what love is, he points to what love is not....if one reads the teaching carefully, one comes to understand the subtlety he points out by asking questions like ' is man capable of change?"

Id there another way we can live that is free of conflict? He is pointing to an inquiry to discover if the possibility exist while always telling us to look at ourselves firs, at what is, not at what could be.

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Dec 2010 #9
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Eve Goodmon wrote:
If you notice he never says what love is, he points to what love is not...

Yes exactly. Negation. Not conversion! Not becoming!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Dec 2010 #10
Thumb_craig2 Craig Walker United States 5 posts in this forum Offline

The quotation was published in 1969. K made such statements throughout his life--not to offer hope, but to be factual and present a complete picture. Even a statement like "the ending of conflict" will become an object of desire for a mind seeking escape.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Dec 2010 #11
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you Craig for the published date on that quote. I agree, Patricia and Eve, that negation can bring about a better understanding of love as defined by K. He asked, "Is love desire? Is love energy, intelligence, the immeasurable?"

Science of the brain has a different definition for love: dopamine and norepinephrine, measured by the picograms (a trillionth of a gram). The world does seem to change under the influence of these neurotransmitters. So if a walk down memory lane opens the door of a heart that had long ago been shut and love comes into being, what's the harm? Afterall, when love is, the self is not. If the beauty of a flower, the ocean, the mountains brings about love, why not give attention to these more frequently?

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ruth Bass Sat, 25 Dec 2010.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 26 Dec 2010 #12
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
negation can bring about a better understanding of love as defined by K. He asked, "Is love desire? Is love energy, intelligence, the immeasurable?"

Love is an irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired.
- Robert Frost

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 26 Dec 2010 #13
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

If that is love, Nick, then what was K talking about?

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 26 Dec 2010 #14
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
If that is love, Nick, then what was K talking about?

K was talking about the liberating realization that I am imagined; the personification of the will to be and become.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 26 Dec 2010 #15
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Marie - K made it quite clear that love does NOT have its root in hate - is not the opposite of hate. Neither is it desire.

Therefore what human beings regard as 'love' is nothing more than 'becoming' - moving from hate to 'love', and believing that the word is the thing.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 26 Dec 2010 #16
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
K continuously fed desire when he talked about those other ways of being in this world, about a world without divisive nationalism, religions, war, and personal conflicts.

It was not really feeding desire. It was facing the fact of the disorder as it operates NOW. But I agree - he did, mainly early on, set up an opposite - an ideal for humanity to strive towards. I think he eventually saw the error of that, which is why the teaching in the final years is so austere.

What K took on was huge, and there were traps for him in the manner he expressed things. Which is why it is so important to approach the teaching holistically.

Keep questioning Ruth Marie. :)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 28 Dec 2010 #17
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
K continuously fed desire when he talked about those other ways of being in this world,

Ruth,

K was talking to people about suffering,about our predicament,about the state of the world.So naturally he had to tell that there is a resolution.Otherwise he couldn't have addressed the people.On what ground was he on stage then?But he always told us to look at 'what is',be with 'what is',not to escape 'what is',not to pursue 'what should be' which he said was unreal.So he pointed out clearly what is involved in pursuing an ideal,isn't it?.So it is we who have made what he said into desire escaping again from ourselves into fantasy, isn't it?-as we do with all the other things.So its really not K's doing isn't it?

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 28 Dec 2010 #18
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Often we can become very angry when pursuing an ideal, judging others or giving thought to "what should be". Anger is not love, it's an inflated sense of self. It's compassion that helps us live in this world of inequality and suffering. That "extraordinary thing called love" that Krishnamurti referred to is compassion.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 29 Dec 2010 #19
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
That "extraordinary thing called love" that Krishnamurti referred to is compassion.

Ah! Arther,How do we come upon that? That's the big issue.When something happens to a person close to us we feel,we suffer.But when the same thing happens to an unknown person we are unaffected.We just pass by.So there is a division obviously-as my loved ones & others.Division means there is fear,conflict,animosity & so on.So in that state there cannot be love.Obviously.So this means knowledge of the past which is creating this barrier must be fully overhauled for this love to come into being-isn't it? At least it looks that.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 29 Dec 2010 #20
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
So this means knowledge of the past which is creating this barrier must be fully overhauled for this love to come into being-isn't it?

Kapila, by doing anything with the knowledge of the past, can one be in that state of love that has no division? If this is possible, then won't love become a result...a cause and effect phenomenon?

What exactly do you mean by overhauling the past knowledge?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Dec 2010 #21
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
by doing anything with the knowledge of the past, can one be in that state of love

If we do anything with the knowledge of the past then that very action is the functioning of the past.So deliberate action cannot apparently overhaul the past, I agree Dr.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What exactly do you mean by overhauling the past knowledge?

Past knowledge as image & so on.Dropping of this Dr.I understand deliberate action is counter productive in this regard.Understanding the full significance of knowledge is what is called for I think.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Dec 2010 #22
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
I understand deliberate action is counter productive in this regard.

Kapila, do you know of any other way of dropping of knowledge, image and so on? I feel there is always a desire (thought) first to be free of the past and then mind achieves some sort of blankness/emptiness. This is deliberate action. So, I will consider this an escape and not dropping. What do you say?

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Understanding the full significance of knowledge is what is called for I think.

As intellectual understanding is out, what else do you feel will bring this understanding?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 31 Dec 2010 #23
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
I feel there is always a desire (thought) first to be free of the past

Is it a question of looking? Can we at some point look at this desire? Can we see the implications of it?The expectation,the anxiety,the frustration it causes & so on.Does it not drop away then? Then can we wait with 'what is',look at 'what is'?

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
As intellectual understanding is out

Yes Dr. intellectual understanding is out.Then we are holding onto something & the attempt to live up to that causes conflict & fear.Back in the struggle then.So there is only looking at ourselves from moment to moment without carrying anything from one moment to the other & dropping is as one sees without any volition or decision to drop.Seeing is only what is needed I think.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 03 Jan 2011 #24
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
So there is only looking at ourselves from moment to moment without carrying anything from one moment to the other & dropping is as one sees without any volition or decision to drop.

Kapila, thankyou for this accurate reply.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Seeing is only what is needed I think.

Now starts the tricky part.:-)

Kapila, it is very natural for our mind to react to whatever is being seen in the moment. the net result of this activity is to corrupt the purity of observing/seeing. So, as you say the right answer is "seeing" but this is not easy to come by. One is simply not able to do it despite right intentions and willingness.And if 'seeing' is not coming through, then the first accurate part of your reply becomes wishful thinking only.

What will make it possible for the mind to jump from its natural "conflict and contradiction" existence to the "seeing" state? Please throw some light on the factors responsible for bringing about this transformation. - Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 04 Jan 2011 #25
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What will make it possible for the mind to jump from its natural "conflict and contradiction" existence to the "seeing" state?

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What will make it possible for the mind to jump from its natural "conflict and contradiction" existence to the "seeing" state?

It is still seeing. Is that not right Dr? If the mind is in conflict & contradiction then it cannot observe but it can see the implications of conflict,contradiction.Then the conflict will end & observing becomes possible.It is always what is taking place that we look at Dr, is that not right? That is if we are desirous then watch the desirous state & find out about it.It is something very beautiful Dr,isn't it?It actually takes place.If we see the mind in control, if we see the full implications then immediately the way a light goes out when the switch is turned off, it ends.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 04 Jan 2011 #26
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
If the mind is in conflict & contradiction then it cannot observe but it can see the implications of conflict,contradiction.

Are you sure that a mind that is already injured by conflicts and contradiction can "see" the implications of conflicts and contradiction, Kapila?

Or whatever it "sees" is intellectual and goes in to memory to becomes knowledge which is useless in ending conflict?

Does pain teach one to end conflicts in life or does it make one an expert in different ways of escaping?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 04 Jan 2011 #27
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Are you sure that a mind that is already injured by conflicts and contradiction can "see" the implications of conflicts and contradiction, Kapila? Or whatever it "sees" is intellectual and goes in to memory to becomes knowledge which is useless in ending conflict?

Can anyone really know anything about "seeing", as you put it? If "I", the knower, am not present when seeing is, who or what knows anything about it? Who or what is in any position to talk about it knowingly?

Seeing has nothing to say about seeing. It just sees, and knowing does all the talking.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Jan 2011 #28
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Are you sure that a mind that is already injured by conflicts and contradiction can "see" the implications of conflicts and contradiction, Kapila?

We become aware of conflict & contradiction when there is tension.Now if we ask what is causing tension & then look then we may see that thought opposing thought is causing tension & it must necessarily do so.If we see this then thought attempting to control thought ends.Yes Dr, I think this is possible.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Or whatever it "sees" is intellectual and goes in to memory to becomes knowledge which is useless in ending conflict?

If it is intellectual then it is simply not seeing but a conclusion reached by thinking.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Does pain teach one to end conflicts in life or does it make one an expert in different ways of escaping?

I think we begin to escape first & then if we realize the futility of escape, that it is merely moving from one place to another which is no change at all & then begin to inquire having seeing the meaninglessness of the human existence then this inquiry may teach us the nature of conflict Dr.

Do you see these questions differently Dr?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Jan 2011 #29
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
We become aware of conflict & contradiction when there is tension.Now if we ask what is causing tension & then look then we may see that thought opposing thought is causing tension & it must necessarily do so.

Kapila, we have looked at this point from various angles and it is understood that thought opposing thought is the cause of conflict.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
If we see this then thought attempting to control thought ends.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
I think we begin to escape first & then if we realize the futility of escape, that it is merely moving from one place to another which is no change at all

The above two quotes are pointing towards the solution. The words "see" and "realize" are significant. I would like to ask you this "what do these two words practically mean? What is actually happening when a person is "seeing" or "realizing"?

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
...then begin to inquire having seeing the meaninglessness of the human existence then this inquiry may teach us the nature of conflict

After "seeing" and "realizing", is there anything left to enquire with relation to the nature of conflict? What is the need for further enquiry? Where to is this enquiring taking one?

Please have patience to carry on this discusion as I feel we are moving in right direction. - Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 06 Jan 2011 #30
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What is actually happening when a person is "seeing" or "realizing"?

It is looking without any prejudice,without any past interference-thus without a division which is without an observer.It is a state of attention which is not looking for a solution,it is just looking at 'what is'.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
After "seeing" and "realizing", is there anything left to enquire with relation to the nature of conflict?

Dr, your post #26 has 3 questions. Here I have answered the 3rd afresh as a new question. That is first we escape from conflict which means we are not seeing the nature of conflict.Then we see the futility of escape. Then we don't escape but look at conflict.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Where to is this enquiring taking one?

I would say it is throwing light or clarity on the nature of consciousness-Regards.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 41 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)