Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Desire


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Mon, 08 Nov 2010 #1
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

If it wasn't for desire, where would we be? Are we better or worse off for it? Can we live without it? Can we find out if we can live without it? Does the desire to be free of desire bring freedom? Is freedom the end of desire? Do we desire to find out what freedom is? Is it possible to find out anything without desire, or does desire only draw one farther in? Do we desire the answers to these questions?

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Tue, 09 Nov 2010 #2
Thumb_avatar Emma T United States 22 posts in this forum Offline

I'd sure like to see here a slow, considered discussion on the topic of desire.

In the daily quotes from the last few days, K appears to be saying that desire - which he refers to as 'craving'- is the central core from which our skewed perception of reality derives.

If I may be personal, I never imagined what Truth was, I never craved to possess it. How can you want something when you do not know what it is?
But I knew the things which were binding me, crippling my thought, my emotions, wasting my energy. I knew that which it is quite easy to know. So, through the process of freeing myself from craving, the cause of many hindrances

He is obviously not advocating willful suppression. So then, what does he mean when he uses the word desire. Is it something rarefied, difficult to get to the root of, or is it as he says, "quite easy to know". And if it were possible to know, then what? Do we bang it over the head, one desire calling itself "awareness that desire is bad" clubbing another ? And as Rajiv says, wouldn't life be utterly vapid if there were no desire? Is not all action born of desire?

If I could express a desire: if you already have all the answers to these questions, or feel that you've already figured out what Krishnamurti is saying, please do not participate in this discussion. Thanks in advance.

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Tue, 09 Nov 2010 #3
Thumb_deleted_user_med old yogi Sweden 10 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Rajiv Fonn wrote:
I personally feel that a life without desire would be just totally boring and meaningless, but that may be what you are pointing to.

I agree with that, but conditionally. Given freedom rather than the control of my life that authority has made impossible to escape from for most of us, would life cease to be boring and meaningless? And then perhaps one would quite spontaneously be free of desire.

It's a nice question, isn't it? If being pushed into a situation that is not the one which produced the human animal, and then providing him or tempting him with all manner of distractions, is not desire itself?

Does the one providing the distractions desire our custom? Then he desires that there are new buildings full of people who can afford his stuff. He desires us to have babies, and the people farther from his place to have cars, and so on.

Are there amateur and professional desirers? Do gays desire more than straights do? Do we get rich because we are very expert at desire, or just very wrapped up in it? Would K have residual desire?

I have a considerable web-presence 100% related to our discussions.

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Tue, 09 Nov 2010 #4
Thumb_deleted_user_med old yogi Sweden 10 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Emma T wrote:
If I could express a desire: if you already have all the answers to these questions, or feel that you've already figured out what Krishnamurti is saying, please do not participate in this discussion. Thanks in advance.

So we are not here to inquire into desire, but to bow to yours?

I have a considerable web-presence 100% related to our discussions.

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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 #5
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Emma T wrote:
If I could express a desire: if you already have all the answers to these questions, or feel that you've already figured out what Krishnamurti is saying, please do not participate in this discussion. Thanks in advance.

I was going to say the same thing when I started this thread but I decided not to because it sounded smart-alecky. Thanks for putting it more nicely than I would have.

Yes, is it possible for us to go into this slowly and carefully? It seems to me that desire is what needs to be looked at, and whether one can be aware of desire as it is operating. My desire is to go into desire and to come out the other end, understanding, once and for all what desire is and whether it is necessary, or just something one must get past.

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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 #6
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Rajiv Fonn wrote:
I personally feel that a life without desire would be just totally boring and meaningless

Emma T wrote:
And as Rajiv says, wouldn't life be utterly vapid if there were no desire?

Do we know this? We know the state with desire.Without desire will it be what we think it will be or will the mind have a different quality?

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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 #7
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 1570 posts in this forum Offline

Emma what is desire? How do we know it is desire? I think somewhere K said desire is a repetitive pleasure....am I on the right track? Desire is something I want, but I can't help wonder if behind it is a fear that I will not get it or can't have it. If I am sure I will have all I need would I desire anything? What do you think?

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 #8
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 1570 posts in this forum Offline

Yes that makes sense I can only imagine a life without fear or desire...but it would only be a projection of desire, right? So not real. We can't imagine a life without desire because desire is what is...and any movement from what is can not be real?

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 #9
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Emma T wrote:
If I could express a desire: if you already have all the answers to these questions, or feel that you've already figured out what Krishnamurti is saying, please do not participate in this discussion. Thanks in advance.

Why? Isn't this a resistance? What are you guarding against? You may be able to help the enlightened person!I find if somebody says something nonsensical it still helps if we look at it.Because seeing it is nonsensical is seeing the fact.

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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 #10
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Eve Goodmon wrote:
If I am sure I will have all I need would I desire anything? What do you think?

This is superb! You may be right I think.Is it that we are discontented,inadequate & want fulfillment?

This post was last updated by Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Wed, 10 Nov 2010.

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Wed, 10 Nov 2010 #11
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
If it wasn't for desire, where would we be?
Certainly not where we are now.

nick carter wrote:
Are we better or worse off for it?
Both.

nick carter wrote:
Can we live without it?
No, survival is not possible.

nick carter wrote:
Can we find out if we can live without it?
Enquire.

nick carter wrote:
Does the desire to be free of desire bring freedom?
Two negatives don't make a positive here.

nick carter wrote:
Is freedom the end of desire?
No, freedom is the movement of understanding with respect to desire.

nick carter wrote:
Do we desire to find out what freedom is?
The journey to find out can not start without a desire to find out, can it ?

nick carter wrote:
Is it possible to find out anything without desire, or does desire only draw one farther in?
Well, Nick, my chance to ask you, " Can you rephrase this question in such a manner that it makes some sense ?":-)

nick carter wrote:
Do we desire the answers to these questions?
Did you ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Sudhir Sharma Wed, 10 Nov 2010.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #12
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

And there you have it, folks, answers from TheDoctor, our forum answering machine.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #13
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1925 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
And there you have it, folks, answers from TheDoctor, our forum answering machine.

Really? Sounds more like a lot of predictable questions asked by nick carter.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #14
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
And there you have it, folks, answers from TheDoctor, our forum answering machine.

Nick, don't beg for support !

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #15
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

When I was at university, as a mature student, I did a short course in philosophy and had to be led by the nose into the absurd discussions on what seemed to me to be metaphysical issues such as 'what is freedom?' There were endless lists of such questions and all had well established paths that one trecked along to reach the ever-predictable answers. And I feel that we do the same here when we abstract the questions (which are real) from everyday life.

We can analyse (anal-ise) desire to death, take it apart and see what made it tick (apols for the cliche) and move towards any number of definitions among the innumerable available. Everyone will have his or her favourite and we could fall into groups, dividing ourselves for and against. That is the pattern with the metaphysical approach of classical philosophy. K once said ' a student of philosophy is already dead.'

I would prefer to discuss the play of desire in our actual lives. It is only in the living movement that we can derive meaning, as today's quote suggests, "When you are studying something living, it is not a practice."

So, my question is, what were the desires that you met with today? How did you approach them, or did you escape? Did you stop and investigate them in the moment of your awareness or did the event simply fall into memory as an unexplained vestage of another wasted day?

For me, getting up this morning and having to face a day in the cold and the rain, finishing off tiling a roof, I truly desired to stay in bed, but I could see the movement of that desire was not strong. The desire to finish the job was stronger. It is this fracturing of intent which is the signiture of desire. It goes with choice. Have you noticed that there is no desire without choices? It evidences the facing of a partially understood challenge, the failure to find true meaning.

When, this morning, I finally understood the challenge I got out of bed daring to face the day, washed, dressed, breakfasted and then, ready to venture out into the cruel elements, full of this vitality of fresh understanding . . . I came in here and turned on the computer!

Oh, fickle humans!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 11 Nov 2010.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #16
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Judging from the responses so far, I've raised questions too serious for most to actually go into. Better to just fire off the usual answers or tedious windbaggery.

What we call the self, the me, "I", the ego, is obviously a product of desire. But if it's true - as TheDoctor and others contend - that we can't live without desire, then we can't live without the self.

So what is it that draws egos to K? The ego can't desire its own end because it is the demand for continuity, and it can't desire freedom because there's nothing to gain from it, nothing to have, nothing to make "mine". So all the self can get from K is false self-knowledge. The Krishnamurtian can pretend to know all about the self, have all the answers and the illusion of being free, and it's all an edifice built and maintained by desire. Krishnamurtians haven't a clue as to what they're actually doing because their K-certainty renders them incapable of even considering the possiblility that they might be clueless.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #17
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

nick carter wrote:
If it wasn't for Nick Carter, where would we be? Are we better or worse off for Nick Carter? Can we live without Nick Carter? Can we find out if we can live without Nick Carter? Does the desire to be free of Nick Carter bring freedom? Is freedom the end of Nick Carter? Do we desire Nick Carter to find out what freedom is? Is Nick Carter possible to find out anything without desire, or does Nick Carter only draw one farther in? Do we desire the Nick Carter answers to these questions?

I need to know! Please answer seriously so I can damn you all to hell.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #18
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Really? Sounds more like a lot of predictable questions asked by nick carter.

If only your pronouncements were as unpredictable as your pop-ups, Patricia.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #19
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
nick carter wrote:
If it wasn't for Nick Carter, where would we be? Are we better or worse off for Nick Carter? Can we live without Nick Carter? Can we find out if we can live without Nick Carter? Does the desire to be free of Nick Carter bring freedom? Is freedom the end of Nick Carter? Do we desire Nick Carter to find out what freedom is? Is Nick Carter possible to find out anything without desire, or does Nick Carter only draw one farther in? Do we desire the Nick Carter answers to these questions?
I need to know! Please answer seriously so I can damn you all to hell.

I'm sorry to break the news to you, Paul, but you're in Hell right now, along with the all the rest of us self-centered humans....your pathetic attempts to deny it and make it all warm and fuzzy, notwithstanding.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #20
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

nick carter wrote:
If only your pronouncements were as unpredictable as your pop-ups, Patricia.

I don't know, Nick. Seems to me she hasn't had a pop-up for some time.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #21
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

nick carter wrote:
I'm sorry to break the news to you, Paul, but you're in Hell right now

Oh, well no wonder it's so cold.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #22
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
nick carter wrote:
And there you have it, folks, answers from TheDoctor, our forum answering machine.
Nick, don't beg for support !

Uh oh, the machine's malfunctioning again.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #23
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
nick carter wrote:
If only your pronouncements were as unpredictable as your pop-ups, Patricia.

Paul Davidson wrote:
I don't know, Nick. Seems to me she hasn't had a pop-up for some time.

That's what I said, but for you I'll dumb it down: Patricia's pop-ups are as unpredictable as her pronouncements are predictable.

The alliteration is better the first way.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #24
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

nick carter wrote:
Patricia's pop-ups are as unpredictable as her pronouncements are predictable.

Nah, I don't go along with that. I think you're using the power of hindsight. How can you predict what she'll say if you can't predict when she'll say it? . . . unless you're predicting what you'll say and how she'll respond, which would make you . . . predictable!

Now, if you can prove that's just a logical paradox you get to call me 'pudenasha.'

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #25
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
How can you predict what she'll say if you can't predict when she'll say it? . .

"What" is one thing, but "when" is quite another. Patricia never says anything atypical of Patricia. Review her comments and you'll see what I mean. She's 100% predictable in that respect. But lately she's taken to laying low, then popping up to take a pot-shot, then returning to lurking mode. For this new development in her behavior I'm grateful, because she's even more tiresome than TheDoctor.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #26
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
If it wasn't for desire, where would we be? Are we better or worse off for it? Can we live without it? Can we find out if we can live without it? Does the desire to be free of desire bring freedom? Is freedom the end of desire?

Here's a quote from near the very end of Think On These Things that perhaps may surprise some people:

Krishnamurti said in Think On These Things:
Wanting to bring about a state of desirelessness is merely a trick of the mind. Seeing that desire creates misery and wanting to escape from it, the mind projects the ideal of desirelessness and then asks, "How am I to achieve that ideal?" And then what happens? In order to be desireless you suppress your desire, do you not? You throttle your desire, you try to kill it, and then you think you have achieved a state of desirelessness – which is false.

What is desire? It is energy, is it not? And the moment you throttle your energy you have made yourself dull, lifeless. That is what has happened in India. All the so-called religious men have throttled their desire; there are very few who think and are free. So, what is important is not to throttle desire, but to understand energy and the utilization of energy in the right direction.

You see, when you are young you have abounding energy – energy that makes you want to skip over the hills, reach for the stars. Then, society steps in and tells you to hold that energy within the walls of the prison which it calls respectability. Through education, through every form of sanction and control, that energy is gradually crushed out. But you need more energy, not less, because without immense energy you will never find out what is true. So the problem is not how to curtail energy, but how to maintain and increase it, how to make it independent and continuous – but not at the behest of any belief or society – so that it becomes the movement towards truth, God. Then energy has quite a different significance. As a pebble thrown into a calm lake creates an ever-widening circle, so the action of energy in the direction of what is true creates waves of a new culture. Then, energy is limitless, immeasurable, and that energy is God.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #27
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

No surprise. Just basic K. Desire is energy, etc.

The self, ego, is a product of desire, and the desire to do something about it by understanding it, negating it, throttling it, transcending it, etc., creates the conflict that we are. We are desire, self-perpetuation through conflict.

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Thu, 11 Nov 2010 #28
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Well, I say "surprising" because often K discusses desire quite differently:

Elsewhere (1st and Last Freedom), Krishnamurti said:
What is desire? Is it not the symbol and its sensation? Desire is sensation with the object of its attainment. Is there desire without a symbol and its sensation? Obviously not. The symbol may be a picture, a person, a word, a name, an image, an idea which gives me a sensation, which makes me feel that I like or dislike it; if the sensation is pleasurable, I want to attain, to possess, to hold on to its symbol and continue in that pleasure.

Whereas, in the Think On These Things quote he's discussing "desirelessness" and not just desire. So these are somewhat different angles. I find both beautiful.

We need to understand the working of desire. We also need to understand striving for desirelessness.

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Fri, 12 Nov 2010 #29
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I think K got it right there, Idiot.

See today's quote and understand how K uses language, which is very flexible and hardly literal, except where he is talking of specifics. Today he is quoted as follows:

"Your mind is hedged about with barriers set up through your cravings, which are the result of sensation and perception."

Now we see here he is saying that craving (concentrated or accelerated desire) is the result of sensation and perception. Does that make sensation and perception bad?

You see this is a sort of K shorthand. As he suggests above

Kcite>
So, what is important is not to throttle desire, but to understand . . .

It is only when sensation and perception has not been understood, fulfilled, completed, that it is retained as memory (work in progress) and then we need to repeat the sensation, repeat and repeat, as if mere repetition and memory will lead to understanding. It is not sensation that causes desire and craving, but the dependency on sensation alone without full understanding.

If you have fully understood a pleasure there is no desire to repeat it.

Then again, he sometimes used the word perception or 'direct perception of what is' as synonomous with understanding. As ever, the word is not the thing, it is a representation and therefore can be flexible in use according to context and environment.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 12 Nov 2010 #30
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

nick carter wrote:
We are desire, self-perpetuation through conflict.

Yes Nick, and also the obverse, we are conflict perpetuated through desire.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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