Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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hating Religion


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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #1
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

is the refusal to conform to a rigid ideal, such as religion, the same as "hating religion"?

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #2
Thumb_deleted_user_med Madhu Sameer United States 102 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

refusal to conform is different than hating.

I refuse to conform to any religion or ideal - be it K, or Buddha, or Ram or Christ or Jung or even my professors...

But I do not hate religion, religious teachings, teachers, professors or any such.

Disappointment with religion or hating religion is symbolic, it is a symptom of underlying discontent.....merely a displacement of some other hatred that is felt within, for something else that religion becomes an unsuspecting symbol for...

Usually, it is a disappointment or hatred with the biological father that gets projected onto God...religiousity comprises of a deep connection with one's parents that gets projected externally and makes up the illusion of God (note the capital g).....the texture of the relationship, the quality and quantity of the relationship is the same...

Either is empty, but the latter is stability enhancing - psychologically speaking....

the external God, or god exists or does not exist independent of our belief system...our belief or disbelief has nothing to do with it/him/Him.

Analyzed, yet thoroughly confused - The more I learn, the less I know

This post was last updated by Madhu Sameer (account deleted) Thu, 29 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #3
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Madhu Sameer wrote:
but the latter is stability enhancing - psychologically speaking..

You mean a crutch? Another temporary containment mechanism? I wonder what would happen, if we quit offering these stability measures, would people quit demanding them? Would it create chaos and confusion at all levels of human interaction? How could that be any worse, than what currently is?

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #4
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Madhu Sameer wrote:
I refuse to conform to any religion or ideal - be it K, or Buddha, or Ram or Christ or Jung or even my professors...

I will just respctfully point out, that all of the above, and much much more IS the "you/ego/I", which IS conformity to some ideal or other. The specific ideal (s) conformed/attached to, is not the fundamental factor, at all. It is our reliance/dependance upon the phenomenon, as a means of transcending our animal heritage, that is what we should look very care-fully at. Not this or that specific ideal.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #5
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I wrote this in another thread but I want it to share it with you here.

If you were a muslim condition woman what do you think about this Koran verset Madhu?? You will ponder over it or you will hate it / reject it??

dhirendra singh wrote:
You say there are some very beautiful insights in Islam. What is Islam? Few words! Beauty is in human, with Islam or without. Without Islam/ or any other blind belief system there will be beauty in human, but without division.

Only insanity in Islam,

There is a verset called Women's verset. Literally I know it in Arabic but I'll try to translate the most correctly.

If your wives do not abey to you, do not talk to them anymore, if they still not obey, do not make love to them, if they still insist not to obey to you, hit them, and if they still not obey, repudiate them.

Good insight in Coran/islam?? huh?? ;) Allah est grand :)

he promises you all the hell and punishment if you do not respect the list/Coran.

But do not Worry HE LOVES YOU ALLAH is AWsome, isn't it???

Crap, 100% crap that is ISLAM.

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #6
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
Beauty is in human,

But Dhi, where is there any (other than ideal) beauty, at all, in what humanity is, and has been doing? (and don't someone say "poetry". That is what I mean by "ideal", which is rather superficial.)

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #7
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
Crap, 100% crap that is ISLAM.

Why focus one one form of "crap"? It is all around, why point to one little turd, and say "ooh, you stink!"? (don't Jihad my @$$, please)
Of course it is quite difficult (i.e. lazy) to stay away from the personal, it takes a lot of "attention" in order to stay with the universal. Please, please, pretty please, I'm begging you, with all the love I can dream up, PLEASE, don't do that, don't be lazy. Even though it is all the rage these days.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #8
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

In the original country where I lived in the 90's men just chased by throwing ACId on their faces on women who do not put veils and long "Burka" some ugly black large clothes which cover their body and face.

You know why madhu??

Because Islam told them to do so.

Men's sexual excitement is not their fault, it is women's bodies and faces fault.

Islam religion is the most hateful. Sorry!!

What do you say Madhu???

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Randal Shacklett wrote:
Why focus one one form of "crap"? It is all around

Because there are levels of crap.

Islam is the highest form of crap ever. Believe me.

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #10
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
Islam religion is the most hateful. Sorry!!

Have you ever read anything by Jiddu Krishnamurti? What do you think K would say, to a posting such as this, in a place to discuss the things he talked about for some 60 plus years? Other than attack and defend, does anyone have any relationship to the things K spoke of? (teachings)

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #11
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
Islam is the highest form of crap ever. Believe me.

Uh, no, there are levels of personal stupidity. And no, I don't believe anything you say, believe me! ;o)

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #12
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Randal Shacklett wrote:
What do you think K would say, to a posting such as this, in a place to discuss the things he talked about for some 60 plus years?

He would say taht organized religions is the most destructful to human beings, and when they shape his mind it is a tragedy.

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #13
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Randal Shacklett wrote:
And no, I don't believe anything you say, believe me! ;o)

Up to you, you've never been islam conditionned I understand.

I do not believe anything you say neither. :)

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #14
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
you've never been islam conditionned I understand.

"Must one be a drunk, to understand sobriety"?

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #15
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
He would say taht organized religions is the most destructful to human beings, and when they shape his mind it is a tragedy.

But you miss the point and focus on your personal hatred/conditioning, don't do that, please, with sugar coating, I beg you.

he would say that, yes, but he would not single out one, as more or less destructive (other than numbers) than another.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #16
Thumb_deleted_user_med Madhu Sameer United States 102 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
What do you say Madhu???

Islam tells them to do things...but I am least concerned with them...my focus is on you....

what does it tell YOU Chafia?

You're so focussed on others....what about YOU? What do YOU get out of Islam?

Its the people that are stupid. What do the teachings have to do with it?

Most of my close friends are Muslims because I grew up with them. They are beautiful people. I feel more protected with them than with anyone else...one of them is my age, but I think of him as my dad....and in the last 30 years, he's always fulfilled the role...

What do you say to that Chafia?

*My posts are merely inquisitive and playful. Just cautioning that the written word appears more intense than it is intended to be, at least for me...

Analyzed, yet thoroughly confused - The more I learn, the less I know

This post was last updated by Madhu Sameer (account deleted) Thu, 29 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med Madhu Sameer United States 102 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Randal Shacklett wrote:
How could that be any worse, than what currently is?

Instability is worse than stability I suppose? Breathing is the same. We should try to get away from it I suppose, because we are dependent and we rely on it...

Perhaps a heart lung machine tied to our waist?

Analyzed, yet thoroughly confused - The more I learn, the less I know

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #18
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Madhu Sameer wrote:
Instability is worse than stability I suppose? Breathing is the same. We should try to get away from it I suppose, because we are dependent and we rely on it...

Is that true? If stability can be equated with complacency and comfort then your statement is not true. Instability can often be the stimulus we need to see our lives as they are and move away from comfort and security which keeps us from seeing reality.

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Thu, 29 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #19
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Madhu Sameer wrote:
And this one aspect of his teachings - the fact that he teaches people to shirk dependency - touches a complex within you....

OK, you're going to have to back this statement up. What possible basis can you have for saying this? You admit you haven't read K but yet you make this statement as if you have. You just imagine you know what K is saying. Oh wait, that's right I forgot. You were born in India so you know what K was saying at a deeper level. That's what you said on another thread. Just through your circumstance of birthyou know what K's discoveries were.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #20
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Madhu Sameer wrote:
Islam tells them to do things.

And so do you!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #21
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
Madhu Sameer wrote:
And this one aspect of his teachings - the fact that he teaches people to shirk dependency - touches a complex within you....

So instead of explaining this statement you decided to remove it from your original post. Thank you.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #22
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
What possible basis can you have for saying this? You admit you haven't read K but yet you make this statement as if you have.

It's short and sweet and ever so complete,"EGO"!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #23
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Madhu Sameer wrote:
BTW: This isn't just about you...it holds for everyone. We are all attracted to certain teachings because they resonate with our personal wounds...we are all wounded in the journey of life...and are looking at ways of healing...

My Dear Dr. Phil,whoops I meant honey,you are what you perceive,the observer is the observed!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #24
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Madhu Sameer wrote:
Most of my close friends are Muslims because I grew up with them. They are beautiful people. I feel more protected with them than with anyone else...

Madhu Sameer wrote:
What do you say to that Chafia?

I say that if they were some KKux Klan or some nazists or some monsters you will still feel protected with them, because as you said you grew up with them. They are not beautiful because they are muslims. You are subjective because they are your "family"

Please could you stop analyzing me, I do not want to be your guinea pig any more; Deal? :)

P.S.

I hate Islam not muslims. It is different.

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

This post was last updated by O. M. (account deleted) Thu, 29 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #25
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
Please could you stop analyzing me, I do not want to be your guinea pig any more;

Let's see if her Ego will allow that Chafia!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #26
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
I say that if they were some KKux Klan or some nazists or some monsters you will still feel protected with them, because as you said you grew up with them. They are not beautiful because they are muslims. You are subjective because they are your "falily"
Please could you stop analyzing me, I do not want to be your guinea pig any more; Deal? :)
P.S.
I hate Islam not muslims. It is different.

Chafia, sweetheart, I wish you the best that life has to offer and also unending peace. There is no path to peace but I think if you let go of all of your hopes and dreams you will find peace.

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Thu, 29 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #27
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
I hate Islam not muslims. It is different.

Ah but this supposed insight come from her Indian roots,she understands more deeply than those who are afflicted with different relious conditioning.The idol has clay feet!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #28
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Let's see if her Ego will allow that Chafia!

I wonder? :)

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #29
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
I don't know the path to peace but I think if you let go of all of your hopes and dreams you will find it.

You're probably right David, Thanks :)

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 29 Jul 2010 #30
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Madhu Sameer wrote:
Until you reach a place where you are not speaking from personal wounds,

yes by all mean,your highness,let us know when you have gone there!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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