Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Conditioning and attachment


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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #1
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

You will be able to see for yourself how you are conditioned only when there is a conflict in the continuity of pleasure or the avoidance of pain. If everything is perfectly happy around you, your wife loves you, you love her, you have a nice house, nice children and plenty of money, then you are not aware of your conditioning at all. But when there is a disturbance - when your wife looks at someone else or you lose your money or are threatened with war or any other pain or anxiety - then you know you are conditioned. When you struggle against any kind of disturbance or defend yourself against any outer or inner threat, then you know you are conditioned. And as most of us are disturbed most of the time, either superficially or deeply, that very disturbance indicates that we are conditioned. So long as the animal is petted he reacts nicely, but the moment he is antagonized the whole violence of his nature comes out.

Freedom from the Known Chapter 2

So much that is posted on this forum is just talk, theories, ideas. A few even assume to know so much that they advise others, constantly.

How many people really feel their conditioning moment by moment? I am not talking all of the time but at least some of the time? We can't feel the conditoning if we are still holding onto our habits, our routines. This became so clear to me when my wife left for a couple of weeks to visit her grown son and daughter. That's when, and only when, one can see how attached one is to another,when they are gone. If we continue to drink, or do drugs or hang onto our other personal comforting habits and routines then we never really see who we are we just pretend that we do. You can't do both. You can't hang onto your escapes and see your conditioning too.

And if we don't know our conditioning, our attachments, which is who we are, then we are just saying a lot of words that don't mean a damn thing.

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Thu, 08 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #2
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1931 posts in this forum Offline

Yes David - that is the painful fact of what we humans are up against. All else is theorizing, pretending, and grandstanding.

Desiring and discussing 'enlightenment' is one thing. The action of negation is quite something else altogether.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 08 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #3
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
You can't hang onto your escapes and see your conditioning too.

True. Are we not hanging to habits or escapes due to our conditioning. Even while hanging on one can observe without resistance, the intelligence then acts.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #4
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
How many people really feel their conditioning moment by moment?

One can know about one's conditioning as a reaction to conditioned response, but that is not 'self knowing'. One has to be aware of the conditioned response when it is arising in oneself. This will require total attention. This is much more arduous than storing knowledge about freedom from all the conditioning.

David Loucks wrote:
You can't do both. You can't hang onto your escapes and see your conditioning too.

Escapes also create problems in one's life. The pain of escapes can also push one to question one's habits, beliefs and other attachments. One's separation from what one is attached to is not the only reason for enquiry in to one's conditioning.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #5
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
A few even assume to know so much that they advise others, constantly.......

David Loucks wrote:
If we continue to drink, or do drugs or hang onto our other personal comforting habits

So what? Leave the Yogi to his Yoga and the Bhogi to his Bhoga :)

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #6
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
You can't hang onto your escapes and see your conditioning too.

But you can keep living with your wife without being attached to her.

David Loucks wrote:
This became so clear to me when my wife left for a couple of weeks

Are we aware of our conditioning only when we are in trouble?

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #7
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

O. M. wrote:
Are we aware of our conditioning only when we are in trouble?

He only says it is getting more clearer.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #8
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

O. M. wrote:
Are we aware of our conditioning only when we are in trouble?

What do you think?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med O. M. France 94 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
What do you think?

I am fed up with thinking. I let you do it. You are good at it.

ganesan balachandran wrote:
He only says it is getting more clearer. gb

He said "That's when, and only when, one can see how attached one is to another,when they are gone."

Conditioning seen/aware of when and only when loneliness/trouble occur. :)

I am not just the drop in the ocean. I am the whole ocean in the drop.

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Thu, 08 Jul 2010 #10
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

As K discussed many times, our conditioning is not limited to our own lifetime and experiences. The brain has been undergoing conditioning for millions of years. We as a species evolved as problem solvers going all the way back to at least the early hominids that lived more than four million years ago.

To survive we needed to solve the problem of our basic needs; food, shelter, clothing. The brain, not your brain or my brain, is hard wired to see a problem and and then find a solution. This process has served us well on the physical level. But apparently the problem, as discussed by K and Dr. Bohm, is that we internalized this process to solve our psychological problems and that is where we screwed up.

So now when we see, or are told, that psychological conditioning is what is keeping us from living fully we attack the problem like we have always attacked our problems. We think we must come up with a solution and move toward that end or goal we set for ourselves. We think we must become "unconditioned". And if we work hard enough we can do it. We think that "enlightenment" awareness, freedom (whatever you want to call it) is something to acquire, to become. We are simply acting as we have been conditioned to act. Our nature, our conditioning, is NOT to simply observe without wanting or expecting any results.

It is not that just part of our thought process is conditioned and we must get rid of the bad conditioning and save the good part of who we are. It is that all of our thought is conditioned. All of who we think we are is conditioning because all of who we are is the invention of thought. Each of us is the sum of our knowledge and experiences, which is memory, which is the past. So when someone says I am enlightened, or I am free, or I am not conditioned they are making a false and absurd statement. It is the past saying it is the eternal present. The "I" which is conditioned can never be the unconditioned.

I know for most of you who may be reading this that what I have written is basic and obvious. I do have a point to all of this but I am trying to go slowly and point out something.

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Fri, 09 Jul 2010 #11
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1931 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
I do have a point to all of this but I am trying to go slowly and point out something.

And I, for one, am following where you are going with all this with interest.

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Fri, 09 Jul 2010 #12
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

O. M. wrote:
I am fed up with thinking. I let you do it. You are good at it.

Are you not fed up with this.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 09 Jul 2010 #13
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

O. M. wrote:
Conditioning seen/aware of when and only when loneliness/trouble occur. :)

That is why i recommended your post too:)

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 09 Jul 2010 #14
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
The brain has been undergoing conditioning for millions of years.

excuse me for the trouble. shall we leave this conditioning.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 09 Jul 2010 #15
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
I do have a point to all of this but I am trying to go slowly and point out something.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
And I, for one, am following where you are going with all this with interest.

David me too.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 09 Jul 2010 #16
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1931 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
David me too.

Perhaps the forum is finally on the edge of a serious discussion - at last. Seriously!

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Sat, 10 Jul 2010 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

If you have read more than a few books by K or seen him speak more than a few times you have probably heard him say, "The first step is the last step" or "Freedom is at the beginning and not something to be achieved at the end". I used to think that these statements were more metaphorical than literal. They're not.

There isn't anything to do, no one to become, no hope of being enlightened or free or anything else. And this realization may either cause you to despair (despair being the flip-side of hope and both are nothing more than disorder invented by thought) or you may feel like a tremendous weight has been lifted from you. Maybe for the first time you realize that there is nothing to do, nothing to achieve. No success or failure where so-called "spiritual transformation" is concerned. Just living.

The default state of the universe is order. We provide the disorder.

Really, we have no control. After all we didn't invent this idea of living for a short time with alternating feelings of misery and happiness and then dying of disease or by accident. We may prolong our lives by living healthily. But we can't do a damn thing about death. So that's settled, we don't have to worry about death anymore. All we have to do is live.

Can we stop trying to change everything to fit our comfort zone? Our comfort zone is our prison.

Get your affairs in order the same way you would if your doctor told you that you have a week to live. If there are problems in your life fix them. If you can't fix them....then forget them. If there are people you need to forgive or if there are people who need to forgive you then offer forgiveness and accept forgiveness. If some people aren't ready to forgive and forget, that's not your problem. Either way it's done.

Realize that you will never end your conditioning or your attachments. When these things come up in your life see them for what they are and let them pass without reacting to them.

Presently, the world is being lead by the insane. I am speaking here of the decision makers in the mega corporations and their lackies who run the governments and the religious leaders.

The world is being destroyed before our very eyes. What we do does make a difference. What we eat or don't eat, how much we consume or don't consume,what we say and how we treat others do make a difference. All we can do is live the best lives that we can and if humanity doesn't make it, then it doesn't make it.

I am no expert, I am no authority. I may be completely wrong. It doesn't matter a bit what David thinks or sees. It only matters what you see. This is the way I see it.

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #18
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1931 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
The default state of the universe is order. We provide the disorder.

To go even further: The universe IS order - Humanity is the only disorder.

David - you make strong points here.

Human beings are destroying our planet. The human world is not only 'being led by the insane' but worse, the human brain generally is becoming more senile by the day. More fooled by celebrity, greed, image, the need and justification for violence - and the ever-more-prevalent belief that there is no effective action that anyone can take because the disorder is so complete, and we are just a unimportant and ineffective speck in it all.

The only action that can be taken is an internal one: that being to allow the brain to heal - to contemplate, ponder, rest, and perhaps allow it to find its own natural order - through correct diet of both body and mind. But if there is only one human brain on the planet, then that healing pervades.

Denying the human disorder only exacerbates it. Observing it in oneself at every moment (but without feeding it further) is an honest action. Perhaps the only honest action one can take.

Anyway - good honest discussion. And that is important if one can come across it, and allow it to manifest.

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #19
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
Realize that you will never end your conditioning or your attachments. When these things come up in your life see them for what they are and let them pass without reacting to them.

The whole post is insightful,this paragraph really stood out for me,thank you for starting a thread to discuss the discoveries Krishnamurti pointed to in the teachings.For me every time I read something of the teachings,or see a video of K giving a talk,something new is revealed to me.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #20
Thumb_21072008016 sunil jain India 29 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Denying the human disorder only exacerbates it. Observing it in oneself at every moment (but without feeding it further) is an honest action. Perhaps the only honest action one can take.

To observe human disorder without feeding it further is difficult. The disorder outside is due to this interior feeding, No? The problems in world are increasing making observation of disorder more difficult and the honest action remains theory.

love2 travel in real life

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #21
Thumb_21072008016 sunil jain India 29 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
Realize that you will never end your conditioning or your attachments. When these things come up in your life see them for what they are and let them pass without reacting to them.

Some clarification please.

Conditioning and attachments are so because of our reactions. Otherwise they are simple thoughts. It will not be easy to pass them without reaction. Then what is a person to do ?

love2 travel in real life

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #22
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunil jain wrote:
It will not be easy to pass them without reaction. Then what is a person to do ?

It will not be easy speaks to becoming,does it not?Is it not the self which seeks to "Do Something" about what is? Is not inattention now at the root of questions of the future,and also references to past experience to judge the present moment?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #23
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2991 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Perhaps the forum is finally on the edge of a serious discussion - at last. Seriously!

Until I am staying out from discussion, So I am Out after saying best of luck!

I don't know

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #24
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunil jain wrote:
David Loucks wrote:
Realize that you will never end your conditioning or your attachments. When these things come up in your life see them for what they are and let them pass without reacting to them.
Some clarification please.
Conditioning and attachments are so because of our reactions. Otherwise they are simple thoughts. It will not be easy to pass them without reaction. Then what is a person to do ?

Sunil, I think a lot of things that I wrote need clarification. Thanks for asking your question and giving me a chance to clarify one thing that I wrote.

Using both of the words conditioning and attachments is misleading and confusing. We are attached because of our conditioning. Attachment is not seperate from conditioning. I am basing my statement on the premise or fact that all thought is conditioned and attachment is the result of thought. Thought is memory and memory is experience and knowledge. We are conditioned by our experience and knowledge. So if we are thinking-- we are conditioned. And let's face it, we have to think to live.

The problem seems to be that instead of just using thought to solve our day to day physical problems and to do the tasks we need to do to live, we have internalized thought. We try to solve our psychological problems by trying to think our way out of them not realizing that that is how the problems originated in the first place; from thought.

So, using the situation that all of us find ourselves in from time to time, which is the discomfort or pain of attachment we feel to that which is momentarily not available to us. What do we do? We escape from that pain of missing someone, our wife, pardner or husband. They are not there with us and we realized that we "need" them and we see how attached we are to them. So instead of staying with that pain we escape. We drink a beer, read a book, watch a movie, take drugs, get on Kinfonet, think about how much fun we are going to have doing something or other tomorrow etc, etc. This is the reaction to attachment I was referring to.

If we stay with that discomfort or pain then we can understand how our attachment works, how it affects us and how we are basically escaping moment by moment throughout our whole lives. If you look at it, our days are one long escape. Which doesn't mean you can't have enjoyment and pleasure. I am saying you can be aware of what you are doing, of how you are escaping, without reacting to it. Without trying to stop or change what you are doing but just watching. That's all and yes it is hard to do.

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Sun, 11 Jul 2010.

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #25
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
Until I am staying out from discussion, So I am Out after saying best of luck!

I am not quite sure of what you are saying here. But this is an open forum and you are as welcome as anyone to join in the discussion.

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #26
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
through correct diet of both body and mind.

Patricia, thanks for your input and your many good points. I would like to add something to your above comment. It turns out, not surprisingly, that a diet that is good for the individual is also good for the planet as a whole. The raising of livestock for food is one of the major causes of global climate change. Seventy to eighty percent of our potable water and 70% of the grain are being used to raise livestock. Commercial meat is not only extrememly unhealthy to consume it is also the most inefficient food source imaginable. If governments didn't subsidize the raising of livestock one hamburger would cost any where from $35 to $100 in US dollars. And all this is going on while the UN reports that 20k children are starving to death every day. Insanity!

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #27
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
It will not be easy speaks to becoming,does it not?Is it not the self which seeks to "Do Something" about what is? Is not inattention now at the root of questions of the future,and also references to past experience to judge the present moment?

Interesting point.

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Sun, 11 Jul 2010 #28
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
We try to solve our psychological problems by trying to think our way out of them not realizing that that is how the problems originated in the first place; from thought.

Yes,thank you!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Mon, 12 Jul 2010 #29
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1931 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
It turns out, not surprisingly, that a diet that is good for the individual is also good for the planet as a whole. The raising of livestock for food is one of the major causes of global climate change. Seventy to eighty percent of our potable water and 70% of the grain are being used to raise livestock. Commercial meat is not only extrememly unhealthy to consume it is also the most inefficient food source imaginable. If governments didn't subsidize the raising of livestock one hamburger would cost any where from $35 to $100 in US dollars. And all this is going on while the UN reports that 20k children are starving to death every day. Insanity!

David - Yes it is insanity. Human beings are naturally herbivores, if one looks at our physicality - long intestine for example (carnivores have short intestines so the meat does not ferment in there) and there is no doubt most of human disease is due to incorrect diet.

In Australia also it is also believed that the meat industry must be supported, so the cruelty of it is ignored and everyone encouraged to eat the kill. Such insensitivity being promoted here!

But at least one can take a personal action in this matter, and many do. Our diet is completely animal free, and we have never been healthier. I am only sorry I was not born into a family who understood the disorder of consuming meat, as many Indian families do for example.

And of course, as you point out, the whole planet is undermined at many levels by this disorder, not to mention the terror of the sentient beings we herd and destroy. Any wonder humans can choose to close their eyes when atrocities happen against our own kind. We are conditioned to be completely de-sensitized.

And then there is the imbalance of immense wealth and intense poverty.......

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Mon, 12 Jul 2010 #30
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1931 posts in this forum Offline

sunil jain wrote:
To observe human disorder without feeding it further is difficult. The disorder outside is due to this interior feeding, No? The problems in world are increasing making observation of disorder more difficult and the honest action remains theory.

Sunil - Why does honest action remain theory? Ceasing an animal diet is not theory - it is fact - as it the much better health that accompanies it.

Watching every conditioned thought as it arises is not theory. And without judgement of any given thought or wishing it to be otherwise, one is not adding to the disorder, but simply observing it purely. There is honest action there - not theory.

There is a trap one can fall into with K's teaching, which is: Psychological thought, which wants to stay in control, will put up the argument that there is nothing to be done because it is all THEORY - and then one is paralyzed and challenges nothing - and psychological thought and conditioning have won - again!

K always claimed that to go deeply into the teaching one requires a sharp brain. And a sharp brain will not invent dogma and doctrine out of the words K said, but will actually go into it and FIND OUT first-hand. No more excuses.

Is it difficult? - perhaps. Does it require great attention? - definitely. Is there anything more important to embark upon? Surely not. Unless one is happy to continue on in the same old conditioned mess of disorder.

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