Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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My Daily Dialogue With Krishnamurti


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Tue, 25 May 2010 #1
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"You never see life as it really is; you look at it only through a screen of prejudice, and therefore, your action must ever be incomplete, it must ever have a motive."

And you, I take it, have no motive whatsoever. You're making this statement publicly, fearlessly, because you have no motive. Please...something moves you to do what you're doing. You can claim ignorance of what IT is or you can call it The Sacred, or Whatever, but its moving you and you're moved by it, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

What moves me is, to you, petty, superficial, vain and ugly, and I can see that. But isn't it condescending of you to make such pronouncements from the pulpit we've granted you? I'm willing to take you at your word, but when your word is more dismissive and separative than it is elucidating, I question your motive.

This post was last updated by nick carter (account deleted) Tue, 25 May 2010.

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Wed, 26 May 2010 #2
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"That which is real will be known when the various forms of illusions have ceased."

Well, duh...

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Wed, 26 May 2010 #3
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
And you, I take it, have no motive whatsoever. You're making this statement publicly, fearlessly, because you have no motive. Please...something moves you to do what you're doing. You can claim ignorance of what IT is or you can call it The Sacred, or Whatever, but its moving you and you're moved by it, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
What moves me is, to you, petty, superficial, vain and ugly, and I can see that. But isn't it condescending of you to make such pronouncements from the pulpit we've granted you? I'm willing to take you at your word, but when your word is more dismissive and separative than it is elucidating, I question your motive.

Why do you say it is your daily dialogue with K when it is obvious that you are having a dialogue with yourself, Nick ?

But this is a good topic that you have started. One's genuine response/reaction to daily quote can be a step in the right direction in understanding oneself.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Wed, 26 May 2010 #4
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
"That which is real will be known when the various forms of illusions have ceased."

Can illusions ever cease ? My feeling is that if one is moving fast enough, then they may not catch up. Otherwise mind lives only in illusions. It knows no other way of existence.

Looked up 'duh' in the dictionary, Nick. Is the meaning of the quote really so simple and obvious that everyone will understand it easily ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Sudhir Sharma Wed, 26 May 2010.

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Thu, 27 May 2010 #5
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

As long as one is looking at life from a particular point of view, or from a particular experience which one has cherished, which is one's background, which is the `me', one cannot see the totality.

"After reading the quote I ask myself, 'The silence, emptiness and clarity of perception that I know, are they now forming the background, the 'me' ?'

How can I be certain that they have not become a system ? Has my mind learnt the trick of producing silence, emptiness, clarity of perception ?

Can anyone else answer these questions for me ? Or the answer will be given by the changes that come in my behaviour, in the quality of my day to day life. What is that way of living that will not permit any experience to strngthen the background, the 'me' ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Thu, 27 May 2010 #6
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"As long as one is looking at life from a particular point of view, or from a particular experience which one has cherished, which is one's background, which is the `me', one cannot see the totality."

How does a human look at life when not looking through its own experience, its conditioning? I don't know and I can't imagine. If such looking is possible, the brain would have to operate differently, and you've said that your brain is operating in that new and different way.

But what makes you so sure that any brain can undergo this radical transformation and that talking about it will bring it about? I see no evidence that other brains have undergone this change, and I'm not certain that yours has. Granted, humanity desperately needs to undergo such a change, but if the brain hasn't freed itself from its crippling, violent condition after decades of talking about it, how are you any different from a cleric preaching about salvation?

Now at this point, right on cue, a chorus of voices pipes up to announce that their brains have undergone this change and that they are indeed transformed, much like Christians testifying to having been saved, and I wonder how you feel about having spawned this brood.

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Fri, 28 May 2010 #7
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Love has no problem and that is why it is so destructive and dangerous.

"To me love is sensitivity, attention with care plus a living, dynamic element that is undefinable.Sure it destroys lots of things. In those moments when it is blessing my life there is no anxiety, sadness,fear and confusion. The soceity exists and surrounds me from all sides, but there is less conflict with anyone or anything. The challenges of life do not become a load to be carried by an unwilling, complaining mind. There is no doubt that Love has made the working of my mind uncomplicated and stress free.

"But why did K call love dangerous ? I do not get it. It is neither dangerous to me nor to others related to me. As my understanding deepens about it, my relationships are become better. Now I laugh a lot with others. There is more co-operation, more sharing. Adjustments, tolerance and patience come naturally. Perhaps someone will throw some light here on 'dangerous' aspect of love."

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Fri, 28 May 2010 #8
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

If one is in love, will never ask whether love is dangerous or not!

Love can't be lesser deeper or more deeper, either it is or it is not.

It is dangerous, because it doesn't follow the rules of society, state or of phylosophy. It destroy all division, so destroy division of greatness, of all achievement, of all evalution of human being, all grading, all reward and punishment, which are base of society, it destroy all.

I don't know

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Fri, 28 May 2010 #9
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The subject of love elicits the dumbest comments because no one knows what it is. The only thing K really had to say about it is that it ain't what you think it is.

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Sat, 29 May 2010 #10
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
The subject of love elicits the dumbest comments because no one knows what it is. The only thing K really had to say about it is that it ain't what you think it is.

Yes Nick - It is wisdom to leave the subject of love out of it altogether.

Discussing love always sounds like a massive attack of the 'warm fuzzies'. Humanity has been so conditioned with a 'Hollywood' view of what love is.

K made great sense when he basically said that love is not at all what human thought has interpreted it to be - and that love cannot be owned, any more than death and creation can be owned.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sat, 29 May 2010.

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Sat, 29 May 2010 #11
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
The only thing K really had to say about it is that it ain't what you think it is.

then it is really dangerous.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 29 May 2010 #12
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

And K tells you, listen, take time, in the sense, have patience.

Todays quote, i was rather hesitant in sending this to my friends which generally i do naturally. why?
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 29 May 2010 #13
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
then it is really dangerous. gb

Why judge it (love) to be 'dangerous'? Or anything else for that matter? Can one judge what one does not understand?

What is this constant human propensity for judgment? Can humanity not just accept our limitations and ignorance? Then perhaps the thing itself (love? creation? death?) might be free to act. Then again - it may not! Who knows?

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Sat, 29 May 2010 #14
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Patience is not time. Impatience is time. Patience has no time.

"Today's quote clearly shows the main cause of all my disturbances. I am feverishly trying to achieve, to reach, to fulfill, to become one or the other thing all the time. This feverishness is impatience. My thoughts of past and future creat this impatience and also create the time. So, it is not difficult to understand that impatience is time.

"But what about 'Patience has no time'? Do I have this quality of patience ? When things are moving as I want them to move, then being patient is not difficult. But when impatience is the fact, is the actual state of mind, then what do I do ?

"I understand that 'seeing' the impatience, 'seeing' the disturbance (thoughts) creating the impatience is the way out. What does this actually mean to me ? I can try to give words to my understanding in this matter.

"It means that I put all my energy in looking at the fact of whatever my mind is occupied with. I look and let go. If I do this with awareness, with attention, then my mind is not getting attached to any thought. I feel that this movement of awareness that does not allow any thought to grow roots gives the quality of patience to my mind. It is not the result of my effort but a by-product of this movement."

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 29 May 2010 #15
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Can humanity not just accept our limitations and ignorance? Then perhaps the thing itself (love? creation? death?) might be free to act. Then again - it may not! Who knows?

yes no guarantee!so pateince please:)

I don't know

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Sat, 29 May 2010 #16
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

your reply altogether is very nice.thank you Madam.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Sat, 29 May 2010.

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Sat, 29 May 2010 #17
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"And K tells you, listen, take time, in the sense, have patience. Patience is not time. Impatience is time. Patience has no time."

If to "take time" is to "have patience" because "patience is not time", taking time and having patience is taking time out; out of the equation, so to speak.

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Sun, 30 May 2010 #18
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"We are not concerned with individual salvation or individual liberation, or whatever the individual is trying to seek but rather with the whole movement of life, the understanding of the whole current of existence"

Who do you mean by "we"? You may be the only human on the planet who feels that way.

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Sun, 30 May 2010 #19
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
"We are not concerned with individual salvation or individual liberation, or whatever the individual is trying to seek but rather with the whole movement of life, the understanding of the whole current of existence"

nick carter wrote:
Who do you mean by "we"? You may be the only human on the planet who feels that way.

And he may NOT be the only person to feel that way. Who knows?

Isn't K in fact stating here that individualism is a road to no change at all? That unless one is passionate about 'understanding the whole current of existence' one can only remain stuck in the same old rut of human conditioned responses? And that there is no 'individual salvation or liberation' - there is only the desire for such?

And isn't that the constant mistake that wallows along in the wake of K's teaching - the desire for personal and individual liberation without the passion to understand 'the whole current of existence'?

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Sun, 30 May 2010 #20
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

We are not concerned with individual salvation or individual liberation, or whatever the individual is trying to seek but rather with the whole movement of life, the understanding of the whole current of existence;

"This is not difficult to understand. The more time I spend in thinking about achieving personal salvation or liberation or whatever, stronger become the roots of 'self'. The increased intellectual activity in this direction is not the way out for ending the conflicts in my life, this realisation has freed quite a lot of energy in me.

"The emphasis from 'thinking' to 'seeing' has brought awareness in touch with non-verbal movement of my day to day life. What has helped greatly in bringing about this transformation is a sense of 'allergy' to the movement of thoughts. There is now hardly any inclination to understand 'life' verbally as observing daily life, moment to moment, has become preferred activity."

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 31 May 2010 #21
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Demand it! Don't say: ''Where does it come from?'' There may be a motive, but the very demand washes it all away.

" This has been quite difficult to understand and grasp. What is this 'Demand' of 'essence of excellence' k is pointing towards ? He makes it clear that this is not something that mind can think about and then understand. he also states that it is not a directional thing.

"Then what is this 'Demand' ? Excellence in anything is achieved by total attention, dedication, sensitivity and high degree of intelligence. One has to love what one is doing. What I understand about it is difficult to put in words, but I will try.

"The 'essence' of excellence is that state of mind that is totally aware, not about anything, but aware to receive anything. It is the light of attention that is not illuminating anything, but is ready to illuminate whatever will come in its focus. It is the 'essence' of excellence and not excellence in operation. It is an actual, living state of mind,the beginning state of consciousness, a very fertile land in which nothing is growing but everything will live and die here."

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Sudhir Sharma Mon, 31 May 2010.

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Mon, 31 May 2010 #22
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"Demand it! Don't say: ''Where does it come from?'' There may be a motive, but the very demand washes it all away."

By implication, you're saying that we're not demanding it (the essence of excellence; morality, goodness) because we're not good enough, and obviously that's the case because if we were good enough you wouldn't have to tell us what to do.

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Tue, 01 Jun 2010 #23
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

If I have the whole picture in mind then I can take in the detail; but if my mind only operates in a detail then I cannot take in the whole.

"'What is the way to see the whole ?' making efforts to find the answer of this question is to operate in the detail, this understanding took quite a long time to take roots.

"What I have understood is very simple. When the clarity of perception (in listening, seeing, observing) is present, the whole energy is involved in perceiving. This clarity of perception by mind is not possible if there is any leakage of energy as thought, but when the mind is aware of the movement of thought clearly, then this is not leakage of energy as inner silence is forming the background.

"Inner silence and outer clarity of perception are necessary for mind to to have the whole picture. When the mind is fulfilling these two criteria, then such a mind can also take in the details easily without losing touch with the whole."

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Wed, 02 Jun 2010 #24
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

One needs to find that state of mind that is really free from all search, from all belief - without becoming cynical, without stagnating.

" That state of mind which is free from all search, from all belief is emptiness, this understanding was not easy to come by. Before I was resisting or suppressing or identifying ith all thoughts. Thoughts of desires, beliefs and seeking should not exist, that was my understanding. I was escaping from all these thoughts either in to perception or silence of mind.

"When I understood that basic nature of my mind is emptiness and when I was willing to be with this nothingness, then all searching ceased. Then my mind was able to look at thoughts without getting identified with or trying to escape from them. There was light of awareness in this emptiness that was illuminating all the thoughts.

" Now the mind was not working in darkness which is stagnation and root cause of pain, sorrow, fear etc. This emptiness which is the deepest, dynamic state of my being has the potential to free me from all becoming and seeking whenever I am in touch with it."

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Wed, 02 Jun 2010 #25
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 777 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"One needs to find that state of mind that is really free from all search, from all belief - without becoming cynical, without stagnating."

There is seeking and there is trying to find out. Seeking is sentimental, escapist. Finding out is scientific; going into things to get at the underlying truth of the matter. You don't always make this distinction clear.

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Thu, 03 Jun 2010 #26
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

If you change because of argumentation, because logically it is so, because you are influenced, then you are only conditioned in a different direction, which brings again its sorrow.

" Why is my mind always willing to exchange one set of conditioning for another set ? The answer is that it is afraid to be alone and empty. This understanding was initially intellectual. So noting was changing and stress of living was as before.

" What has changed now is the understanding that this emptiness, this void is me. Now I am not running away from the emptiness. Staying with this nothingness has made all the difference.

" This emptiness is eternally in movement- always moving with the 'now' moment. The 'choiceless awareness' is a quality of it. When observation of inner and outer world starts from this void, then there is clarity of perception as conditioned thoughts are unable to catch up with this movement."

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Fri, 04 Jun 2010 #27
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Are we aware when we are not telling the truth, when we are indulging in double talk, when we are saying one thing and doing something else, when we are quoting others?

" I do not know swimming and if I tell someone that I know swimming, then I will immediately become aware of the lie. Such awareness was not easy to come by in the matters of spirit/mind as it was very difficult to differentiate between intellectual understanding and factual understanding of what was said.

" Now I have found that the awareness in the present moment does not allow me to make false claims. The hesitation and uneasiness stops me before saying anything that is not my direct understanding. I have understood that clarity of perception comes easily and naturaly with simple living. There is only sharing of what I understand without the pressure to convince or impress anyone about anything. So there is no need to indulge in double talk or to lie. The learning process about myself is going on and that keeps me on the right track in this matter."

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 05 Jun 2010 #28
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

A mind that is merely occupied is a petty mind, whether it is occupied with the highest knowledge, or with the daily activities of the kitchen, or the job.

" The thought process is going on all the time in my mind.The difference between 'a mind that is merely occupied' and 'mind that is observing its own activities' is now understood by me. The former activity is a result of attachment and identification while later is an action that is going to free the mind from the conflict and confusion of its own making.

" Which factor is responsible for this difference between the two ? The answer to this question came to me in many ways in words but now I understand that the actual difference is caused by one's state of being when dealing with the thoughts. This is the reason that explains as to why it is impossible to end this occupation of mind by mere intellectual understanding."

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 05 Jun 2010 #29
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
" Which factor is responsible for this difference between the two ?

" When I look in as an outsider and observe the movement of thought, then my mind is occupied with this activity. But if I am looking outwards with quite mind the movement of thoughts, then I am free of the identification with thought instantly."

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Sun, 06 Jun 2010 #30
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

I feel that a radical change can come only when there is no effort, when the mind is not trying to become something, not trying to be virtuous - which does not mean that the mind must be nonvirtuous.

" I understand that choiceless awareness of the movement of thought is the key here. All becoming is an effort as it takes place away from the light of attention in the darkness. I understand that not to become something is also an effort. The radical change did not come till the fact of being empty at its core was not understood by my mind. There is no becoming there and all action is effortless. In that living nothingness/emptiness is present the seed of radical change K is referring to."

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