Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Are we exerting all our energy to meet the current crisis?


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Mon, 04 May 2020 #1
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

There is currently a crisis right across the world. It is affecting every aspect of our daily lives. And we don't know how long it is all going to last. And we certainly don't know the long-lasting ramifications of it in all sorts of areas of our existence, whether it is going to damage us economically, politically, psychologically, even sexually. And we are sharing this thing. It is not happening in some remote or distant corner of the globe which we can conveniently ignore.

Probably, for the first time in history, we don't need to argue this fact. At least, I hope we don't. Surely, it is here with us; and we are here with it. So, how are we meeting this crisis, facing this fact?

I am putting a very simple question. Don't be too quick to dismiss it or to answer it with a few glib remarks. This is a tremendous thing that is happening all over the world. We are right in the middle of it. Therefore, inwardly, is there an equally tremendous response to it? Tremendous in the sense that something unprecedented takes place in the psychological field just as it is taking place in the physical field.

Let's talk it over. Let's find out.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #2
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5846 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Probably, for the first time in history, we don't need to argue this fact. At least, I hope we don't. Surely, it is here with us; and we are here with it. So, how are we meeting this crisis, facing this fact?

Paul, I think you have raised an interesting topic. But about your first sentence. There are literally millions of people in the United States of America who have completely denied the world wide virus, Covid-19 and it's deadly side effects. The US might quite possibly be the most unintelligent so-called "modern" country in the world. But from our psychopathic "President" on down through the ranks of his neo-Nazi followers there is an almost complete denial of Covid-19 .

I look forward to an interesting discussion of the points you have brought up in your above post. Good health to you.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 04 May 2020.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5846 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
world wife virus, Covid-19 and it's deadly side effects.

Okay, is that virus catching?

Apparently so. I have been happily married most of my life. But it hasn't killed me....yet.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #4
Thumb_coa104 Ken D United States 24 posts in this forum Offline

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #5
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

In the US we are all a sitting duck. It's a matter of when we get it..

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Tue, 05 May 2020 #6
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine:
There are literally millions of people in the United States of America who have completely denied the worldwide virus... and its deadly side effects.

But this isn't about other people. That's the whole point. This is about what is happening to you and me. This is our crisis. Those who pretend there is no crisis will continue with that belief even into the face of nuclear holocaust; behind that pretence there are all sorts of things going on which prevent intelligent communication. But we at least are able to talk.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Tue, 05 May 2020.

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Tue, 05 May 2020 #7
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D: Wait until Bruce lands into you over on K Ning.

Again, that's about what other people are doing and saying. But what is our response to all this?

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Tue, 05 May 2020 #8
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: In the US we are all a sitting duck. It's a matter of when we get it.

That's just one part of it. As well as the physical impact of catching some strange new disease and the effect of that disease upon the body, there is also the psychological impact of all this. The psychological crisis is not something new; indeed, it is extremely old. What is new is that for the first time in human history we are all directly involved with this crisis at the same time, even in those countries which are so far largely unaffected.

The word 'crisis' means a time of great difficulty or danger. It also means the turning point of a disease, the moment when an important change takes place, indicating either recovery or death. The body may act quite quickly to dispel this new virus or the body may be overwhelmed by it and die; that's the unknown physical factor. But what is the real psychological crisis? Do we just recover from this episode and carry on as before? Or does a radical change take place? This is really the question I am putting.

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Tue, 05 May 2020 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
The psychological crisis is not something new; indeed, it is extremely old.

That's funny. K 101: The crisis is new. Our response to it is old.

Ken's video is proof the crisis is new. Has there ever before been a US vice president breathing fire? I don't think so.

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Tue, 05 May 2020 #10
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

idiot: The crisis is new. Our response to it is old.

The crisis has a new appearance, a new sheen; but actually it is centuries old. So what is a new response to what is presently happening throughout the world? That's what I want to get at. Do you? Are you really interested in all this? Or are you just interested in scoring points? I am asking; I am not asserting that you are nor dismissing your remarks.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Tue, 05 May 2020.

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Tue, 05 May 2020 #11
Thumb_coa104 Ken D United States 24 posts in this forum Offline

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Wed, 06 May 2020 #12
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Pain and pleasure exist within a matrix of thought, whereby there is the recall of incidents from the past and the projection of images into the future. Therefore, any operation of thought triggers immediately the infinite possibilities of pain and pleasure, of personal loss and gain, of social failure and success. So not only do pain and pleasure exist within a matrix of thought, but thought itself exists within a matrix of pain and pleasure. This is the essence of our limited approach. We stay at home because there is less risk of pain, both the physical risk of catching the disease and the psychological risk of being socially castigated.

Now, the crisis has descended and we are all thinking about it. That’s the first human response, the basis of all our activity. So each decision we make stems from thought. And thought stems from pain and pleasure. Pleasure and pain are two sides of the same coin; and it is a coin forged or minted from fear.

This is limited action. There is nothing new about it. This has been our habit for generations, however large or small the crises in our lives have been. The only difference is that now we are all sharing the same central crisis, even though the peripheral effects of it may be varied according to one’s financial or cultural background.

My question is about exploring the possibility of an entirely different kind of response, one which wipes away altogether the old patterns of pain, pleasure, thought and fear. That’s basically what I am talking about, asking about. That’s why I started this thread, hoping that at least one or two of us might explore this question. The energy of thought is not only a limited form of energy, it is identical to fear in every respect; and although we don’t seem to see this except as a theoretical proposition, I am suggesting that we have an opportunity right across the world to explore right now and right here something directly practical, which is another form of energy altogether.

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Wed, 06 May 2020 #13
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1487 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
another form of energy altogether.

Well Paul, I don't know if these thoughts this morning are just more of the same old same old but I'll post them anyway. I think the virus is giving Man a moment to reflect on what we have 'wrought'. The inequity, the hideous priorities, the lack of compassion, the insanity of nationalism, racism, classism, etc....the ignorance of how the whole thing has been put together has become a bit clearer to me and perhaps to others. This line from my past came to me: "what profiteth a man, that he lose his soul". Anyway, it seemed that the desire for more and more 'profit' was somehow at the bottom of it all. The thoughts I awoke with this AM circled around: "what the hell is going on, what's wrong with us?... Baby pigs being slaughtered and disposed of because the processing plants are shut down and people on the other side of this small world dying of starvation! There are too many examples of that sort of craziness to enumerate....What matters it seems, is making that 'profit', keeping the 'prices' high...no free lunch, etc.

I'll leave it with this little flash of 'insight'(?). The animals need food and shelter to safely raise their young. We need food and shelter and clothing. But beyond those necessities, we also need Compassion, Wisdom and Love. We won't make it in the long haul without those last three, as far as I can see.

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Wed, 06 May 2020 #14
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott: The animals need food and shelter to safely raise their young. We need food and shelter and clothing. But beyond those necessities, we also need Compassion, Wisdom and Love. We won't make it in the long haul without those last three, as far as I can see.

It's very clear what we mean by food, shelter and clothing. They are visible, tangible things. But what is compassion?

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Wed, 06 May 2020 #15
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1487 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
But what is compassion?

I think that we have a taste of it in watching our child be born or our feeling for those that we become very attached to...but we share that with the animals. In us as humans, it seems that something more is missing, that something quite different and extraordinary, is called for. Something that isn't compatible with a 'self' image. Something that has no boundary..and without that 'quality' (Love, Compassion?) man's ingenuity makes him often like a bull in a china shop, destroying, polluting, things around him ignorant of the consequences.

I think in us having/being this Compassion would be the 'blossoming' that K.and others have spoken about, our 'birthright' perhaps? Though that possibility does look doubtful at this point in our evolution, doesn't it?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 06 May 2020.

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Wed, 06 May 2020 #16
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Compassion is very simple. It's caring. You see someone suffering and you feel it. If anything can be done, it is done.

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Wed, 06 May 2020 #17
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott: Something that isn't compatible with a 'self' image. Something that has no boundary...

idiot: Compassion is very simple. It's caring. You see someone suffering and you feel it. If anything can be done, it is done.

First of all, do we have compassion? Do we care? Let's start with ourselves.

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Wed, 06 May 2020 #18
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1487 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
, do we have compassion? Do we care?

As I said it's limited, it's selective. Same with "care".

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Wed, 06 May 2020 #19
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Compassion is very simple. It's caring. You see someone suffering and you feel it. If anything can be done, it is done.

Compassion is not sympathy or feeling sorry for someone. Compassion means passion for all. Having no prejudice.

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Thu, 07 May 2020 #20
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott: As I said, it's limited, it's selective. Same with "care".

One Self: Compassion is not sympathy or feeling sorry for someone. Compassion means passion for all. Having no prejudice.

So do we have passion for all? I do not. Are we free of all prejudice? I am not. Therefore are we in the same place with this or are we standing in two different spaces?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Thu, 07 May 2020.

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Thu, 07 May 2020 #21
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1487 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
So do we have passion for all?

Compassion is a state of being. It can't be present when there is a self-image that psychologically divides oneself from the rest of the world, can it?

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Are we free of all prejudice?

There can't be freedom from all prejudice when there is a self-image that is a product of judgement, likes and dislikes, etc, can there?

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Thu, 07 May 2020 #22
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

The word passion comes from the Latin word pati which neans to endure. Enduring the suffering...

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Thu, 07 May 2020 #23
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott: Compassion is a state of being. It can't be present when there is a self-image that psychologically divides oneself from the rest of the world, can it? ... There can't be freedom from all prejudice when there is a self-image that is a product of judgement, likes and dislikes, etc, can there?

Then let's dig deeper still. Is there a self-image at work? Here and now, I am talking about, not in some hypothetical scenario.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Thu, 07 May 2020.

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Thu, 07 May 2020 #24
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1487 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Is there a self-image at work? Here and now

There is a transiency about it, isn't there?. It comes and goes. It arises with 'desire', in the 'search'...it is present in one's conclusions, beliefs, attachments, etc. But it is probably always present in one level or another. The brain has found a security in creating that 'wall. As in one's dreams, the 'reality' there, of one's situation is rarely if ever questioned. But here/now the reality of my situation is in question because of insight into the totality of the belief about the reality of what I am, where I am, what 'I know' etc.

Can there be 'Compassion' as long as that wall exists? As long as the brain has restricted itself to 'knowing'? Fearful of the unknown...of not knowing?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 07 May 2020.

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Fri, 08 May 2020 #25
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott: There is a transiency about it, isn't there? It comes and goes. It arises with 'desire', in the 'search'... it is present in one's conclusions, beliefs, attachments, etc. But it is probably always present in one level or another.

I don't know. That's all. Anything else is the image at work. Anything that says 'probably' is of the image. Do you see what I am saying?

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Fri, 08 May 2020 #26
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1487 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
I don't know. That's all. Anything else is the image at work.

Yes, The process of psychological "knowing" is the construction and retention of images by thought/brain. The images are always of the past. They are relatively static though they can be updated, deleted, changed, etc but they keep the 'center' the same, the 'me'. So when the 'me' says "I don't know", does it mean "I don't know, but I will know at some point"? "When I get more information, I will know"?

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Fri, 08 May 2020 #27
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott: So when the 'me' says "I don't know", does it mean "I don't know, but I will know at some point"? "When I get more information, I will know"?

I don’t know. So first of all, find out if it is just the ego saying all this. It may not be the ego speaking.

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Fri, 08 May 2020 #28
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1487 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
. So first of all, find out if it is just the ego saying all this.

When you say "first of all", you are leading us somewhere aren't you? You've said that "you don't know" so how do you 'know' what is required for us to find out "first of all"?...If you have 'found' something, why not just share it here and let us look at it? Whether we will be able to grasp (hear) it, is up to us. Does that make sense?

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Fri, 08 May 2020 #29
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

We don't think,we merely rearrange thought. Thinking implies going above and beyond thought. Not rearranging thought.

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Fri, 08 May 2020 #30
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott: When you say "first of all", you are leading us somewhere aren't you? You've said that "you don't know" so how do you 'know' what is required for us to find out "first of all"?...If you have 'found' something, why not just share it here and let us look at it? Whether we will be able to grasp (hear) it, is up to us. Does that make sense?

I understand exactly what you are saying. But who is saying, ‘I don’t know’? That’s the question. Is there an ego behind this statement, a centre, a personality as the 'me'? In which case there will always be the hidden desire to know what to do, to find the best answer, to reach a satisfactory conclusion. Or, it’s a fact that I don’t know; and then there’s a completely different dimension of consciousness where the nature of the question and the manner of the questioning are much more important than any answer. For example, it is like someone asking, ‘Do you love me?’ The ego has an immediate answer to such a question. But the fact is I don’t know anything at all about love. In other words, I haven't got an answer; but the question is still right there.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Fri, 08 May 2020.

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