Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Again watching the movie of K, a Buddhist scholar, and others


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Sun, 08 Mar 2020 #1
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

I am again watching the movie that Ken D. recommended that has K talking with a Buddhist scholar and several members of K's entourage. You can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np57tASzQyc. I'm going to comment as I re-watch it. I hope to make it all the way through this time. I welcome comments by others.

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Sun, 08 Mar 2020 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

The video starts with a rather dry talk from the Buddhist scholar for about 5 minutes. He seems very pleased that from the Buddhist point of view, whatever is reborn is neither the same nor different, like a 50 year old is neither the same nor different from his 10 year old past self. But rebirth in Buddhism is actually quite confusing and complex. They want to have something reborn after death. Yet they have the complex of issue of no self. With no self, what can be reborn? Some Buddhists say it is your karma that is reborn. To me reincarnation or rebirth or whatever you want to call it is nonsense and there is no good evidence for it and no good evidence of any mechanism that achieves it.

Next K starts speaking and immediately he asks the listeners to take a journey with him, to explore together. But I am old and can no longer buy it. He is talking and we are listening. We can consider what he says carefully but I have no input into what he is saying. Sometimes his "Let's go into the question together" seems like nothing more than a ploy for you to let down your guard and critical thinking.

He soon gets into "You are the world." Again I do not buy this. Of course, humans have similarities in things we think and feel. But we are not the same. Some of us, like Donald Trump, have no empathy. Most of us do. K says inwardly we have the same guilt. Do we? Who knows! Again Trump has no guilt and neither do other psychopaths. And normal people may have more or less of it. Lots of people have no guilt or very little. Others much more. Did K have guilt? Who knows. We are not the same. We are different. Many of us may have some similarities. But you are not the world. To say you are is to gloss over the differences.

The truth is there are both similarities and differences among us. We are not one. When I eat my fill, others in the world still go hungry. The point of K's saying you are the world is to make you feel a bit less separated, a bit more connected with everyone else. He's edging us toward that emphasis rather than our normal separated feeling. But the truth is we are both. We have commonality and difference.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 08 Mar 2020.

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Sun, 08 Mar 2020 #3
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Next he gets into "Consciousness is its content." Again I question this. Without getting into the whole unsolved scientific problem of consciousness, clearly a brain in a body is conscious and it may be conscious of something else.

The irony is that these oneness tricks, "you are the world," "consciousness is its contents," are the very same ones that some Buddhists have been pushing for centuries. There are Zen masters that say consciousness is its content. It is about psychological oneness, something vital to explore and understand. To discover silence of mind before there is separation of one thing from another, by thought, is essential. But again, when I eat, someone else still goes hungry. When I slap my leg you don't feel it. There are important ways in which oneness is false.

To me, a blanket oneness statement is only partly true. Or, to put it cleverly, the complete is not complete if it doesn't include the incomplete. (Complete being oneness and incomplete being separateness.)

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 08 Mar 2020.

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Sun, 08 Mar 2020 #4
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 158 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But rebirth in Buddhism is actually quite confusing and complex

I like to say (having dabbled in Buddhism) that it is the self that has a tendancy to be reborn (every few nanoseconds, no need to wait for death)

Look, see, let go

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #5
Thumb_coa104 Ken D United States 18 posts in this forum Offline

I've come across another valuable resource...The Krishnamurti Podcast. Here is a link to an interesting interview, quite new to me, involving a conversation between Krishnamurti and a Jesuit priest by the name of David O'Hanlon. The intriguing part is one hour and nineteen minutes into the dialogue where it becomes obvious that the Jesuit is quite baffled, not surprisingly, by the phrase "freedom".

https://krishnamurti.podbean.com/e/conversation...

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #6
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
The intriguing part is one hour and nineteen minutes into the dialogue where it becomes obvious that the Jesuit is quite baffled, not surprisingly, by the phrase "freedom". https://krishnamurti.podbean.com/e/conversation...

Thank you, Ken. Another long video I'll try to get to eventually.

Meanwhile I'm working my way through the Buddhist one again. I think I should refrain from commenting as I go because I'm largely repeating myself from the thread where we originally discussed it. I'll start bloviating again when I get to the section of the Buddhist video that is new to me.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #7
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

At 14:50 in the Buddhist video, K says, "Let's discuss. You may disagree completely."

I do. Had I been there the discussion could have gone on hours more. But I can only complain now, long after the fact.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #8
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

At 21 minutes:

MZ: Is there something else in man except the river?

K: Nothing! No atman, no soul, no God, nothing.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #9
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

I've reached the part of the video where K is talking about the stream of common human consciousness. He is very, very clear in his description of this stream but I don't think any of the people there really get this. Do any of us really get this? It's a very important point that we all share the common traits of fear, loneliness, despair etc but do we never, ever step out of this stream? Are we always limited by the whole content of this common consciousness that we share?

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #10
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
He is very, very clear in his description of this stream but I don't think any of the people there really get this. Do any of us really get this?

Most of them say they get it.

I simply do not agree with the stream thing. First of all, it's a metaphor. There's no actual river. It's a representation, and as such, it is already removed from reality, already emphasizing some aspects of reality and smoothing over others.

It's a metaphor for the onrush of the common travail of mankind, the struggle with fear, loneliness, sadness, etc. and also the opposites, all of which are temporary and somehow unsatisfactory. But it's a trick. The point of the trick is to say that when an apparently separate self dies, the onrush goes on. And then to say that there can be stepping out of the onrush. But K gets himself in a mess. How can a wave in the ocean leave the ocean? And so on.

I disagree with the initial premise. I disagree with "You are the world." I disagree with the statement that you and everything you think, the whole of the consciousness of man, is a stream. So everything that follows, that is logically built on it, is also untrue to me.

The sycophants surrounding K are willing to question him, but only so far. For the most part they take him as an authority, even when doing so clearly defies common sense.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 10 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #11
Thumb_coa104 Ken D United States 18 posts in this forum Offline

Well, Krishnamurti sort of paints himself into a corner here. If we are nothing more than stream debris, what steps out of this mess? I believe one of the Buddhists asks where is the intelligence which sees all this...is it in the stream or outside of it. If there is a clarifying link here, I can't discover it.

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #12
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Now at around 43 minutes K gets to insight. He says, "Insight isn't in the stream." So now he is contradicting what he said earlier. Before, Mary Zimbalist asked, "Is there anything that's not in the stream?" and at 21 minutes he said, "Nothing!" Then at 43 minutes he says, "insight." So he finally he weasels out of his earlier statement and answers her question. Apparently "discovering together" can mean K figuring things out as he goes along. I'll grant you that to him he is referencing direct experience. But that doesn't mean that a clumsy house of cards is not being constructed as he tries to translate that experience into an intelligible explanation.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #13
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

From the video time of about 1 hour, K seems to get into all his standard stuff: No religions, no authority, conditioned and specific love are not really love, we don't see the truth and step out of the stream right now so we invent time and say it will happen later... Last time I watched this I bailed at this point. But now I must press on. Will he get back to weaseling out of the fact that the stream cannot step out of the stream? I doubt it. One word, "insight," solves it? Insight being freedom from the known, from religions, from authority, and directly investigating without impediments, with freedom, yet not escaping, not being apart. But the stream is impediments. You are the stream. Yet insight is stepping out of the stream.

Very briefly K asks, What is the nature of the mind of the one who steps out of the stream? But he quickly discards that inquiry as speculative. Nevertheless, obviously the nature of the mind of stepping out is naturally silent, not bound up in thought.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #14
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

At 1 hour 20 minutes, K asks the Buddhist scholar about Buddhist meditation. The question is, of course, a trap. K expects the Buddhist to talk about method, system, technique, cultivation, things like that. Hilariously, the Buddhist doesn't fall into that at all! He uses Buddhist terms but otherwise pretty much exactly describes the same thing K does. This is very funny.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #15
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Okay, I finally made it all the way to the end of the video. At the end K seemed silly to me to insist on a difference between "attention" and "awareness." They are just words the same as Buddhist terminology are words. If anything, to me "attention" implies will and choice more than "awareness," exactly the opposite from the point K is trying to make.

Well, interesting video.

Don't take Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, etc. as authority. Well, of course. Don't take K as authority. Yes, also. But quite difficult now that we are so contaminated by him!

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 10 Mar 2020.

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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5795 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Don't take Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, etc. as authority. Well, of course. Don't take K as authority. Yes, also. But quite difficult now that we are so contaminated by him!

Don't you and some others on here ever get tired of whining? The problem is not with K but rather with you. You came into this making K your authority, having an image of K, and when reading what he spent his life pointing out didn't miraculously bring about a change in you, you blame him.

Start taking responsibility for your lives. Seeing what is true and what is false is your responsibility and no one else. Certainly not K's responsibility. I suggest you start by examining the image you obviously have of K and throwing it out. K is not important but rather what you can see, observe, let go of is.

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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5795 posts in this forum Offline

"Cultures create religions but not the religious man. The religious man comes into being only when the mind rejects culture, which is the background, and is therefore free to find out what is true. ...Such a person is not an American, an Englishman, or a Hindu but a human being; he does not belong to any particular group, race, or culture and is therefore free to find out what is true, what is God. No culture helps man to find out what is true. Cultures only create organizations which bind man."

BEGINNNING OF 5TH TALK in the OAK GROVE, August 20, 1955 as published in the book AS ONE IS.

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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 #18
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1930 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But quite difficult now that we are so contaminated by him!

One is responsible for one's own contamination - by K or by anyone else.

The teaching of K is not about contamination. One can only find out firsthand. (Or not - in which case continuing to bellyache about how he 'failed', or how he 'contaminated' "ME"!)

Get over it!

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 12 Mar 2020.

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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 #19
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1628 posts in this forum Offline

Thought being old must contaminate any challenge. The problem starts when thought tries to solve the problem with words and gestures.

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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 #20
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1628 posts in this forum Offline

The challenge is the fear of coronavirus expantion in the world . What is my response to that? If it is based on thought then it has already contaminated me .

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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 #21
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

By "contaminated" I mean that it is very easy for us to be conditioned by K. Just as K explains how looking at things from a Buddhist or Christian point of view limits your inquiry, takes away from your total freedom to inquire, so too can K conditioning. Instead of looking clearly and freshly, we can look with K colored eyes. And that's just as problematic as looking with Christian eyes or Muslim eyes.

Some of us also watch K video after K video or read K book after K book, piling on more and more conditioning. But if you stop to look for yourself, to observe for yourself, is that necessary or helpful?

So it is important to see what K really means by freedom and its importance. Then you can see how important it is to be free of him, too, yes?

Why do we find it problematic when someone paraphrases Krishnamurti? Isn't it because the paraphraser tends to latch on to certain aspects of K's teaching and ignore or miss other aspects? So it's better to let K speak for himself and just quote him. But this latching on to certain aspects is simply conditioning, K conditioning.

So when I talk about contamination, it means I want to see how I've K conditioned myself and look at that.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 12 Mar 2020.

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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 #22
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
My Favorite Krishnamurti Talk (Pretty Much Says It All)

Colombo, Ceylon, January 13, 1957

Thank you for posting this.

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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 #23
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1628 posts in this forum Offline

Angela Merkel the prime minister of Germany said that 60 to 70 percent of Germans will be contaminated by the corona virus .

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Tue, 17 Mar 2020 #24
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1628 posts in this forum Offline

Don't know what to say. Each will listen to what he or she wishes to believe. You don't listen to someone who tells the raw truth...You want to listen to what you believe to be true... That is the very flaw of the problem...

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Tue, 17 Mar 2020 #25
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1628 posts in this forum Offline

We have a society that is built on self-protective measures ...

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Thu, 19 Mar 2020 #26
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

I'm a bit slow watching this but I've got up to one hour on the video. It's good to see a dialogue where people can stop K and ask for clarification. Mary Zimbalist and Dr Parchure obviously knew K very well and are not afraid to ask questions that perhaps others wouldn't ask.

K seems frustrated at points that the people listening don't really grasp what he is saying about the stream of common consciousness. He even tells Dr Parchure that he's not really listening. Maybe it's just not possible to fully get this if you're still in the stream.

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