Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Reza Ganjavi interview with Dr. Scott Forbes


Displaying posts 91 - 120 of 144 in total
Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #91
Thumb_anigif Ken D United States 15 posts in this forum Offline

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/05/asia/india-rape-...

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #92
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Divorce Facts.

In the United States, there is one divorce approximately every 36 seconds. That's nearly 2,400 divorces per day, 16,800 divorces per week and 876,000 divorces a year.[iii]
The average length of a first marriage that ends in divorce is 8 years.[iv]
The probability of a first marriage ending in separation or divorce in the first 5 years is 20% and in 10 years is 33%.[v]
The average age for couples going through divorce is 30 years old.
On average, a person spends about two years thinking about divorce before taking action.
About 3 out of every 4 divorced people will remarry.[vi]
People wait an average of 3 years after a divorce to remarry (if they remarry at all).
Six percent of divorced couples end up remarrying each other.[vii]
The U.S. government stopped collecting detailed marriage and divorce statistics in 1996, so other data sources, such as the U.S. Census and independent researchers, are used to estimate divorce rates and other statistics.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #93
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The Woman’s Movement is a relatively recent phenomenon.

Do you mean the feminist movement ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #94
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

From Wikipedia

The feminist movement (also known as the women's movement, or simply feminism) refers to a series of political campaigns for reforms on issues such as reproductive rights, domestic violence, maternity leave, equal pay, women's suffrage, sexual harassment, and sexual violence, all of which fall under the label of feminism and the feminist movement. The movement's priorities vary among nations and communities, and range from opposition to female genital mutilation in one country, to opposition to the glass ceiling in another.

Feminism in parts of the Western world has gone through three waves. First-wave feminism was oriented around the station of middle- or upper-class white women and involved suffrage and political equality. Second-wave feminism attempted to further combat social and cultural inequalities. Although the first wave of feminism involved mainly middle class white women, the second wave brought in women of color and women from other developing nations that were seeking solidarity.[1] Third-wave feminism is continuing to address the financial, social and cultural inequalities and includes renewed campaigning for greater influence of women in politics and media. In reaction to political activism, feminists have also had to maintain focus on women's reproductive rights, such as the right to abortion. Fourth-wave feminism examines the interlocking systems of power that contribute to the stratification of traditionally marginalized groups.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #95
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

The only difference that I see in the above is the right for abortion . Do you think men don't become the victim of violence by wives ? Do men have equal opportunity ? Don't men also go through the sexual harassment by their wives in the US?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #96
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

:)

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 05 Feb 2020.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #97
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 931 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
One could argue that almost none of us love in the K sense. If that is so, there is no reason to single out marriage.

I'm not sure about this. There must be times when we act selflessly or perhaps with no self - when we put the interests of those we care for before our own. Whether it's our children, partner, brother, sister, parent or friend, we sometimes put their interests before our own and act accordingly. Is this loving in the K sense?

Ken D wrote:
Let's also not forget that he was speaking to an audience in India, which does not present the most sterling example of respect for women. This brutality is still rampant in India to this day. Pick up any newspaper.

I also think that this is a very good point. The context of where and when K was speaking is of importance and this did not strike me when I read the quote.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #98
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 757 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Whether it's our children, partner, brother, sister, parent or friend, we sometimes put their interests before our own and act accordingly. Is this loving in the K sense?

No. Even the most violent, brutal crime boss "loves" his family and puts them first sometimes. But that isn't love in the K sense.

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, On Love:

Where there is no respect, there is no love; where there is no mercy, no pity, no forgiveness, there is no love. And as most of us are in this state we have no love. We are neither respectful nor merciful nor generous. We are possessive, full of sentiment and emotion which can be turned either way: to kill, to butcher or to unify over some foolish, ignorant intention. So how can there be love?

...

Love cannot be thought about, love cannot be cultivated, love cannot be practised. The practice of love, the practice of brotherhood, is still within the field of the mind, therefore it is not love. When all this has stopped, then love comes into being, then you will know what it is to love. Then love is not quantitative but qualitative. You do not say, ”I love the whole world” but when you know how to love one, you know how to love the whole. Because we do not know how to love one, our love of humanity is fictitious. When you love, there is neither one nor many: there is only love. It is only when there is love that all our problems can be solved and then we shall know its bliss and its happiness.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 05 Feb 2020.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #99
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1470 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Even the most violent, brutal crime boss "loves" his family and puts them first sometimes. But that isn't love in the K sense.

It's a form of possession isn't it? Sentiment extending from a 'center' that has very prescribed limits.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #100
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 931 posts in this forum Offline

Idiot? And Dan, are you saying that you have never acted in a truly selfless manner in your life? That there has always been some element of self-interest in all your actions??

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #101
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1470 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
That there has always been some element of self-interest in all your actions??

We may not be talking about the same thing. If I inadvertently knock something over and my body acts instantaneously to catch it, I would say that there is no element of 'self' in that action. In cases I have read about where someone risks their life to save someone, a child from an auto, a swimmer from a shark, pull a suicidal person to safety, etc., where their own life is put in grave danger by that action, they say that they don't know why they did it, they just acted immediately...To me that says that they acted before thought/self had time to calculate, or assess the body's action. That would be a 'selfless' act to me. Perhaps you are thinking of 'selfless' in a different way?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #102
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

I was cleaning out the old chicken house today when I suddenly found that I had disturbed a hibernating doormouse. Even though he was now lying completely unprotected in the grass, he refused to wake up. I decided to make him a new nest in an old basket and some hay; and leave the spring cleaning until spring.
Don't know if this is truly selfless action or just the action of myself.

Look, see, let go

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #103
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1470 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
Don't know if this is truly selfless action or just the action of myself.

A nice thing to do in my book. But if it made you 'feel good', it's probably just that wily old 'self'?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #104
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3176 posts in this forum Online

I decided to make him a new nest in an old basket and some hay; and leave the spring cleaning until spring.
Don't know if this is truly selfless action or just the action of myself.

Some mass murderers loved their pets. I think Hitler loved a little stray dog back in his army days. And later I think he showed affection for a different dog.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #105
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

Maybe conditioning from watching too many Disney movies.

Look, see, let go

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #106
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Ken D wrote:

Let's also not forget that he was speaking to an audience in India, which does not present the most sterling example of respect for women. This brutality is still rampant in India to this day. Pick up any newspaper.

Sean: I also think that this is a very good point.

A good point to escape and ignore Krishnamurti categorically?
Now we can conclude that what k said in India is different than what he said in England. Or what K said belongs to the past! There is no need for self knowledge in today's world. How about that? See how mischievous your mind plays.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #107
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 931 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas, your kindness to the "wee, sleekit, coorin', timorous beastie" sounds like it was selfless to me. I don't imagine you had to think too much about what action to take, did you?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #108
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 931 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, I have a vague recollection of K giving the example of a selfless act where a parent puts the interest of their child before their own self-interest but I imagine I'll never be able to find the quote. I'll have a try though.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #109
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

I didn't feel I had much choice with the doormouse.

If looking out for our children is also considered a selfless act - maybe intelligence is about widening the circle of self.

Look, see, let go

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 06 Feb 2020 #110
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Selfless means without the self does it not?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 06 Feb 2020 #111
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

On this forum it probably does.
According to my Dictionary, Selfless means: "caring more for what other people need and want rather than for what you yourself need and want"

Compared to Compassion: "a strong feeling of sympathy and sadness for the suffering or bad luck of others and a wish to help them"

My Dictionary doesn't seem to care about the idea that the self might not exist.

Look, see, let go

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 06 Feb 2020 #112
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Let's accept it , we can't be free. The fact is that we don't know how to live . We know how to argue very cleverly and ruthlessly. Everything that Krishnamurti said is very beautiful for us but our brains are beyond repair. It is too late to change. Might as well 'let it be' as the Beatles said.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 06 Feb 2020 #113
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 931 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
One could argue that almost none of us love in the K sense.

I've been reflecting on this. It seems that in a relationship if there is any jealousy or attachment at all, then that is not the love that K is talking about. In an earlier message I asked if we ever acted in a way that was selfless. To be clearer, I mean to ask if we ever act with the self not being present. This could be in a relationship with someone else or just merely observing. Do we ever observe a tree, a flower or anything else with all our attention? If we observe with all our attention, is the self present? Of course, we have the problem of setting out to do something for gain, trying to become someone or all the other tricks thought plays. But observing with attention just to see what happens is surely something worth experimenting with.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 06 Feb 2020 #114
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1470 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
But observing with attention just to see what happens is surely something worth experimenting with.

I'd say that it is all important. There has to be a clarity of how the thinking process is related to the other senses. There ultimately has to be discernment on the part of thought as to its 'proper' relationship. For example when it crosses the line and rather than be one of the 'crew', takes on the role of 'captain'. (Which it does almost constantly!) There has to be awareness of that, not suppression, which can only come through experimenting with seeing, hearing, listening, touching, tasting etc. The difficulty I find is that thought does have a role in all these that is useful, necessary, etc, but it is its "identification" with the senses that creates the observer/observed, thinker/thought split.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 06 Feb 2020 #115
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
it is its "identification" with the senses that creates the observer/observed, thinker/thought split.

Why does one identifies oneself with anything, is that of any use other than conflict ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 06 Feb 2020 #116
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
it is its "identification" with the senses that creates the observer/observed, thinker/thought split.

Why does one identifies oneself with anything, is that of any use other than conflict ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 07 Feb 2020 #117
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 757 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
One could argue that almost none of us love in the K sense.

Sean Hen wrote:
I've been reflecting on this.

To me, it's not helpful to look back on my life and say, "Why, yes, there was a moment when the self was not and love was." That's just the brain evaluating itself. Even if there was a moment without self, to recall it and consider it, is to freeze it into a memory and pour mud all over it.

To me, what's important is read or listen to what K said about love, and how he negated many common understandings of the word. Love is not possession, is not sentimental, is not narrowly for one person or one group over another. Don't we have fervor for our mate, or our family, or our country, and call that love, when it is nothing more than division? So I need to ask myself if I have that misunderstanding. When K says that love is not putting out a begging bowl, it points me to asking whether I have any expectation in my supposed loving relationship. Do I have any expectation of reciprocation whatsoever?

What's important is to strip away the false, the assumed, the believed. Then one can arrive at don't know. And don't know is extremely important. K says we must approach love negatively because love is the unknown. Therefore we must strip away the known. It is important to thoroughly strip away the known.

Clearly, love, caring for the whole, total caring, a feeling beyond any description or understanding, can only come to the silent mind. Isn't that so? And only action that comes out of the silent, clear mind can be loving action, yes?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 07 Feb 2020.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 07 Feb 2020 #118
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1470 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Clearly, love, caring for whole, total caring, a feeling beyond any description or understanding, can only come to the silent mind. Isn't that so? And only action that comes out of the silent, clear mind can be loving action, yes?

Yes, the "silent mind".

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 07 Feb 2020 #119
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Why does one identifies oneself with anything, is that of any use other than conflict ?

We humans don't do anything unless there is some kind of pleasure in it. We are physically and psychologically very similar to rats.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 07 Feb 2020 #120
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5790 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Clearly, love, caring for the whole, total caring, a feeling beyond any description or understanding, can only come to the silent mind. Isn't that so? And only action that comes out of the silent, clear mind can be loving action, yes?

Really? Is this something you have discovered for yourself? Or are you just repeating something K has said so frequently? This whole thread, this whole forum/website has become, or perhaps always was, ridiculous.

Even with a knowledgeable moderator I have yet to see a K discussion group not fall apart. My wife and I once attended a small K discussion group here in Ojai where the moderator was Mary Zimbalist. This was well after K died, of course. The discussion soon devolved into several people disagreeing and primarily only interested in expressing their own views.

When people come into a discussion thinking they already know the answers it's over before it begins.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 91 - 120 of 144 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)